CV Rework Discussion

[Sunleader]

3 minutes ago, artic_99 said:

Well you accomplished one thing... I will try cvs out once again. But lol I still think this system is complete garbage. Nice profile Pic tho. 

 

Meanwhile I keep wondering just how you guys can have such Problems with AA.

 

I am not even exactly a Great CV Player.

I just Started Playing CVs in April/May

 

But I have absolutely no Problem Playing CVs and Still making Life Miserable for the Enemy.

Neither do I have any Problem Bombing Enemy Ships especially Ships with Weaker AA.

 

Now Pls note. I do on Purpose often Bomb the well known T10 AA Cruisers. Just for this Topic to then Post Screenshots here.

But Generally I am not usually going after these unless I see a Good Chance for an Strike on them.

 

 

 

But the Thing I really wonder about.

Do you really avoid Heavy AA and do you actually know how to Avoid Heavy AA ?

 

Because in case you dont know this.

Avoiding the Black Clouds that are in Front of you is not Avoiding Heavy AA.

The Black Clouds that are in Front of you are AA Shells that already Exploded.

So by the time you Reach them they wont do any Damage to you anymore.

 

And when your Hit by these Black Clouds yourself. You dont see a Black Cloud on Screen.

You just Suddenly Get alot of Damage.

 

You can Actually Zoom out completely.

Then you actually See the Explosion which is Causing the Massive Damage when you are Hit by Heavy AA.

And you also Notice. That the Black Puff from that Explosion actually only start going up behind your Squadron afterwards if you turn around the Camera.

 

You can do that in the Training Room to see how this actually Works.

You can also use this by for example putting a Kremlin or Minotaur there. And then practice Avoiding its AA by doing Maneuvers.

So you get a Hang on how to Approach it without getting Massive Damage Hits.

 

The Black Clouds are the Aftereffect of the Heavy AA. They are not the Heavy AA Themselves.

 

 

Here. Check this.

 

I just Flew Straight onto a Kremlin.

So it Hits me with the Black Clouds.

 

The Red Circled Clouds are the Two Clouds which actually hit my Squadron and Caused Damage to me.

While the Blue Circled Ones are the Clouds which landed around me without causing any Damage.

 

As you can Tell.

If I had made the Screenshot in Normal Camera. I would not have seen any of the Black Clouds. Because both of them Appeared to the Sides of my Squadron and only Affected Rear Planes at the Sides.

 

 

 

In the Second Screenshot you can See that the same Clouds now sitting behind me and no longer doing anything.

Again the Red ones are the Ones that had Hit me in the First Screenshot.

While the Blue Ones are the once which didnt do anything.

 

You can also See. That I afterwards Passed right through the Blue One on the Lower Right without taking any Additional Damage.

(The Red Plane got Shot down by Continues AA Fire)

 

 

 

 

 

 

I noticed this from a Friend.

Because he also complained about OP AA constantly deleting his Squadrons.

And I told him thats impossible unless he is Hit by Heavy AA.

He claimed however he is avoiding Heavy AA. But still gets his Squadrons Deleted.

 

I asked him to let me Watch his Game.

Thing is. When I watched him. He basicly only Avoided Flying into the Black Clouds. But if the Black Clouds were not in Front of him. He did no Evasive Maneuvers at all and thus of course got Heavy AA Hits.

Because he as well tought that Evading Heavy AA just means Flying around the Black Clouds.

 

 

Heavy AA is Evaded by Preemptive Evasive Maneuvers.

NOT by Flying around the Black Clouds.

You can Fly around the Black Clouds and will often Work. Because that Turn also counts as Evasive Maneuver and thus the Heavy AA Misses even if you didnt understand the System.

But it also causes alot of CV Players to basicly Invite Heavy AA Hits because when the Black Clouds are to both of their Sides.

They just Fly Straight because they dont want to Fly into the Black Cloud. But in this case. Flying into the Black Cloud would have been the right Choice because its already Harmless and you need to Change Course Regularily to Evade Heavy AA.

 

 

Heavy AA is an Invisible Shot which Predicts your Course and Fires at the Position where your Calculated to be in a Set Interval.

So to Avoid it. You need to Change Course in that Interval or Faster than that Interval so your never in the Place that was Calculated in this Interval.

 

 

 

[COPlUM]

Just returned to the game after a 2 year break, everything is permanently spotted, being a destroyer is entirely pointless, you can't hide, you can't sneak, stealth was effectively removed from the game. They gave me months of free premium for coming back and am uninstalling after 10 matches.

With this CV rework you can't be a BB because you'll eat tons of torps coming from nowhere, you can't be a DD because what's the point if everything is spotted permanently. I guess you can be an AA focused cruiser?

 

They could have given me a five years free premium and a million doubloons, not playing this freaky version of world of warships where everything is permanently spotted. What the hell happened to this game? I was wondering why nobody caps, figured out soon enough, you get spotted and blown out of the water instantly by planes. I'm laughing my tits off looking at the minimap, no destroyer is even going anywhere near cap.

[Guest]

10 hours ago, Sunleader said:

You are not Supposed to be able to Bomb anyone without taking any Plane Losses.

 

I disagree with that.

Sorry, if the camping BB [insert well knwon name here] is alone with his brand new (or even old) T10 BB, has no AA modules and no AA skills, maybe even a brand new 0 point captain... and even a weak AA BB...

He deserves nothing else than being free damage!

For every class:

- planes

- torps

- IFHE

- just name it

He just deserves it.

But the new mechanic demands that I even have to loose 1 or 2 or even 3 planes to him?

Sorry, nothing can convince me to that.

[Sunleader]

1 minute ago, Alipheese_XV said:

 

I disagree with that.

Sorry, if the camping BB [insert well knwon name here] is alone with his brand new (or even old) T10 BB, has no AA modules and no AA skills, maybe even a brand new 0 point captain... and even a weak AA BB...

He deserves nothing else than being free damage!

For every class:

- planes

- torps

- IFHE

- just name it

He just deserves it.

But the new mechanic demands that I even have to loose 1 or 2 or even 3 planes to him?

Sorry, nothing can convince me to that.

 

By that Logic any Ship with these AA Modules Deserves to be 100% Immune from Aircraft Attacks and kill the entire Squadron before it can Drop a Single Bomb.

Otherwise its not Fair or Balanced.

 

But we dont have that either.

 

 

[Atris2nd]

2 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

 

By that Logic any Ship with these AA Modules Deserves to be 100% Immune from Aircraft Attacks and kill the entire Squadron before it can Drop a Single Bomb.

Otherwise its not Fair or Balanced.

 

But we dont have that either.

 

 

Eh, I'd beg to differ. With full AA build and full AA modules, my Cleveland is near immune to tier 10 carriers. And that's a tier 8. That's also a point I made previously, because I invested in these things, my ship is deadly in one region but it falls behind in others. That's why different builds exist. If a battleship player hasn't invested anything in anti-air, why is he being rewarded by shooting down scores of planes whilst also getting to distribute points and equip modules that make him deadly against other ships? Beats me, but that's what we're doing. 

 

So yeah, camping BBs without any anti-air skills and modules should be fodder. But they ain't. Instead a Montana can comfortably shoot down my whole strike squadron just as well as my fully AA-spec'd ships could but that Montana also gets to dish out 20-30k damage salvos, boast high armor, a lowered citadel and a high health pool. Go figure.

[artic_99]

Vor 25 Minuten, NikolayKuznetsov sagte:

Just returned to the game after a 2 year break, everything is permanently spotted, being a destroyer is entirely pointless, you can't hide, you can't sneak, stealth was effectively removed from the game. They gave me months of free premium for coming back and am uninstalling after 10 matches.

With this CV rework you can't be a BB because you'll eat tons of torps coming from nowhere, you can't be a DD because what's the point if everything is spotted permanently. I guess you can be an AA focused cruiser?

 

They could have given me a five years free premium and a million doubloons, not playing this freaky version of world of warships where everything is permanently spotted. What the hell happened to this game? I was wondering why nobody caps, figured out soon enough, you get spotted and blown out of the water instantly by planes. I'm laughing my tits off looking at the minimap, no destroyer is even going anywhere near cap.

Thx for that information. I don't know how I once made it into the top 100  Haku players on eu but well. If what you have telled me is true I can accept what you told me. I just played two games in cvs after 8.5 as I didn't saw a point even trying them out any further. The implacable game still makes me uncomfortable cuz even tho I scored 72k dmg I felt like I was not able to do anything for my team in order to win. Idk I had fun times in my surface ships in 8.5 aswell as before. Idk what I did wrong while playing them... 

Cheers and sleep well(don't rage to much on those topics cut I am tired of discussing that. 

[Sunleader]

2 minutes ago, Atris2nd said:

Eh, I'd beg to differ. With full AA build and full AA modules, my Cleveland is near immune to tier 10 carriers. And that's a tier 8. That's also a point I made previously, because I invested in these things, my ship is deadly in one region but it falls behind in others. That's why different builds exist. If a battleship player hasn't invested anything in anti-air, why is he being rewarded by shooting down scores of planes whilst also getting to distribute points and equip modules that make him deadly against other ships? Beats me, but that's what we're doing. 

 

So yeah, camping BBs without any anti-air skills and modules should be fodder. But they ain't. Instead a Montana can comfortably shoot down my whole strike squadron just as well as my fully AA-spec'd ships could but that Montana also gets to dish out 20-30k damage salvos, boast high armor, a lowered citadel and a high health pool. Go figure.

 

 

Mate no Offense.

But your Cleveland is about as Immune to a T10 CV as it is to AP Shells from a Yamato....

[Atris2nd]

Just now, Sunleader said:

 

 

Mate no Offense.

But your Cleveland is about as Immune to a T10 CV as it is to AP Shells from a Yamato....

I got that you mean no offense, you don't need to say it every time. 

 

And well, tough crap, Cleveland eats tier 10 planes for breakfast. Only times it's not decimating entire squadrons is if I'm camping an island and dive bombers hit me. I also got an Edinburgh and Kutuzov that aren't spec'd for anti-air and they do a remarkably good job of eating up planes like they're nothing.

[Sunleader]

Just now, Atris2nd said:

I got that you mean no offense, you don't need to say it every time. 

 

And well, tough crap, Cleveland eats tier 10 planes for breakfast. Only times it's not decimating entire squadrons is if I'm camping an island and dive bombers hit me. I also got an Edinburgh and Kutuzov that aren't spec'd for anti-air and they do a remarkably good job of eating up planes like they're nothing.

 

Want to test that with me in a Training Room?

I.ll Gladly Chunk your Cleveland into Pieces with my Hakuryou.

[xxNihilanxx]

6 minutes ago, Atris2nd said:

I got that you mean no offense, you don't need to say it every time. 

 

And well, tough crap, Cleveland eats tier 10 planes for breakfast. Only times it's not decimating entire squadrons is if I'm camping an island and dive bombers hit me. I also got an Edinburgh and Kutuzov that aren't spec'd for anti-air and they do a remarkably good job of eating up planes like they're nothing.

 

I suspect that, in this instance, the enemy CV is playing Pokemon with your flak clouds.

 

Decent CV players don't really do that.

[Atris2nd]

6 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

 

Want to test that with me in a Training Room?

I.ll Gladly Chunk your Cleveland into Pieces with my Hakuryou.

 

Yeah, cause that's a realistic scenario right? I'm not retarded, I play a cruiser like anyone else does and I support other ships, I don't yolo by myself. Within the context of a game with other players, the ship is extremely good at doing that despite being 2 tiers lower. I don't care about it in an isolated scenario cause it isn't representative of how the game actually plays. I'll humor you if you insist however.

 

5 minutes ago, xxNihilanxx said:

 

I suspect that, in this instance, the enemy CV is playing Pokemon with your flak clouds.

 

Devent CV players don't really do that.

 

Maybe they do, maybe they don't. It's the dinky machine guns that are the real danger this patch, not the flak. 

[Guest]

29 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

 

By that Logic any Ship with these AA Modules Deserves to be 100% Immune from Aircraft Attacks and kill the entire Squadron before it can Drop a Single Bomb.

Otherwise its not Fair or Balanced.

 

But we dont have that either.

 

 

 

Why?

No modules makes you immune to torps, IFHe or so.

I accept losses to AA ships, even if they don't specc AA.

I accept losses to weaker AA shisp if they go full AA.

But weak AA ship which goes nothing related to AA?

[Sunleader]

2 minutes ago, Atris2nd said:

 

Yeah, cause that's a realistic scenario right? I'm not retarded, I play a cruiser like anyone else does and I support other ships, I don't yolo by myself. Within the context of a game with other players, the ship is extremely good at doing that despite being 2 tiers lower. 

 

 

Maybe they do, maybe they don't. It's the dinky machine guns that are the real danger this patch, not the flak. 

 

I Figured as Much.

Because what you said is a Complete Lie.

 

The Cleveland even Fully AA Specced. Stands Zero Chance against a T10 CV.

Its not just not Immune. Its "Dinky Machine Guns" would not even Protect you from me doing a Second Strike with the same Squadron....

 

 

I have Proven so many Times in this Topic. That I can even Bomb Minotaurs and Worcesters in a T8 CV.

So the Idea that a Cleveland that even with all Available AA Upgrades wont even reach the Base Values of these Ships.

Could Possibly a T10 Aircraft Squadron is Lame even if you claimed it as a Joke...

 

 

 

 

[Atris2nd]

1 minute ago, Sunleader said:

 

I Figured as Much.

Because what you said is a Complete Lie.

 

The Cleveland even Fully AA Specced. Stands Zero Chance against a T10 CV.

Its not just not Immune. Its "Dinky Machine Guns" would not even Protect you from me doing a Second Strike with the same Squadron....

 

 

I have Proven so many Times in this Topic. That I can even Bomb Minotaurs and Worcesters in a T8 CV.

So the Idea that a Cleveland that even with all Available AA Upgrades wont even reach the Base Values of these Ships.

Could Possibly a T10 Aircraft Squadron is Lame even if you claimed it as a Joke...

 

 

 

 

Come on then, lets have a go. If anything, I'm curious how long it'll last. 

[Sunleader]

3 minutes ago, Alipheese_XV said:

 

Why?

No modules makes you immune to torps, IFHe or so.

I accept losses to AA ships, even if they don't specc AA.

I accept losses to weaker AA shisp if they go full AA.

But weak AA ship which goes nothing related to AA?

 

Nope.

And Not having even a Single Module to Counter HE or Torps. Will not Prevent you from Evading Torps or From Killing the DD who Fired them.

So why should a CV be Immune to Ships which dont have such Modules ?

 

 

[Sunleader]

3 minutes ago, Atris2nd said:

Come on then, lets have a go. If anything, I'm curious how long it'll last. 

 

Thats the Spirit.

[Atris2nd]

Sunleader and I conducted the experiment in a test room to see how everything performs and get some more definitive answers out of it and I'm happy to say we both came out surprised with the results.

 

For the purposes of the test I used my Cleveland with AA flags, the +2 flak AA module and a 10 point commander without manual AA. 

Sunleader used a Hakuryu and we ran 2 games to see how it performs. 

 

The results of the first game is based on these factors: I focused heavily on evading whilst switching sectors and employing defensive AA for maximum effectiveness. Sunleader used all 3 types of squadrons ( TBs, DBs and Rockets ). My Cleveland managed to evade every single torpedo thrown at it. It only took 1 citadel hit from the dive bombers however it suffered to the rocket planes which eventually ended it. 

This was the result of the first game. I wish to stress that about 10 of the planes thrown at me were more so throwaway planes used for the purposes of showcasing my patented ''dinky machine guns'' and their effectiveness. We found out that on average, with Sunleader focusing on avoiding flak entirely, the machine guns managed to shoot down 3 aircraft out of a 9 aircraft squadron. When he took damage from flak, he suffered considerably more losses/damage, which allowed the close-range AA to have an easier time chewing through the remaining aircraft. 

 

My opinion from this experiment is that the machine guns, by themselves, on an isolated target aren't quite as big of a threat as I considered them to be. I'm glad to have been proven wrong in that regard, however we came to a mutual consensus that when multiple ships have overlapping AA it becomes next to impossible to avoid the fire coming your way. Heavy AA is still possible to dodge, albeit considerably more difficult as each ship calculates trajectory and speed differently, resulting in a higher likelihood that a flak burst will hit your squadron and result in heavy losses even if you're doing your best to evade it. The light AA from the machine guns also adds up and starts to eat through planes far quicker, which is what gives the illusion of them simply evaporating under certain circumstances.

 

In our 2nd game, Sunleader focused purely on killing me, which meant he used only rocket planes alongside the fighter consumable. We're unsure whether this reduces concentrated anti-air or not but it did result in my Cleveland going down a good deal faster.

This was the result of the second experiment, concluding in 16 rocket plane kills. I am of the opinion that for my Cleveland configuration, it performed quite well and inflicted an almost unexpected amount of losses in this purely 1 on 1 environment. However on the whole I don't feel like AA was as astonishingly powerful as I believed it to be. My conclusion to this matter and my own personal opinion is that overlapping AA needs to have a sort of unified calculation that will make it so your planes don't instantly die whenever you enter an AA bubble.

 

Hitting isolated targets will allow you to whittle them down with planes, sometimes a lot, sometimes not so much but given the current state of play and how it mostly revolves around ships sticking together, I feel that CV effectiveness is neutered rather considerably and needs to be addressed in a way that isn't blatantly frustrating. 

 

I was happy to carry out the test with Sunleader and he was a great fellow to work with. It was fun and he taught me a few things about Graf Zeppelin that I'm looking to try out soon. Hope you all read this and consider the matter with this more detailed showcase. 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Sunleader said:

The Black Clouds are the Aftereffect of the Heavy AA. They are not the Heavy AA Themselves.

 

I am curious about this:

So I have to handle heavy AA like WG didn't animate the actual explosion, but the "aftereffect" (the black dust or how you would call it in english)?

 

Would this also explain the few times where I didn't see any explosions but the rest of my squad evaporating faster then when a fighter cosumable is behind them?

[Sunleader]

12 minutes ago, Atris2nd said:

Snip

 

Well then.

First off my Respect for going and testing this with me. As I said before. Words have little weight when you cant back them up. So going out and actually producing Results is always something that goes a long way in an Argument.

 

I hereby aslo Confirm that the Results of the Test are Correct as well. We both Tested this in a Training Room. As he Described. 

The First Match being mostly for Showcasing. So I Tried to DB him and Torp Him and only after that used Assaults on him. 

The Second Match me Seriously trying to get him Killed with Assaults. :)

 

Now then. I must Admit. I am Impressed by the Cleveland being this Powerful. The losses in the First Match were Expected as I fooled about.

But in the Second Match I seriously tried to Sink him. And while I did Reliably get 2 Strikes in. I did take way more Losses than I Expected. Usually losing about 4-5 Planes in an Attack.

I am surely going to consider Squad Shortening when I want to Hit a Cleveland in the Future. As it really Costs Planes otherwise.

 

For most Part I can Agree with the End Result of his Comment.

I do Disagree on one Part Tough. I dont consider CVs to be Frustrating right now. This might be because I am much more of an RTS Player. So Playing Strategical and doing Scout and Harassing Maneuvers instead of Attacking for the First few Minutes of Game. Until the Enemy Fleet has Split into smaller Groups. Is not really bad in my Eyes.

 

But thats my Personal Preference. If he doesnt have Fun in doing that. I cant very well Argue on his Personal Taste.

[Guest]

@Atris2nd

@Sunleader

 

Just to ask while I am fully aware that just 2 games is not a full testing:

Should I handle light cruisers more like DDs and use mostly Rocket planes on them?

[Atris2nd]

3 minutes ago, Alipheese_XV said:

@Atris2nd

@Sunleader

 

Just to ask while I am fully aware that just 2 games is not a full testing:

Should I handle light cruisers more like DDs and use mostly Rocket planes on them?

From what Sunleader showcased as the more experienced CV player, I think it's a more case by case basis myself. Some CVs work well with dive bombers while others not so much. Graf Zeppelin if played correctly can get a ton of use out of her dive bombers on cruisers. But it depends on the ship. Rockets seem to be the way to go from what I could tell as a whole though.

[Sunleader]

4 minutes ago, Alipheese_XV said:

 

I am curious about this:

So I have to handle heavy AA like WG didn't animate the actual explosion, but the "aftereffect" (the black dust or how you would call it in english)?

 

Would this also explain the few times where I didn't see any explosions but the rest of my squad evaporating faster then when a fighter cosumable is behind them?

 

Nope. This is Actually Realistic lol.

 

An AA Burst Shells. Are Shells which are basicly Splinter Grenades. They Explode on a Timer. And then Shatter Shrapnel in all Directions.

The Black Smoke appears afterwards due to the Explosives Burning away. But by the Time the Black Smoke Appeared. The Shrapnel already had Shot in all Directions.

For B17 Bomber Crew in WW2 for example this was one of the most Horrifying Aspects on their Bombing Runs. Because they could See the Black Smokes coming Closer as the Gunners on the Ground Adjusted their Aim.

But when they were Hit. The Shrapnel actually Shot through the Aircraft and Perforated its Hull before the Black Cloud of the Explosion actually Appeared.

Moreover. The Black Smoke was very small compared to the actual Radius of the Shrapnel. Very often a B17 Bomber was Hit by Shrapnel and the Black Cloud Formed 10 or 20 meters away.

Direct Hits by such Shells were usually Devastating and Effectively Destroyed the Aircraft. Because it literally Shattered the Planes Structure wherever it Hit.

 

To Evade AA. You have to Evade Preemptively. Heavy AA Calculates your Trajectory. And will Shoot in your Path. So you Change Course constantly. So the Calculation is Off and the AA Misses you.

You can actually Test this yourself. When you Open a Training Room and then put a Heavy AA Cruiser there. Approach it with Aircraft. And then just keep Pointing your nose to the Right and to Left again. To the Right and to the Left again.

You will notice that the AA Bursts will then constantly Change from being to your Right and then to your Left again. Then to the Right and then to the Left again. Because thats where your Calculated Position would have been.

 

As for the Fighters. Ships do have Limited Heavy AA at least. So I think that Fighters take off some of this Fire from you. Because the Ships Aims some Shells in the Direction of the Fighters.

I do not know however if this really Reduces AA. Especially I dont know if it Affects Continues AA.

 

 

7 minutes ago, Alipheese_XV said:

@Atris2nd

@Sunleader

 

Just to ask while I am fully aware that just 2 games is not a full testing:

Should I handle light cruisers more like DDs and use mostly Rocket planes on them?

 

In General Yes.

Light Cruisers have very Little Armor. So they will take alot of Damage from Rocket Attacks. But it also Depends on your CV. The Shokaku and Haku have a real lot of Rockets. So they can Cause alot of Damage even to Heavy Cruisers.

The Graf Zeppelin has much fewer but also much Stronger Rockets. And actually Performs better against Heavy Cruisers with these Rockets than it does against DDs. But its AP Bombers are also much easier to Aim at Cruisers than other Nations Bombers. Because Graf Zeppelin Dive Bombers dont care if the Enemy Cruiser is Broadside or Coming Straight at you. While other Nations Dive Bombers have a Hard Time hitting you if you Show em Broadside.

With Kaga however I have very Few Rockets. And will Prefer HE Bombs against Cruisers. Because I just cant Deal enough Damage to them with the few Rockets Kaga has. The Good thing is. Kaga has HE Bombs. So you can Level out the Bombers and Drop very Flat. Which allows to also hit Cruisers and even DDs with HE Bombs from the Kaga.

 

So as Atris said. It really is a Case by Case Decision. I do however Really think I should say this. Do not Underestimate How Importand and Strong the Assault Planes are with their Rockets. Many Players somehow think these are only for DDs.

But they can actually be Really Strong against Cruisers as well. And in case of the Graf Zeppelin. The Big Rockets can even be used against Battleships. As in some cases they can even Penetrate a Battleships Deck Armor.

 

 

[El2aZeR]

PSA: Commands requiring more than 2 key inputs are sometimes no longer recognized by the game when piloting aircraft.

(E.g. pressing A + D to turn and wanting to press Y to heal will not allow you to trigger heal. This includes attack commands.)

 

This UI just becomes more and more pathetic with each patch. Even the ing RTS UI could do that.

[Sunleader]

18 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

PSA: Commands requiring more than 2 key inputs are sometimes no longer recognized by the game when piloting aircraft.

(E.g. pressing A + D to turn and wanting to press Y to heal will not allow you to trigger heal. This includes attack commands.)

 

This UI just becomes more and more pathetic with each patch. Even the ing RTS UI could do that.

 

Awww. This Explains a few things.... I had this several times lately that I wanted to Heal but could not do it while Evading Heavy AA....

[howardxu_23]

WG is being sneaky here, service costs of cvs are higher then same tier ships of other types.

Explains why I don’t earn as much for some reason.