CV Rework Discussion

[Sunleader]

13 minutes ago, AirSupremacy said:

I disagree with "Sorry but 0.8.4 AA was Simply entirely Useless and basically Completely Irrelevant to any CV unless he was Facing a Minotaur or Worcester.". I found the 0.8.4 AA with its flak bursts and the way how planes received DPS damage well balanced.

 

Of course you do.

If the only Class I wanted to Play was CV.

I as well would consider 0.8.4 Balanced.

 

Unfortunately. Unlike you. Other Players also Play other Ships.

And thus know just how Frustrating 0.8.4 was for anyone who is not a CV Player.

 

And thus the vast Majority of Players did absolutely not consider it Balanced that CVs barely ever lost any Planes due to the Damage being Spread out over the entire Squad and thus effectively going poof into nonexistence due to instant Repair back at the CV.

 

3 minutes ago, artic_99 said:

Well I was not complaining that aa is changed I complained how they did this. 8.5 is way to effective 8.4 would need some tweaking as I said before. Even with 8.4 aa most ships had the best aa since ever. You can't just balance a class by the top 5%of the players. It must be good for everyone so it can be played by more people. I made midway work kind of. I just attacked single targets and just one strike per target. I still lost 4-5planes. I did not hit the aa clouds. Idk it feels first boring to play like this and second even tho I attacked lone targets with only one strike per attack I was deplaned after 10 mins. 95k dmg in the end with no fun at all. It is no fun if you have to literally work for your damage. If WG stays on the path they have taken there will be less cv players then pre rework. Cuz only those 5 percent of superpros can make it work. I am none of them I got decent games xp wise but it's just no fun at all. 

 

No Offense Mate.

But I am not even Close to the Top 5% of the Players lol.

 

I am an Average Potato who Started Playing CVs last Month.

I picked up CVs solely because they are Overpowered and I wanted to Demonstrate that even an Average Potato like me.

Will easily Outperform any other Ship by simply getting a CV.

 

 

And Mate no Offense.

But 95k Damage is Absolutely ok.

And if you dont have Fun Playing when the Enemy can actually Shoot back at you.

Then your in the wrong Game.

If you want to Shoot at Targets that cant resist properly. Pls either Play against NPCs. Or Choose another Game.

Because Seriously. IT IS NOT FUN for the People who are Attacked by You. When they cannot actually Defend themselves.

 

Do you know how Frustrating it was in 0.8.4 when you were Playing a BB, Cruiser or DD.

And that CV basicly kept Attacking you over and over and over. And you did like 30k Damage to his Planes but never got a Kill on his Planes because the Damage just Spread out and thus didnt do anything ????

Do you know Frustrating it is when a Carrier is basicly Turning over your head with his Squadron despite your AA Sector being right at him. And just making one Drop after the other at you ???

 

Mate no Offense.

But for the last 6 Months.

the Only People who had Fun when CVs got Involved.

Was the CVs.

Everyone Else HATES CVS LIKE THE PLAGUE by now.

 

This Update.

Finally actually gives some Return Fire to Surface Ships.

And pls note. its not even really Stopping CVs.

Its barely Forcing them to actually Invest some Tought into their Attacks and Actually make some Effort if they want to Farm high Damage.

 

Sorry Man.

But if you dont have Fun with a CV unless your Targets are Helpless and cant even Shoot down your Planes.

Then CV is simply not the Right Class for you.

 

 

 

I would also have far more Fun in my BB when I just got Invulnearbility and could basicly just Drive into the Enemy Team all Guns Blazing and Massacre them while they can barely cause any Damage to me.

But Mate.

Thats not very fun for the others you know.

 

 

Others want to have Fun as well.

You cant just Demand that you have Fun alone in the Game by having the Mechanics act in a way that makes it near impossible for others to even Fight back against your Attacks.

 

[artic_99]

Vor 4 Minuten, Sunleader sagte:

 

Of course you do.

If the only Class I wanted to Play was CV.

I as well would consider 0.8.4 Balanced.

 

Unfortunately. Unlike you. Other Players also Play other Ships.

And thus know just how Frustrating 0.8.4 was for anyone who is not a CV Player.

 

And thus the vast Majority of Players did absolutely not consider it Balanced that CVs barely ever lost any Planes due to the Damage being Spread out over the entire Squad and thus effectively going poof into nonexistence due to instant Repair back at the CV.

 

 

No Offense Mate.

But I am not even Close to the Top 5% of the Players lol.

 

I am an Average Potato who Started Playing CVs last Month.

I picked up CVs solely because they are Overpowered and I wanted to Demonstrate that even an Average Potato like me.

Will easily Outperform any other Ship by simply getting a CV.

 

 

And Mate no Offense.

But 95k Damage is Absolutely ok.

And if you dont have Fun Playing when the Enemy can actually Shoot back at you.

Then your in the wrong Game.

If you want to Shoot at Targets that cant resist properly. Pls either Play against NPCs. Or Choose another Game.

Because Seriously. IT IS NOT FUN for the People who are Attacked by You. When they cannot actually Defend themselves.

 

Do you know how Frustrating it was in 0.8.4 when you were Playing a BB, Cruiser or DD.

And that CV basicly kept Attacking you over and over and over. And you did like 30k Damage to his Planes but never got a Kill on his Planes because the Damage just Spread out and thus didnt do anything ????

Do you know Frustrating it is when a Carrier is basicly Turning over your head with his Squadron despite your AA Sector being right at him. And just making one Drop after the other at you ???

 

Mate no Offense.

But for the last 6 Months.

the Only People who had Fun when CVs got Involved.

Was the CVs.

Everyone Else HATES CVS LIKE THE PLAGUE by now.

 

This Update.

Finally actually gives some Return Fire to Surface Ships.

And pls note. its not even really Stopping CVs.

Its barely Forcing them to actually Invest some Tought into their Attacks and Actually make some Effort if they want to Farm high Damage.

 

Sorry Man.

But if you dont have Fun with a CV unless your Targets are Helpless and cant even Shoot down your Planes.

Then CV is simply not the Right Class for you.

 

 

 

I would also have far more Fun in my BB when I just got Invulnearbility and could basicly just Drive into the Enemy Team all Guns Blazing and Massacre them while they can barely cause any Damage to me.

But Mate.

Thats not very fun for the others you know.

 

 

Others want to have Fun as well.

You cant just Demand that you have Fun alone in the Game by having the Mechanics act in a way that makes it near impossible for others to even Fight back against your Attacks.

 

If you feel that way its okay. 

But then again I played other ships then cvs in that period of time and I had fun. I killed 30+planes in my yamato several times. It felt like the strongest aa I ever saw on Yama (I also played it pre rework barley even touched planes).Then again no offense but which game are you playing? There where many cvs barley even get 80k dmg in their T10 cvs. I even saw people sinking themselves in 8.4 Cuz they felt so weak. The average bb dmg is far higher then the cvs average dmg so then again no offense but only good players good dominate others. 95k are not good according to the game as you need at least get 150k to get positive credits. Not to mention if you have 3 aa cruiser in the enemy team you don't need to start playing. So I just don't get your point sorry if you are right tho(and I am the luckiest [edited] on earth in my surface ships). 

[Sunleader]

25 minutes ago, artic_99 said:

If you feel that way its okay. 

But then again I played other ships then cvs in that period of time and I had fun. I killed 30+planes in my yamato several times. It felt like the strongest aa I ever saw on Yama (I also played it pre rework barley even touched planes).Then again no offense but which game are you playing? There where many cvs barley even get 80k dmg in their T10 cvs. I even saw people sinking themselves in 8.4 Cuz they felt so weak. The average bb dmg is far higher then the cvs average dmg so then again no offense but only good players good dominate others. 95k are not good according to the game as you need at least get 150k to get positive credits. Not to mention if you have 3 aa cruiser in the enemy team you don't need to start playing. So I just don't get your point sorry if you are right tho(and I am the luckiest [edited] on earth in my surface ships). 

 

Hmm. How do I get this Point Across then.

 

1.

I am sure there were. And when I remember that I regularily see CVs which miss me with Torpedoes or Drop them too short away from me.

Thus not causing any Damage despite me not even maneuvering to evade them.

I have a Good Idea how these Players manage to only do 30-50k in a Match.

2.

Actually this is not entirely True.

While Average Damage of some BBs is higher than that of CVs.

The Average Damage Total the CVs actually Rank higher for most Part.

And pls note. CVs at the same time also Rank higher in Spotting Damage and most other Stats.

Their KD Ratio is 3 times that of any other Class and thus that Good. That if you Combined the Kills of all 3 other Classes but only counted the Average of the 3 Classes Death against it. (Thus making it 2-3 times better)

The CVs would Still have a Better K/D Ratio.

 

Moreover.

BBs Top Score is Damage. Thats their Thing. The Special Skill they are Best at.

And CVs Equaled them on that.

But CVs on top of that also Easily Beat DDs in Spotting which is supposed to be their thing.

And on the side also Beat Cruisers on Support.

They were basicly better or Equal to ALL Classes in their Best Stats.

While Beating ALL Classes by a wide Marging in the Stats where they arent as Good.

Dont you think thats a little Unfair ?

 

I mean a BB might Equal a CV in Damage.

But it certainly is not Spotting, Defending the Base, Killing Planes, Rakes up the Kills or Survives as much as a CV.

 

 

3.

You need 150k to get Positive Credits ???

Since when that ?????

Most of the Time you dont even Die with the CV when you lose so you dont pay Maintenance for most of your Battles anyways.

I dont think I ever managed to get Negative Credits with a CV. And I had alot of Games where I did 50k Damage due to messing up.

And pls note I am excluding Premium CVs here cause in them I usually make several 100k Positive by Default due to their Bonus Income.

 

4.

Why would 3 AA Cruisers prevent me from Playing a Game ?

I can still Bomb a T10 AA Cruiser with a T8 CV.

So if they Spread out. I kill them.

If they stick together I simply avoid them.

And if they go Lemming Train with whole Enemy Team thus staying together and me being unable to Avoid them.

I will Simply Spot them. Because they are pretty sure to be Citadelled First in a Lemming Train as long as they are kept Spotted.

 

 

 

 

 

My Point making a Long Story Short.

Is that what you demand by Undoing the 0.8.5 Changes.

Is basicly that you get more Fun in Carriers again as you are able again to just Massacre and Harass other Players with Impunity again and without making much effort for it.

But at the same time.

11 other Players are Denied from having Fun again. Because they are once more living in Fear from CVs which they cant do anything about because even if they do like 20-30k Damage to their Planes they wont Shoot any Planes down due to the Damage being Spread out and thus no Planes actually Falling out of the Sky before they have Dropped all their Bombs at them.

 

 

I am merely Asking you.

To keep in Mind. That 0.8.4 allowed 2 CVs in the Match to have Fun. At the Expense of Denying Fun for 22 other Players.

These 22 other Players need to be taken into Consideration as well Mate.

 

 

Well then.

This is a Suggestion. Not a Discussion.

So I.ll leave it at that.

But I do Sincerely Hope. That you will start considering. That other Players are NOT here to be Frustrated for your Entertainment.

Everyone in this Game wants to have Fun.

Not just You.

And 0.8.4 was absolutely not Fun for non CV Players.

[artic_99]

Vor 6 Stunden, Sunleader sagte:

 

Hmm. How do I get this Point Across then.

 

1.

I am sure there were. And when I remember that I regularily see CVs which miss me with Torpedoes or Drop them too short away from me.

Thus not causing any Damage despite me not even maneuvering to evade them.

I have a Good Idea how these Players manage to only do 30-50k in a Match.

2.

Actually this is not entirely True.

While Average Damage of some BBs is higher than that of CVs.

The Average Damage Total the CVs actually Rank higher for most Part.

And pls note. CVs at the same time also Rank higher in Spotting Damage and most other Stats.

Their KD Ratio is 3 times that of any other Class and thus that Good. That if you Combined the Kills of all 3 other Classes but only counted the Average of the 3 Classes Death against it. (Thus making it 2-3 times better)

The CVs would Still have a Better K/D Ratio.

 

Moreover.

BBs Top Score is Damage. Thats their Thing. The Special Skill they are Best at.

And CVs Equaled them on that.

But CVs on top of that also Easily Beat DDs in Spotting which is supposed to be their thing.

And on the side also Beat Cruisers on Support.

They were basicly better or Equal to ALL Classes in their Best Stats.

While Beating ALL Classes by a wide Marging in the Stats where they arent as Good.

Dont you think thats a little Unfair ?

 

I mean a BB might Equal a CV in Damage.

But it certainly is not Spotting, Defending the Base, Killing Planes, Rakes up the Kills or Survives as much as a CV.

 

 

3.

You need 150k to get Positive Credits ???

Since when that ?????

Most of the Time you dont even Die with the CV when you lose so you dont pay Maintenance for most of your Battles anyways.

I dont think I ever managed to get Negative Credits with a CV. And I had alot of Games where I did 50k Damage due to messing up.

And pls note I am excluding Premium CVs here cause in them I usually make several 100k Positive by Default due to their Bonus Income.

 

4.

Why would 3 AA Cruisers prevent me from Playing a Game ?

I can still Bomb a T10 AA Cruiser with a T8 CV.

So if they Spread out. I kill them.

If they stick together I simply avoid them.

And if they go Lemming Train with whole Enemy Team thus staying together and me being unable to Avoid them.

I will Simply Spot them. Because they are pretty sure to be Citadelled First in a Lemming Train as long as they are kept Spotted.

 

 

 

 

 

My Point making a Long Story Short.

Is that what you demand by Undoing the 0.8.5 Changes.

Is basicly that you get more Fun in Carriers again as you are able again to just Massacre and Harass other Players with Impunity again and without making much effort for it.

But at the same time.

11 other Players are Denied from having Fun again. Because they are once more living in Fear from CVs which they cant do anything about because even if they do like 20-30k Damage to their Planes they wont Shoot any Planes down due to the Damage being Spread out and thus no Planes actually Falling out of the Sky before they have Dropped all their Bombs at them.

 

 

I am merely Asking you.

To keep in Mind. That 0.8.4 allowed 2 CVs in the Match to have Fun. At the Expense of Denying Fun for 22 other Players.

These 22 other Players need to be taken into Consideration as well Mate.

 

 

Well then.

This is a Suggestion. Not a Discussion.

So I.ll leave it at that.

But I do Sincerely Hope. That you will start considering. That other Players are NOT here to be Frustrated for your Entertainment.

Everyone in this Game wants to have Fun.

Not just You.

And 0.8.4 was absolutely not Fun for non CV Players.

First of all I said that aa would need tweaking. I know that often aa was to weak especially in low tiers. Second all my suggestions except the one with weaker aa are massive nerfs for cvs\buffs for surface ships. The surface ship which dies due to the cv eats most times more damage from other surface ships. By making the spotting system make like radar they would only take the damage the cvs are scoring. That damage is not really high and thus it would increase the survivability in a healthy manner. (not preventing cvs from playing) you could even go one step further and say only spotting on map. This would even increase those effects. As I play all classes in wows  (well dds not really Cuz I don't like them) I want all of them to have fun. It's not like I want to make this game a CV only nice experience. I want you to look at those nerfs. I don't want to make cvs incredibly hard to play and that's only possible if you take out some mechanics of the cv and keep the aa reasonably. I mean it's not like planes were immortal in 8.4 especially not Cuz anyone did an aa build on no matter what ship. It worked but people like you didn't see it work. Roma has a bad aa. I still killed 22 t8 planes once. I understand your argumentation but you know I want to make it fun for everyone not just me. Could you just pls agree that aa tweaking must be done for each ship alone and not for all ships together. I mean it's defently funny to spot a mino and already lost 2 planes until you can react. I saw many people complaining about 8.5. It made the game boring. A bb can now go alone on a flank and a low tier cv can't even dream about punishing that. 

To the economic situation.... 

The economic situation especially T10 was and is bad. Without wows premium you can't get positive credits as you will lose 80+planes and each loss increases the bill. When you do 95k dmg you will either lose 50k or 100k credits. Just saying. 

[Tugnut]

21 hours ago, Sunleader said:

 

They have headed back a little.

They are still FAAAR easier to Play than before.

 

And worse they are also still making the Game very Hard for DD Players.

So this is far from Fixed.

Dont think that will ever change!   was playing my Belfast and a guy on the enemy team was trying to get every one to report me for cheating LMFAO.. asked him after the game why i was cheating, He told me because i was playing a banned ship!

 

So all you dirty little cheats out there playing Belfasts... shame on you :P

 

but from tier 7ish def 8 and up you hit the Radar game, that added with aircraft spotting makes for a hard DD life....   maybe have the min attack range shorten on aircraft and lower air detect on DD's... they will find you in the end, but will take more time and harder to keep doing!

[Sunleader]

1 hour ago, artic_99 said:

First of all I said that aa would need tweaking. I know that often aa was to weak especially in low tiers. Second all my suggestions except the one with weaker aa are massive nerfs for cvs\buffs for surface ships. The surface ship which dies due to the cv eats most times more damage from other surface ships. By making the spotting system make like radar they would only take the damage the cvs are scoring. That damage is not really high and thus it would increase the survivability in a healthy manner. (not preventing cvs from playing) you could even go one step further and say only spotting on map. This would even increase those effects. As I play all classes in wows  (well dds not really Cuz I don't like them) I want all of them to have fun. It's not like I want to make this game a CV only nice experience. I want you to look at those nerfs. I don't want to make cvs incredibly hard to play and that's only possible if you take out some mechanics of the cv and keep the aa reasonably. I mean it's not like planes were immortal in 8.4 especially not Cuz anyone did an aa build on no matter what ship. It worked but people like you didn't see it work. Roma has a bad aa. I still killed 22 t8 planes once. I understand your argumentation but you know I want to make it fun for everyone not just me. Could you just pls agree that aa tweaking must be done for each ship alone and not for all ships together. I mean it's defently funny to spot a mino and already lost 2 planes until you can react. I saw many people complaining about 8.5. It made the game boring. A bb can now go alone on a flank and a low tier cv can't even dream about punishing that. 

To the economic situation.... 

The economic situation especially T10 was and is bad. Without wows premium you can't get positive credits as you will lose 80+planes and each loss increases the bill. When you do 95k dmg you will either lose 50k or 100k credits. Just saying. 

 

Nope.

The Problem with "Tweaking" is that its by far not an accurate enough Description of an Suggested Change as that I would possibly agree on it.

Even less when before this Tweaking your Suggestion is to Return to 0.8.4 AA which was entirely useless and could mostly be Ignored by CVs thus resulting in absurdly frustrating Experiences for other Players.

After all think about it. If you want this Tweaks instead of 0.8.5 then the Clear Reason is that these Tweaks are supposed to cause less losses to CVs than 0.8.5

But my Opinion is actually that 0.8.5 is not actually causing enough losses to many CVs yet. So I would actually Suggest to Buff AA Further.

 

Some CVs surely need a Buff due to this. Like the UK CV Line. Due to their Limited Reserves. Because they really Suffer if they are Uptiered. So these should get a Seperate Buff to either Plane Health or Reserves.

But most CVs simply needed to make minor Adaptions and change Playsytyle. And Several didnt even need to do that because they got Large Reserves or Fast Regeneration of Planes and thus can mostly Ignore the Losses anyways.

 

So Sorry. But I fear there is no Way I can Agree or Support this part of the Suggestion.

 

 

Also 2 Sidenotes.

I usually wont lose a Plane when Spotting a Mino. Its long Range AA is not very Strong only its Midrange AA is very Powerful.

And the Reason why mosty Ships take more Damage from Surface Ships. Is Simply because of the Number of Players.

There is 11 Surface Ships and 1 CV per Team. So of course a Target will usually have more Damage from Surface Ships. Otherwise the CV would effectively need to cause more Damage than 11 other Players Together.

If you check Players Seperately. You will actually notice. That most if the time your Target Received more Damage from you in your CV than from any Single Player that was Firing at him.

 

 

1 hour ago, artic_99 said:

Sorry if I posted this under the wrong topic I just felt it would be lost if I write it in another topic, due to many people just bitching around for the one or other side. 

 

I think what he is implying there is not that you posted in the wrong section.

But that in the past few Months any Suggestion, Complaint, Discussion etc Posted by other People.

Was Closed down and People were told to Discuss it in the CV-Rework Topic.

 

Of course during this time these Topics were almost all without Exception Anti CV and Suggesting Nerfs to CVs or Complaining about how Overpowered CVs are.

 

So now that several Topics including this one. Made by CV Players. Are allowed to Stand and Complain about the new AA Changes or making Suggestions to rollback these Changes or Replace them by something else etc etc.

Many of the Users which Suffered from Overpowered CVs are feeling Treated Unfairly about this. As their Topics usually got Closed down.

 

Moderation Team Stance seems to be that 0.8.5 made a Large enough Change to AA Mechanics that they are now Allowing Topics on this Seperately again.

At least that seems to be the case for now.

We will See what happens.

[Panocek]

5 minutes ago, Tugnut said:

but from tier 7ish def 8 and up you hit the Radar game, that added with aircraft spotting makes for a hard DD life....   maybe have the min attack range shorten on aircraft and lower air detect on DD's... they will find you in the end, but will take more time and harder to keep doing!

Or you could solve that by rolling back aerial detection buff and taking away "detected" info for squadron. That way CV have to pretty much stumble upon DD or have rough idea where it was before due to, I dunno, teamwork?

[Tugnut]

2 minutes ago, Panocek said:

Or you could solve that by rolling back aerial detection buff and taking away "detected" info for squadron. That way CV have to pretty much stumble upon DD or have rough idea where it was before due to, I dunno, teamwork?

that will be ok for mostly skilled CV players that will have an idea of what direction/postion a DD will take, but makes it very hard for unskilled CV players to combat.

[artic_99]

Vor 5 Minuten, Sunleader sagte:

Also 2 Sidenotes.

I usually wont lose a Plane when Spotting a Mino. Its long Range AA is not very Strong only its Midrange AA is very Powerful.

And the Reason why mosty Ships take more Damage from Surface Ships. Is Simply because of the Number of Players.

There is 11 Surface Ships and 1 CV per Team. So of course a Target will usually have more Damage from Surface Ships. Otherwise the CV would effectively need to cause more Damage than 11 other Players Together.

 

It's okay you have your opinion I have mine. But I still don't think you getting what a mean. 8.5 aa shreds planes even on weak aa ships like Musashi. The issue is that aa is beyond rngesus. You don't have to do anything to kill planes. Its like you said all about feeling. But the issue with that is that it doesn't matter whether you are a good player or a bad one you will lose the same amount of planes. And you can do nothing about it. NOTHING!!!!! skill should be rewarded dump play punished. 8.5 aa punishes anyone who dares play a CV. 8.4 aa could have been tweaked that some ships have great aa but then again some ships need to have garbage aa. That would have been the point of forcing cvs to look for the best target again. The issue is that with 8.5 even a Musashi has [edited]great aa. I killed 9 t8 planes (no fighters) in my shiratsuyu(1.9km aa range). That's clearly to much. I hope no you can understand better what I mean by tweaking. And then again pls give me an option to make this point better for you like what you would do. 

[artic_99]

Vor 8 Minuten, Tugnut sagte:

lower the air detect of DD's shorten the attack a little for rocket/bombs... they still will find the DD in the end, but more time and effort will be required and makes it a little easyer for the DD's to jink in to a diffrent direction.

 

Also if you shorten the arm and attack run, CV's will find it harder to sling shot on to targets!

So you would keep rockets in game? I believe it would make the game more interesting taking them out and replace them with different bombers as they need more skill to be operate. (dds would have it far easier in both ideas) 

[Tugnut]

2 minutes ago, artic_99 said:

So you would keep rockets in game? I believe it would make the game more interesting taking them out and replace them with different bombers as they need more skill to be operate. (dds would have it far easier in both ideas) 

could lower the damage, but some how make them still relevent against bigger targets some how! (would say fire chance but that still screws over the DDs)

[artic_99]

Vor 1 Minute, Tugnut sagte:

could lower the damage, but some how make them still relevent against bigger targets some how! (would say fire chance but that still screws over the DDs)

Well Idk I think rockets are to easy to use against dds he bombs are thanks to the 8.4 nerf quite hard to operate VS dds. In my opionion it would be better to have no rockets or high caliber rockets as tiny Tim as they are better for bigger targets and not as good VS dds. 

[Panocek]

25 minutes ago, Tugnut said:

that will be ok for mostly skilled CV players that will have an idea of what direction/postion a DD will take, but makes it very hard for unskilled CV players to combat.

Standard issue, potato, mk.1 already have hard time computing what that exclamation mark gives, so I wouldn't be surprised if aerial camo buff rollback wouldn't be more beneficial

[Excavatus]

15 hours ago, CptBarney said:

that message really confused me lol. i legit thought he was typing in red text.

Sorry my mistake..

that donkey you've pointed out was actually me :)

and yeah.. didn't take offense... we are cool :)

[Sunleader]

37 minutes ago, artic_99 said:

It's okay you have your opinion I have mine. But I still don't think you getting what a mean. 8.5 aa shreds planes even on weak aa ships like Musashi. The issue is that aa is beyond rngesus. You don't have to do anything to kill planes. Its like you said all about feeling. But the issue with that is that it doesn't matter whether you are a good player or a bad one you will lose the same amount of planes. And you can do nothing about it. NOTHING!!!!! skill should be rewarded dump play punished. 8.5 aa punishes anyone who dares play a CV. 8.4 aa could have been tweaked that some ships have great aa but then again some ships need to have garbage aa. That would have been the point of forcing cvs to look for the best target again. The issue is that with 8.5 even a Musashi has [edited]great aa. I killed 9 t8 planes (no fighters) in my shiratsuyu(1.9km aa range). That's clearly to much. I hope no you can understand better what I mean by tweaking. And then again pls give me an option to make this point better for you like what you would do. 

 

See.

And thats exactly where I Disagree.

 

Because I have no Trouble even Bombing Yamato which has vastly Superior AA to Musashi.

You are not Supposed to be able to Bomb anyone without taking any Plane Losses.

 

And the only thing you Achieve by having Ships unable to even Shoot down at least a few planes when Attacked.

Is Creating Ships which are by Default Extremely Frustrating to play the moment a CV is in the game.

No Ship should have Garbage AA. No Ship should be forced to Play Fodder for CVs just so CVs always have some Easy Targets to Farm Damage.

I mean no Offense. But even a BB which is the Prime Target for a DD. Does have some Defences against DDs and can Kill the DD if the DD makes a Mistake that the BB can exploit.

Likewise a DD can cause Damage to a Cruiser and Kill it when the Cruiser makes a Mistake. And Likeweise a Cruiser can cause Damage to BBs and Kill BBs if they make a Mistake.

 

Any Ship in the Game is still Capable of Dealing Damage and even Killing the Class which is Strongest against it.

So why should any Ship not have any way to even cause Damage to CVs Planes ?

Why should CVs. Which on top is the Class which has the easiest time to Choose Targets and go over the Entire Map regardless of Enemy Teams Positions.

Be Equipped with even more Advantages by making it so that some Ships cant even hope to Defend against them at all ????

 

 

 

Sorry Mate.

But 0.8.5 Stays around.

You will neither Convince me to Agree to this neither will you Convince other Surface Ship Players to Agree to this.

Its like your Asking for a Sacrifice whose Game you can Ruin in exchange for not Ruining everyones Game anymore.

And Sorry. But thats just not Flying. Your not Supposed to Ruin anyones Game Mate.

 

Other Players are not Supposed to Serve as Fodder for CVs. Not even 1 out of the 12 Players in the Enemy Team is Supposed to be Helpless against you just so you can have Fun abusing him without him being able to Fight back.

Other Players are Supposed to be Competitors and Opponents which Fight you for the Victory. All 12 of them are Supposed to Stand a Fighting Chance against you.

 

And even in 0.8.5 CVs are Still Fighting with a massive Advantage over the other Ships.

The last thing we need is "Tweaks" that would Increase the already Huge Handicap that other Ships have against CVs anyways.

[Sunleader]

11 hours ago, CptMinia said:

Stay on topic you buggers.. I'm leaving in 2 days so just stay on topic until then please then you can torture another moderator!

 

6 minutes ago, Excavatus said:

Sorry my mistake..

that donkey you've pointed out was actually me :)

and yeah.. didn't take offense... we are cool :)

 

So should we Understand this as a Hint that your the Next Moderator whose on Shift for this Topic ? xD

[Panocek]

Improved parameters of commander skill Survivability Expert: now increased aircraft HP for each ship tier is +25 instead of +15 (+30 instead of +20 unique commanders). At X level, this will give an increase of 250 points to aircraft HP, which will strengthen the aircraft by more than 10% and will allow the squadron to live longer under AA, taking into account the latest changes in mechanics in the update 0.8.5.

 

Sounds sort of reasonable. Still, 100hp extra (150->250) at tier 10 is about one AA tick extra worth of hp. And again, doesn't do anything to solve power spike between tiers.

 

[HaachamaShipping]

6 minutes ago, Panocek said:

Sounds sort of reasonable. Still, 100hp extra (150->250) at tier 10 is about one AA tick extra worth of hp. And again, doesn't do anything to solve power spike between tiers.

Which ships were screwed over most by the AA change? CVs with high quality (often high hp) planes, but few of them (e.g. Saipan). Which ships were affected the least? CVs with massive hangar sizes and fast respawn (of often crappy planes) (e.g. Kaga, Enterprise).

 

Which ships benefit most from this SE buff? CVs with massive hangar sizes and fast respawn (of often crappy planes) (e.g. Kaga, Enterprise). Which ships are affected the least? CVs with high quality (often high hp) planes, but few of them (e.g. Saipan).

 

I see nothing wrong here.

[Panocek]

8 minutes ago, Cagliostro_chan said:

I see nothing wrong here.

If in doubt, working as intended

[Lootboxer]

So they changed this skill instead of for example how AR works. Lol.

I think that there will be more changes soon anyway. This alone won't stop rivers of tears. 

[Excavatus]

57 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

So should we Understand this as a Hint that your the Next Moderator whose on Shift for this Topic ? xD

 

 

[Sadzior]

This so called fix.... fixed nothing.

Now planes survives 0.1 sec longer when catched in AAA...

 

Btw.

Mine 5 cents in cv balance discussion

 

How about:

 

1. Lower AAA levels

2. Make 3 different possible AAA setups and  big difference between them in effeciency : stock AAA, upgraded and perk upgraded AAA and fully upgraded manual controlled AAA

3. Lower a bit damage output from CV ordnance but bring back accuracy

4. Make squadron sizes more non nonsense (not like 2 plane TB sqads on haka) and add waiting time for start preparation ( but not several minutes like its now, more like 2-3 min max per sqadron in old cv)- aka make cv attack less frequently but in bigger squads

5. Make fighters usefull tool to protecting own fleet- longer figters active time, more aggresive fighters , more fighters consumables, possibility to add dedicated fighter cover to single friendly ship.

6. Finally add spotting delay like on radar ships but longer or spot just on map- with is in real the biggest issue.

 

The whole idea is to

1. Make cv spot less for team- making dd survival easier

2. Make cv fly less often but with bigger squads - to stop continuous and annoying aircraft spam ( with are not able to do much anyway)- and to be able make some quality strike on choosen targets but not so often. Simply quality above quantity.

3. Make possible for cv to have more impact in protecting own ships

4. Stop idiocy with totally efortless AAA- BB and CA players killing planes without even paying any attention or even noticing it- and this is called "interaction" Make efficiency of own AAA depending on player actions like before

[Sunleader]

1 hour ago, Panocek said:

Improved parameters of commander skill Survivability Expert: now increased aircraft HP for each ship tier is +25 instead of +15 (+30 instead of +20 unique commanders). At X level, this will give an increase of 250 points to aircraft HP, which will strengthen the aircraft by more than 10% and will allow the squadron to live longer under AA, taking into account the latest changes in mechanics in the update 0.8.5.

 

Sounds sort of reasonable. Still, 100hp extra (150->250) at tier 10 is about one AA tick extra worth of hp. And again, doesn't do anything to solve power spike between tiers.

 

 

Well.

Its a Skill so that Change is Reasonable I guess.

I doubt this is the end of it tough.

Explicitly because its not doing much to help the CVs mostly hit by this.

 

1 hour ago, Cagliostro_chan said:

Which ships were screwed over most by the AA change? CVs with high quality (often high hp) planes, but few of them (e.g. Saipan). Which ships were affected the least? CVs with massive hangar sizes and fast respawn (of often crappy planes) (e.g. Kaga, Enterprise).

 

Which ships benefit most from this SE buff? CVs with massive hangar sizes and fast respawn (of often crappy planes) (e.g. Kaga, Enterprise). Which ships are affected the least? CVs with high quality (often high hp) planes, but few of them (e.g. Saipan).

 

I see nothing wrong here.

 

Aye.

Thats pretty much what I tought as well.

I mean thanks I guess for Buffing my Kagas Planes even further and giving my Squadron a good amount of extra HP due to having many Planes.

 

But the CVs which got Trouble are not benefitting from this so much.

 

 

I fear this will actually not Solve the problems but rather create bigger ones.

Because Surface Ship Players wont make a big Difference between which CV is Attacking them.

So Surface Ship Players whining will increase again due to CVs like Kaga and Enterprise just ignoring their AA for most Part and bombing them anyways.

While the CVs with few Planes end up in the crossfire despite not even being able to do this.

 

34 minutes ago, DariusJacek said:

So they changed this skill instead of for example how AR works. Lol.

I think that there will be more changes soon anyway. This alone won't stop rivers of tears. 

 

likely.

But as said above.

The Bigger Problem is the direction of the changes.

Kaga and Enterprise are seriously the last CVs which needed a bigger Buff.

They from the get go barely cared about 0.8.5

 

30 minutes ago, Excavatus said:

 

 

 

Oi Oi come on.

We are Fun arent we.

Most people here have actually been rather Civilized lately.

(Yes I know we had a certain Exception)

But without work there would be no Job for you either right :P

 

 

5 minutes ago, Sadzior said:

This so called fix.... fixed nothing.

Now planes survives 0.1 sec longer when catched in AAA...

 

Btw.

Mine 5 cents in cv balance discussion

 

How about:

 

1. Lower AAA levels

2. Make 3 different possible AAA setups and  big difference between them in effeciency : stock AAA, upgraded and perk upgraded AAA and fully upgraded manual controlled AAA

3. Lower a bit damage output from CV ordnance but bring back accuracy

4. Make squadron sizes more non nonsense (not like 2 plane TB sqads on haka) and add waiting time for start preparation ( but not several minutes like its now, more like 2-3 min max per sqadron in old cv)- aka make cv attack less frequently but in bigger squads

5. Make fighters usefull tool to protecting own fleet- longer figters active time, more aggresive fighters , more fighters consumables, possibility to add dedicated fighter cover to single friendly ship.

6. Finally add spotting delay like on radar ships but longer or spot just on map- with is in real the biggest issue.

 

The whole idea is to

1. Make cv spot less for team- making dd survival easier

2. Make cv fly less often but with bigger squads - to stop continuous and annoying aircraft spam ( with are not able to do much anyway)- and to be able make some quality strike on choosen targets but not so often. Simply quality above quantity.

3. Make possible for cv to have more impact in protecting own ships

4. Stop idiocy with totally efortless AAA- BB and CA players killing planes without even paying any attention or even noticing it- and this is called "interaction" Make efficiency of own AAA depending on player actions like before

 

0.3 Secs :P

And Yes its not a big Fix.

At least not for the ones whcih needed one.

 

But your Idea is not really sitting well with me either.

 

1.

No. Seriously we dont need any lower AA Levels.

2.

No as well. Because Mate. Its meaningless if to Defend against a CV you need a Special Build of Ship. Its only creating frustration because then when you got no CV in Match you have Completely wasted these Points. And for the ones who didnt Spend the Points CVs means pure Frustration if they are in the same Match. This  is not fixing anything.

3.

What ???

CV Damage is already Super Low and Accuracy Super High.

I mean if you want to Nerf CVs go ahead. But I dont see any need for this.

4.

No. This would just result in CVs being able to Ignore AA again. The Update was a good Step in that regard because it Increased Importance of Decisions for CVs.

I would actually go opposite. Making Smaller Squadrons more Common but Increase the Attack Wing.

So a Squadron can only Attack Once or Twice or in very rare case Thrice.  But in exchange has Larger Reserves of Planes.
So Attacks have Larger Recovery Times in between so Damage Con etc makes actual sense again for Surface Ships. And at the same Time CVs have less Crazy Losses when their whole Squadron Vanishes after an mistake.

5.

This one I agree on Wholeheartedly. Fighters need a Freaking Buff in Aggro. Either they Should last 3-5 Minutes. Or they should at least have 3 times the Aggro Range so they actually Attack Something.

Right now they are better used as Scouts rather than Interceptors... Their Protection Potential is like Zero.

6.

Agreed. At least against DDs. Aircraft should not Provide Accurate Spotting Data for the Team.

 

[Sadzior]

1 hour ago, Sunleader said:

 

Well.

Its a Skill so that Change is Reasonable I guess.

I doubt this is the end of it tough.

Explicitly because its not doing much to help the CVs mostly hit by this.

 

 

Aye.

Thats pretty much what I tought as well.

I mean thanks I guess for Buffing my Kagas Planes even further and giving my Squadron a good amount of extra HP due to having many Planes.

 

But the CVs which got Trouble are not benefitting from this so much.

 

 

I fear this will actually not Solve the problems but rather create bigger ones.

Because Surface Ship Players wont make a big Difference between which CV is Attacking them.

So Surface Ship Players whining will increase again due to CVs like Kaga and Enterprise just ignoring their AA for most Part and bombing them anyways.

While the CVs with few Planes end up in the crossfire despite not even being able to do this.

 

 

likely.

But as said above.

The Bigger Problem is the direction of the changes.

Kaga and Enterprise are seriously the last CVs which needed a bigger Buff.

They from the get go barely cared about 0.8.5

 

 

Oi Oi come on.

We are Fun arent we.

Most people here have actually been rather Civilized lately.

(Yes I know we had a certain Exception)

But without work there would be no Job for you either right :P

 

 

 

0.3 Secs :P

And Yes its not a big Fix.

At least not for the ones whcih needed one.

 

But your Idea is not really sitting well with me either.

 

1.

No. Seriously we dont need any lower AA Levels.

2.

No as well. Because Mate. Its meaningless if to Defend against a CV you need a Special Build of Ship. Its only creating frustration because then when you got no CV in Match you have Completely wasted these Points. And for the ones who didnt Spend the Points CVs means pure Frustration if they are in the same Match. This  is not fixing anything.

3.

What ???

CV Damage is already Super Low and Accuracy Super High.

I mean if you want to Nerf CVs go ahead. But I dont see any need for this.

4.

No. This would just result in CVs being able to Ignore AA again. The Update was a good Step in that regard because it Increased Importance of Decisions for CVs.

I would actually go opposite. Making Smaller Squadrons more Common but Increase the Attack Wing.

So a Squadron can only Attack Once or Twice or in very rare case Thrice.  But in exchange has Larger Reserves of Planes.
So Attacks have Larger Recovery Times in between so Damage Con etc makes actual sense again for Surface Ships. And at the same Time CVs have less Crazy Losses when their whole Squadron Vanishes after an mistake.

5.

This one I agree on Wholeheartedly. Fighters need a Freaking Buff in Aggro. Either they Should last 3-5 Minutes. Or they should at least have 3 times the Aggro Range so they actually Attack Something.

Right now they are better used as Scouts rather than Interceptors... Their Protection Potential is like Zero.

6.

Agreed. At least against DDs. Aircraft should not Provide Accurate Spotting Data for the Team.

 

1.Play with ALL cv including tier X you will see need for lowering AAA you sitting with shokaku and zappelin in sweet spot. try brits u will see

2.It freaking worked EXACTLY like this long before rework- if you not investing in AAA you was easy target i cant see problem with this- now every monkey can bring worcester abd be totally immune. BB cruising all day long in sniper mode shooting down planes not even noticing it and this is ok for you???

3. They nerfed accuracy - like bomb spread- its ok if lower accuracy was only against DD but now you cant bomb a cruisier sometimes with par example midway- with you dont have right?Å`

4 increase attack wings was exactly what i was saying....maybe i cant express it ..

5. yes

6. DD are fine now for me but for better good i propose this change- either 30-40 seconds penalty on spot like on radar ships ( but bit longer) OR  only spotting "on map"

 

[Sunleader]

38 minutes ago, Sadzior said:

1.Play with ALL cv including tier X you will see need for lowering AAA you sitting with shokaku and zappelin in sweet spot. try brits u will see

2.It freaking worked EXACTLY like this long before rework- if you not investing in AAA you was easy target i cant see problem with this- now every monkey can bring worcester abd be totally immune. BB cruising all day long in sniper mode shooting down planes not even noticing it and this is ok for you???

3. They nerfed accuracy - like bomb spread- its ok if lower accuracy was only against DD but now you cant bomb a cruisier sometimes with par example midway- with you dont have right?Å`

4 increase attack wings was exactly what i was saying....maybe i cant express it ..

5. yes

6. DD are fine now for me but for better good i propose this change- either 30-40 seconds penalty on spot like on radar ships ( but bit longer) OR  only spotting "on map"

 

 

1.

Sure Mate.

For whatever Reason my CV is always the Sweet Spot.

I got Kaga. Oh Yeah its OP Play GZ its Super Underpowered.

I got GZ. Oh Yeah its OP Grind Shokaku and Haku. They Suck.,

I got Shokaku and Haku. Oh Yeah they are OP. Grind UK CVs.

 

Guys Sorry. But Seriously. Who are you Trying to Kid here.

Just Admit it.

AA is even in 0.8.5 actually rather Weak.

I could have every Single CV in the Game and the Result will not Change.

So Stop making Excuses.

 

2.

Its Irrelevant if its Ok for me because its not True.

I have yet to meet a Single Ship that I cannot Bomb.

Not a Single Ship in this Game is Immune to Aircraft Attacks unless the CV is a Noob who just Flies Straight at it and thus is Hit by Flak Clouds.

 

3.

Mate no Offense. But Accuracy of CVs is Absurd with the Exception of Dive Bombers. And even with Dive Bombers I still hit DDs.

It makes no Sense with AP Bombs to do it. But its still pretty easy.

 

4.

The problem is mate. You Couple it with Bigger Squadrons as well. I want Smaller Squadrons not Bigger Squadrons. So More Damage for 1 Attack. But less Attacks per Squadron.

For Example.

Right now Kaga with its TBs had a Base Damage of 3.5k for each Torp. Throwing 4 Torps per Attack and having 3 Attacks.

So Total of 12 Torps.

I would Instead make it only 8 Aircraft in the Squadron. Thus the Squadron only having 2 Attacks of 4 Torps each. But in exchange Buff the Torp Damage to 5k Instead.

 

So CVs doing Fewer Attacks. Especially Fewer Attacks on One Target.

But Doing more Damage with 1 Attack if it gets through.