CV Rework Discussion

[Panocek]

24 minutes ago, Europizza said:

As for the current state of AA, I am fully OK with some ships being no fly zones. Every class needs it's fundamental weaknesses and CV's definitely need a few more. One of those would be vulnerability of the hull by removing the overbearing automated fighter and repair features and return to normal fire duration times. Another would be a select few AA heavy ships that are almost impossible to damage by a lone CV when AA specced. Mistakes need to be punished, yes even CV mistakes. But the current global hot fixes will only result in more weird solutions like targeting reserve planes instead of the ones attacking, planes getting killing when flying away mostly, 4 fighters taking off from the back of battleships and other immersion breaking spreadsheet solutions.

Thing is, rock-paper-scissors is long no longer a thing in game (and you could argue if it even was there to begin with), as DD player can play around cruisers just fine, same with cruisers around BB. With "no fly zones" only way to "play around" is to not bring planes in vicinity... Which would be fair, if DD would automatically implode when caught for 20s within cruiser gun range for example, which clearly isn't the case.

[Mad_Dog_Dante]

24 minutes ago, Panocek said:

Thing is, rock-paper-scissors is long no longer a thing in game (and you could argue if it even was there to begin with), as DD player can play around cruisers in fine, same with cruisers around BB. With "no fly zones" only way to "play around" is to not bring planes in vicinity... Which would be fair, if DD would automatically implode when caught for 20s within cruiser gun range for example, which clearly isn't the case.

It is not about rock paper scissors. Every class needs to have vulnerabilities at it's own accord. DD's have a no sail zone of about 9-10 km around radar cruisers in which they will get obliterated within 20 seconds if mistakes are made. A DD can play around it or even may try to challenge it, and radar itself has limitations (duration, limited number of uses) but it is a no sail zone nevertheless.

You are trying to force a point by taking things to the extreme. No fly zones of AA specced ships may very well include the AA ship actively having to make an effort by using consumables and the currently weird sector system we have now. And just like your examples the CV can very well play around that. Heck, WG still thinks abusing the utterly broken sling shotting is perfectly fine to help dedicated CV players to circumvent devastating AA. My point is, most ships have to play around their weaknesses, CV's after the 0.8.0 rework had bare to none. It's time CV's get some glaring weaknesses and CV's will have to learn to play around them without having to resort to abusing bugs and gaping holes in the core design of features.

[Sunleader]

Not to Sound Smart here.

 

But just how long does anyone think will a DD Survive if he Yoloes at a Worcester like CVs usually do with their Bomber Squadrons ?

[Panocek]

1 minute ago, Europizza said:

A no fly zones of AA specced ships may very well include the AA ship actively having to make an effort by using consumables and the currently weird sector system we have now

Except now even crap AA ships with no AA investment can inflict considerable casualties simply by "unicum" pressing consumable key. And then there is question if effective AA build is actually a tradeoff of surface effectiveness. Because I can spec any cruiser that isn't Atlanta or US CL in general to have single most potent AA boost - Manual AA without sacrificing surface combat at all. Heck, you can do the same to BB and still have maxed out fire/flood/repair duration reduction. Only DDs have to actually skip some surface oriented skills to get MAA - instead usual 4x3+CE you have to ditch TAE+SI/Demo to squeeze MAA+AR

[Panocek]

1 minute ago, Sunleader said:

Not to Sound Smart here.

 

But just how long does anyone think will a DD Survive if he Yoloes at a Worcester like CVs usually do with their Bomber Squadrons ?

Thing is:

-DD can fire at Wooster from behind island with relative safety

-DD can stealth torp, either from close up between radars or from 9km+, something pretty much every DD is capable of

-in Kebab/Groz case, you can open fire and cause actual hurt in open water shenanigans considering abysmal Wooster ballistics

 

CV case - skill application ends at evading flak, slingshotting bombers and in TB case, flying around islands. You can yolo full squad in full AA, but amount of times you can do it is more than limited, while damage output besides landing 3/3 AP bombs or detonating someone is going to be mediocre for losses taken.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Europizza said:

We are currently experiencing hotfix upon hotfix, which is not a good sign in itself as these are improperly tested usually.

 

Thats why I still think, the Rework is an Alphaversion and isn't even close to a Betaversion and we have to bear with it.

 

2 hours ago, Sunleader said:

My Opinion on the 0.8.5 Update so Far.

Is that this is a Very Good Step in the Right Direction.

 

AA now actually Does Something.

Carriers actually now have to Show some Skill and Decision making. And have to Choose Targets.

They cant just Pick a Random Ship of the Enemy Team and basicly Harass it until its Dead.

They now have to look for Favorable Attack Windows and Positions.

Because otherwise they lose alot of Planes.

 

I do think that some CVs which only got very low Reserves or low Squad Sizes have been Hit a bit too hard by this Update.

And will need Minor Buffs to their Planes HP or Reserves.

So they either take less losses or can cope with the losses better.

 

While other CVs (eherm ENTERPRISE) are nearly unaffected by the Rework because they have Very Big Reserves, Very Big Squadrons or Very fast Plane Regeneration.

These Clearly need moderate Nerfs to be put back in line  with other CVs.

 

In Total.

CVs are Still very easy to Play.

And while their Average Damage will likely take a Hit by this.

They are Still Tremendously Efficient Spotters and still have an Tremendous amount of Influence on the Match.

 

But I do think that they are not Ridiculously Overpowered anymore.

 

As I do think CVs are strong and we both had the discussion, what "normal ones" are even cappable to do with the new CVs and I even can see why you point out 0.8.5 may be the right direction, I think the step itself was... hm, not enterily wrong but hasted! And that shouldn't be. CVs with small reserves, that the fully HP attecked wing now gets the whole AA afterwards and the planes die one by one and there is nothing, like literally nothing you can do about that, no matter how good you are, skills with are ripped of their efficiency (TB heal) or even useless (adrenaline rush) and some other things... they should had been considered BEFORE 0.8.5 hits the live server.

Thats why I can't see 0.8.5 as a benefit, even if it brings balance to CVs.

[Mad_Dog_Dante]

10 minutes ago, Panocek said:

Except now even crap AA ships with no AA investment can inflict considerable casualties simply by "unicum" pressing consumable key. And then there is question if effective AA build is actually a tradeoff of surface effectiveness. Because I can spec any cruiser that isn't Atlanta or US CL in general to have single most potent AA boost - Manual AA without sacrificing surface combat at all. Heck, you can do the same to BB and still have maxed out fire/flood/repair duration reduction. Only DDs have to actually skip some surface oriented skills to get MAA - instead usual 4x3+CE you have to ditch TAE+SI/Demo to squeeze MAA+AR

Again forcing a point by misrepresenting what I am talking about. I am not talking about every ship or every cruiser being able to AA spec into a no fly zone, I am talking about specialized AA ships dedicating to an AA build on top, like minotaurs, worcesters, Atlanta's and the like.

 

I think the current AA system is  as a whole since 0.8.0, and 0.8.5 didn't make it any better. It is still broken in general, just towards the other end now. I think the captain skills for AA are too expensive and conflciting, hell the whole skill tree balance is getting more broken each hotfix, i think the sector system is stupid, the fighter consumables abhorrently idiotic, in fact the whole AA redesign is unintuitive, lacks immersion and CV's are broken in it's core design, still.

 

CV's have been broken as a class since forever pre and post rework, it's time their survival rate gets on par with other classes, their damage averages balanced to their other traits , and meaningfull weaknesses should be implemented so CV's can start playing around their own weaknesses like any other class currrently does. There are great ideas floating around, like spotting limitations for planes or changes to how plane spotting gets passed on to the team, AA consumables affecting drop pattern accuracy, etc etc. WG is balancing a spreadsheet, and that might get the global numbers right, but might very well not fix anything else.

[Tugnut]

Trouble is any positive changes to the CVs will then make a group of players spam play the Enterprise again trying to effect the CV rework in the game.  Also getting a little boared of the changes all the time now, might be a good time to find a better supported game to play.

[Sunleader]

15 minutes ago, Panocek said:

Thing is:

-DD can fire at Wooster from behind island with relative safety

-DD can stealth torp, either from close up between radars or from 9km+, something pretty much every DD is capable of

-in Kebab/Groz case, you can open fire and cause actual hurt in open water shenanigans considering abysmal Wooster ballistics

 

CV case - skill application ends at evading flak, slingshotting bombers and in TB case, flying around islands. You can yolo full squad in full AA, but amount of times you can do it is more than limited, while damage output besides landing 3/3 AP bombs or detonating someone is going to be mediocre for losses taken.

 

 

1.

Hahahahahahahahhaha Good One Mate. Really Good One. Island Camping DD Challenging a Worcester of all things xD. Oh my God hahahahahhahah I.ll die from Laughing xD

ok ok sorry. A bit more Serious. *frantically tries to suppress his snickering*

No Sorry he Cant.

As a DD trying to Island Camp. And of all Things Choosing a Worcester as Target is like hanging out a Sign begging. "PLEASE KILL ME: I DONT WANT TO LIVE ANYMORE JUST END IT PLEAASE"

Aside from DD Guns not really doing much to a Cruiser as unlike BBs the Cruiser is not very affected by Fires.

2.

Yes. With a Chance of Hitting a Cruiser that is somewhere between 5% and non existence.

All while Hoping that nobody has Radar or comes closer because otherwise he will be Melted in a Few Seconds.

3.

Someone Tried that in last Match. Got Onehit by Vladiwostok.

Opening Fire in Open Water as a DD when your Very Fast. Might help you Survive the Worcester cause its got Bad Ballistics.

Assuming you can Stay far enough away for this to Matter and still actually Hit the Worcester yourself.

But just like in Point 1. Your effectively rising a Sign asking People to Kill you.

 

 

And no.

There is one Skill that you keep Ignoring.

That is Strategical Decision Making.

 

See Mate.

EVERY SINGLE SHIP in this Game.

(Except CVs which were so far Spared from this thanks to how OP they were before this Update)

has to to make Decisions.

Especially for DDs one of these Decisions is wether or not he Should Push an Attack or Retreat and Wait for a Better Chance.

Because Attacking now might put him into a Fight where he will Die doing next to no Damage at all.

 

You say above a DD could Open an Artillery Battle with a Worcester from Range where the Worcester cant Hit him properly.

But no Offense Mate.

For what would the DD do that ? :)

he would do if he is very Lucky. Maybe like 10k Damage. In Exchange he has reveleaed his Position. Is a Prime Target for the entire Enemy Team in Range. And on top has completely Ruined his Chance for Attacking Battleships which are his Primary Target.

Meaning that this Decision would be completely Ridiculous.

 

And Sorry. But after the Update now.

CVs also have to make such Decisions.

When I see a Minotaur. I will not Attack it unless I am sure I can really land some Good Hits on it.

(For example in a Game with MacArthur where we by coincidence Played together. There was a Minotaur behind an Island. The Island provided Good Cover for my Aircraft so I went over the Island and Divebombed the Minotaur for a Double Citadel.)

I will simply Avoid it.

At the Start of the Match. I now often dont just Fly Forward and make an Attack.

Instead I First Strafe along the Center Line between the Teams and Check out which Ships are going in which Direction.

Which not only Helps my Team. But also allows me to look for Openings in the Enemy Lines and for good Targets.

 

Only after that. I choose a Target and then Start to Maneuver around it to find a Favorable Angle for my Attack. So I have a High chance of Hitting it and then Leaving the AA Zone without Flying into a Blob afterwards or being Stuck on an Island that slows my Aircraft into a Climb.

 

 

This kind of Skill is the most Importand for all Ships in WoWs.

And now CVs for the First time in 6 Months.

Are Actually Required to use it again.

 

 

And Sorry.

But this is absolutely Correct and absolutely Justified.

If CVs cant do that. Then they Deserve to go home without any Damage.

Just like Every Single other Ship in this Game :)

 

 

[Panocek]

1 minute ago, Europizza said:

Again forcing a point by misrepresenting what I am talking about. I am not talking about every ship or every cruiser being able to AA spec into a no fly zone, I am talking about specialized AA ships dedicating to an AA build on top, like minotaurs, worcesters, Atlanta's and the like.

 

I think the current AA system is  as a whole since 0.8.0, and 0.8.5 didn't make it any better. It is still broken in general, just towards the other end now. I think the captain skills for AA are too expensive and conflciting, hell the whole skill tree balance is getting more broken each hotfix, i think the sector system is stupid, the fighter consumables abhorrently idiotic, in fact the whole AA redesign is unintuitive, lacks immersion and CV's are broken in it's core design, still.

 

CV's have been broken as a class since forever pre and post rework, it's time their survival rate gets on par with other classes, their damage averages balanced to their other traits , and meaningfull weaknesses should be implemented so CV's can start playing around their own weaknesses like any other class currrently does. There are great ideas floating around, like spotting limitations for planes or changes to how plane spotting gets passed on to the team, AA consumables affecting drop pattern accuracy, etc etc. WG is balancing a spreadsheet, and that might get the global numbers right, but might very well not fix anything else.

REEEwork being broken by design is something acknowledged like... half year ago?

 

And especially now, you don't need balls-to-the-wall AA build to have effective AA, at least as much as "first strike goes through" allows. Minotaur is prime example, as for "surface combat" all you need is AR, SI and CE. That leaves 9 points to be spent on whatever you want.

[Sunleader]

16 minutes ago, Alipheese_XV said:

 

Thats why I still think, the Rework is an Alphaversion and isn't even close to a Betaversion and we have to bear with it.

 

 

As I do think CVs are strong and we both had the discussion, what "normal ones" are even cappable to do with the new CVs and I even can see why you point out 0.8.5 may be the right direction, I think the step itself was... hm, not enterily wrong but hasted! And that shouldn't be. CVs with small reserves, that the fully HP attecked wing now gets the whole AA afterwards and the planes die one by one and there is nothing, like literally nothing you can do about that, no matter how good you are, skills with are ripped of their efficiency (TB heal) or even useless (adrenaline rush) and some other things... they should had been considered BEFORE 0.8.5 hits the live server.

Thats why I can't see 0.8.5 as a benefit, even if it brings balance to CVs.

 

I Disagree.

Dont get me Wrong.

 

But CVs have been Ruining the Game and causing Frustration for other Players for over 6 Months.

And the small Carefully Adjusted Changes would likely have meant that CVs would have kept doing this for another 6 Months.

 

So this Radical Change might have a Somewhat Rough Start as it Ignored alot of small Details.

But the Change is a Huge Improvement and Greatly Reduces Frustration.

It is an Tremendous Benefit for the Game and the Community.

 

 

 

I mean Mate.

When you Play Golf and the Hole is 200m away.

Will you keep Hitting the Ball Slowly and Carefully towards that Hole in 5 Meter Steps.

So you can Carefully and Safely Avoid any Obstacle, Sand and Water Holes ?

 

You wont Win a Golf Game like this.

If you want to Win a Game of Golf.

You have to take a Big Swing at the Start and Try to Hit the Ball hard so it Flies into an area somewhere around the Target Hole.

You might Overshoot the Target or Land it in some Shrub thats 10 meters off the Hole.

 

But Taking 2 or 3 more Swings to get the Ball from this Shrub into the Hole.

Will still be much better than taking another 20-40 Swings to slowly maneuver the Ball around every Obstacle.

 

 

And in 0.8.4 we were like 500 Meters away from the Hole.

With the Updates from 0.8.0 to 0.8.4 mostly having Shot the Ball in 3 Meter Steps which partially even were Diagnonal and thus barely even closed the Distance.

It was High Time we Finally got a Big Shot out. So we actually get somewhere were the Goal is even in Viewing Range.

[Mad_Dog_Dante]

3 minutes ago, Panocek said:

REEEwork being broken by design is something acknowledged like... half year ago?

 

And especially now, you don't need balls-to-the-wall AA build to have effective AA, at least as much as "first strike goes through" allows. Minotaur is prime example, as for "surface combat" all you need is AR, SI and CE. That leaves 9 points to be spent on whatever you want.

My answers are: Yes, it was already acknowledged half a year ago, yes AA is still broken all over the place and yes you have freedom to speck however you want, and the skill tree is still a bloody chaotic mess. Is there a point you are trying to make or are you just counter argumenting for the sake of argumenting?

[Panocek]

6 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

1.

Hahahahahahahahhaha Good One Mate. Really Good One. Island Camping DD Challenging a Worcester of all things xD. Oh my God hahahahahhahah I.ll die from Laughing xD

ok ok sorry. A bit more Serious. *frantically tries to suppress his snickering*

No Sorry he Cant.

As a DD trying to Island Camp. And of all Things Choosing a Worcester as Target is like hanging out a Sign begging. "PLEASE KILL ME: I DONT WANT TO LIVE ANYMORE JUST END IT PLEAASE"

Aside from DD Guns not really doing much to a Cruiser as unlike BBs the Cruiser is not very affected by Fires.

Funny because islands works just fine on my end

 

And I've said can fire, not it will be effective unless AP to the broadside. And considering mediocre Wooster firing arcs, broadside is something you will see quite often.

11 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

2.

Yes. With a Chance of Hitting a Cruiser that is somewhere between 5% and non existence.

All while Hoping that nobody has Radar or comes closer because otherwise he will be Melted in a Few Seconds.

Still better than nothing. And of torp connect, hole in cruiser will be rather substantial.

 

11 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

3.

Someone Tried that in last Match. Got Onehit by Vladiwostok.

Opening Fire in Open Water as a DD when your Very Fast. Might help you Survive the Worcester cause its got Bad Ballistics.

Assuming you can Stay far enough away for this to Matter and still actually Hit the Worcester yourself.

But just like in Point 1. Your effectively rising a Sign asking People to Kill you.

So we're talking about RU DD vs Wooster or RU DD vs team with Wooster?

And you underestimate how good RU 130mm ballistics have, with them being close to your typical 203mm.

That and Kebab experience is literally to be that little  pissing everyone off, so everyone waste their time at you instead green ones, so no, you haven't discovered America there.

[Panocek]

3 minutes ago, Europizza said:

My answers are: Yes, it was already acknowledged half a year ago, yes AA is still broken all over the place and yes you have freedom to speck however you want, and the skill tree is still a bloody chaotic mess. Is there a point you are trying to make or are you just counter argumenting for the sake of argumenting?

Considering WG is quite reliable at ignoring user feedback I'd say its the latter. And no wonder, because when they do listen, playerbase usually shoot themselves in the foot with the result, as CV RTS strafing and CV REEEwork are "community driven ideas"

[Mad_Dog_Dante]

Just now, Panocek said:

Considering WG is quite reliable at ignoring user feedback I'd say its the latter. And no wonder, because when they do listen, playerbase usually shoot themselves in the foot, as CV RTS strafing and CV REEEwork are "community driven ideas"

Something we can agree upon 

[Sunleader]

8 minutes ago, Panocek said:

Funny because islands works just fine on my end

 

And I've said can fire, not it will be effective unless AP to the broadside. And considering mediocre Wooster firing arcs, broadside is something you will see quite often.

Still better than nothing. And of torp connect, hole in cruiser will be rather substantial.

 

So we're talking about RU DD vs Wooster or RU DD vs team with Wooster?

And you underestimate how good RU 130mm ballistics have, with them being close to your typical 203mm.

That and Kebab experience is literally to be that little  pissing everyone off, so everyone waste their time at you instead green ones, so no, you haven't discovered America there.

 

1+2

I dont consider Inefficient Methods for this Mate.

Inefficient Methods would also mean we can Count the CV Yoloing and Sacrificng a Squadron to Strike the Worcester.

And the CV would still do much more Damage that way than the DD would.

And Lol if we talk about Guaranteed Damage.

Any CV has far higher Chance to Score on Worcester than a DD.

 

3.

I am Talking about actual Game Mate.

If we only Talk about 1 vs 1

Than no Worcester will ever Beat a CV.

Because even the CV takes Losses. It will massacre the Worcester with Bombs, Torps and Rockets due to at least 1 Attack always coming Through.

And in many Cases even the Worcester wont be able to Stop at least Half of the Remaining Squadron of Boosting out of Range and then Retreating to keep Losses Minor.

 

 

DD wont Beat Worcester one on one.

If Worcester does not need to care for Fire from Enemy Team.

Then the Worcester can Push towards the DD while either Staying Angled or even Bow on.

Thus taking nearly no Damage. And always being Optimal position to evade Torpedoes.

All while Firing away at the DD and pushing him towards a Corner or Simply Capturing the Points and Denying the DD to come Close.

Needless to say.

Even Worcester will Hit an Evading DD Firing at it. And unlike the DD. The Worcester will Hurt him with these Shots.

You dont need that many Hits from Worcester HE to Destroy a DD.

So even if only 1 out of 100 Shells hit. The Worcester still Wins.

 

 

 

This is about Strategical Decisions Mate.

A CV if he Yoloes a Worcester will also land a Bomb Strike.

But the Point is. That he Should not do that.

 

He should make the Logical Decision and Instead Bomb a Better Target.

Just like a DD will not open Fire on a Worcester in Range and basicly call an Hail of Fire on his own Position.

 

 

 

 

____________________________

 

Meanwhile. While I have no Intention of Grinding UK CVs anywhere close to the Speed and Effort at which I did it with IJN CVs.

Since  @Cambera_1 Requested me to do UK CVs next. I have just gotten my First T4 UK CV.

Which is also my First T4 CV. Because I had IJN on 6 when the Rework Started.

 

My First Impression.

 

A.

The Level Bombers are Extremely Powerful.

High Chance of Causing a Fire. Extremely Easy to Hit even DDs.

And quite OK Damage.

B.

But Oh my God...

I so far tought T4 CVs are pretty underwhelming. But its actually worse than that.

For a T4 CV the Battle is Basicly an All you can Eat Buffet. But he is already Full.

There is nearly no AA Whatsoever. So you can basicly just Attack and Kill whoever you want.

But at the same Time. 1 Plane Attacks xD

While nobody can Stop you from Attacking anyone. You just do nearly no Damage at all.

You can still Easily Kill 1 or 2 Enemy Ships of course.

But your Effect on the Battle is just so Minor and the Gameplay is so Boring....

 

 

[Culiacan_Mexico]

5 hours ago, Panocek said:

I doubt few %hp extra will fix anything.

That comment by S_O seemed odd to me.  A few percent increase?

[Panocek]

HE bomb pen

THE squishiest T4 BB

 

 

24 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

And quite OK Damage.

 

Dunno about Hermes, but T6 onwards UK carrier bombers are balanced around principle "what you can reliably hit, you usually can't pen. What you can pen, you can't reliably hit". Unless your definition of good hit rate is 2 out of 16 bombs for 3k damage total.

 

Implant for example:

against Kremlin, I think the biggest BB in game

 

More realistic, and almost preferred target

and result

10/16 bombs on target, 8 penetrated for whooping 11.7k dmg. Value US DB regularly surpass and have much more targets to choose from with increased HE pen and better dispersion

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Sunleader said:

 

I Disagree.

Dont get me Wrong.

 

But CVs have been Ruining the Game and causing Frustration for other Players for over 6 Months.

And the small Carefully Adjusted Changes would likely have meant that CVs would have kept doing this for another 6 Months.

 

So this Radical Change might have a Somewhat Rough Start as it Ignored alot of small Details.

But the Change is a Huge Improvement and Greatly Reduces Frustration.

It is an Tremendous Benefit for the Game and the Community.

 

 

 

I mean Mate.

When you Play Golf and the Hole is 200m away.

Will you keep Hitting the Ball Slowly and Carefully towards that Hole in 5 Meter Steps.

So you can Carefully and Safely Avoid any Obstacle, Sand and Water Holes ?

 

You wont Win a Golf Game like this.

If you want to Win a Game of Golf.

You have to take a Big Swing at the Start and Try to Hit the Ball hard so it Flies into an area somewhere around the Target Hole.

You might Overshoot the Target or Land it in some Shrub thats 10 meters off the Hole.

 

But Taking 2 or 3 more Swings to get the Ball from this Shrub into the Hole.

Will still be much better than taking another 20-40 Swings to slowly maneuver the Ball around every Obstacle.

 

 

And in 0.8.4 we were like 500 Meters away from the Hole.

With the Updates from 0.8.0 to 0.8.4 mostly having Shot the Ball in 3 Meter Steps which partially even were Diagnonal and thus barely even closed the Distance.

It was High Time we Finally got a Big Shot out. So we actually get somewhere were the Goal is even in Viewing Range.

 

You see, if I would play Golf, then I would consider my own handicap - so the hole is 200m away. Good, I position myself and yes, my first swing would be powerful to come close to the hole really fast.

But before the swing I would consider things like

- wind direction and might

- the ground around the hole, which can be from different consistency and if it is better to land more before or behind the hole

- is there an obstacle like a hill which I aren't good in getting over and so it would be better to play around it with 2 - 3 swings

Wargaming on the other hand did not consider such things and it seemed more like they blindly shot their ball...

 

To get back to CVs and balancing:

WG was too long sure, that the rework is fine and good - thats where the 6 months mostly come from.

If they finally decide to get rid of some core aspects of their rework like changing AA from whole squad to a single plane... they should make some more considerations.

 

In Golf it would mean that 90% of the viewers might get bored and "feel like having no fun" - but that shouldn't matter when I aim for the hole or?

 

At least I see that they might come in viewing range of the goal.

And I truly hope the goal is more then just bringing this rework from Alpa- to Betastatus.

[xxNihilanxx]

1 hour ago, Tugnut said:

 Also getting a little boared of the changes all the time now, might be a good time to find a better supported game to play.

 

If "better supported" is your criterion then your choice is limited to, well, every other game in existence.

[Sunleader]

49 minutes ago, Panocek said:

Snip.

 

1.

And now lets get to the Point where this Matters ?

 

Throwing a Bomb Carpet of Small Bombs is Generally not Intended to Bomb Battleships you know.

(Seriously does non of you guys have any Experience in WW2 Aircraft Capabilities and Weaponry ????)

You use it against Lighter Armored Targets like Cruisers and Destroyers.

 

And against those. The Sheer amount of Tiny HE Bombs is Extremely Effective. 

Against BBs you Should stick to Torpedoes.

 

2.

And that has anything to do with what ?

You going to tell me that T8 CV being able to do 10k Damage on a BB with HE Bombs is somehow making a T4 UK CV Bad ????

 

Sorry. But if I check the Stats of the Later Uk CVs. I cant Check the Penetration for the T8 UK HE Bombs.

But they go from 40 Pound Bombs on T4 to 250 Pound Bombs on the T8 CV.

So I would assume that they will have more than the 19mm Penetration Required to Punch through a BBs Superstructure.

 

 

 

 

22 minutes ago, Alipheese_XV said:

 

You see, if I would play Golf, then I would consider my own handicap - so the hole is 200m away. Good, I position myself and yes, my first swing would be powerful to come close to the hole really fast.

But before the swing I would consider things like

- wind direction and might

- the ground around the hole, which can be from different consistency and if it is better to land more before or behind the hole

- is there an obstacle like a hill which I aren't good in getting over and so it would be better to play around it with 2 - 3 swings

Wargaming on the other hand did not consider such things and it seemed more like they blindly shot their ball...

 

To get back to CVs and balancing:

WG was too long sure, that the rework is fine and good - thats where the 6 months mostly come from.

If they finally decide to get rid of some core aspects of their rework like changing AA from whole squad to a single plane... they should make some more considerations.

 

In Golf it would mean that 90% of the viewers might get bored and "feel like having no fun" - but that shouldn't matter when I aim for the hole or?

 

At least I see that they might come in viewing range of the goal.

And I truly hope the goal is more then just bringing this rework from Alpa- to Betastatus.

 

If WG Really Shot the Ball Blindly they sure had Incredible Luck.

Because they got Closer to the Goal in this one Hit than they ever got before.

 

And well Mate.

I assume you wont Win at Golf then. ;)

 

[Panocek]

Just now, Sunleader said:

1.

And now lets get to the Point where this Matters ?

 

Throwing a Bomb Carpet of Small Bombs is Generally not Intended to Bomb Battleships you know.

(Seriously does non of you guys have any Experience in WW2 Aircraft Capabilities and Weaponry ????)

You use it against Lighter Armored Targets like Cruisers and Destroyers.

 

And against those. The Sheer amount of Tiny HE Bombs is Extremely Effective. 

Against BBs you Should stick to Torpedoes.

Using dive bombers to carpet bomb ship with small bomblets. Historical accuracy/10.

 

Historically "crossing the T" was viable tactic. Try doing it in game

 

1 minute ago, Sunleader said:

2.

And that has anything to do with what ?

You going to tell me that T8 CV being able to do 10k Damage on a BB with HE Bombs is somehow making a T4 UK CV Bad ????

 

Sorry. But if I check the Stats of the Later Uk CVs. I cant Check the Penetration for the T8 UK HE Bombs.

But they go from 40 Pound Bombs on T4 to 250 Pound Bombs on the T8 CV.

So I would assume that they will have more than the 19mm Penetration Required to Punch through a BBs Superstructure.

You can check yourself from port...

 

And its 32mm HE pen on tier 6-8 and 40mm on T10. And again, how big it area you're carpeting compared to superstructure? That is why I've highlighted Richelieu as "preferable" target due to lack of any deck reinforcement.

[B051LjKo]

5 hours ago, Sunleader said:

2.

I Disagree Heavily.

Balance is Still clearly in Favor of CVs.

There are Exceptions now which due to low Squadron Size Suffered Heavier from this Update and WILL BE BUFFED.

As WG has Already Stated.

But Overall. CVs are Still Easily able to get Really Good Games that other Surface Ships can only get if they are Extremely Lucky.

And CVs are Still Guaranteed a High amount of Damage in even a Bad Game.

 

Come on, a dose of objectivity would not kill you. At least try. I've just send the whole Ranked season playing CVs and DDs (shitty AA shima) an had no issue what so ever with CVs. Everyone was bitching how CVs will ruin Ranked, and in the end games with CVs were much more challenging and fun. With this new huge nerf for the CVs, you are again moaning how CVs still have the upper edge?! How is that? Take Saipan, that has small squadrons and shitty regeneration. It relied on high hitpoint rate to absorb the damage of AA, and preserve the planes. It can not do that anymore, it will be deplaned after 8 minutes in the game regardless of what it does (as it is uptiered 7 times out of 10 anyway). How is that good for the game? This only promotes more bow tanking, and BBs yolowing around. Does it effect Kaga and Big E? Kaga not at all, as it was burning planes anyway, and Bg E has a big regeneration rate so it will not suffer as much.

 

Blah... another shaft the CV move by WG. And I love the ''we will increase the hitpoits by few percent if we see drastic changes''. In other words, if Mino kills a plane is 0,6 seconds, we will increase the hitponts by 3%, so it takes 0,607 seconds before the first plane goes down.

 

Just supid. But hay, I guess we agre again going in the CV in the game every 17th game direction. In the last month, whenever playing a DD or a BB, I would more often get in the games without CVs that the other way around. My personal opinion, CV population is going down in the < 3% direction.

[Mind_Expander]

13 hours ago, EgyptOverseer said:

Except those ships don't have infinite range, and if you disengage and nothing is within your land spotting range, suddenly you have mitigated the damage, even if it can ignore your angling or armour. I too get frustrated with IFHE spam, but the fact is that my positioning still plays a role. With CVs, however, your positioning means nothing because there are no land obstacles to planes that make spotting be time-constricted.

 

 

As I said, the only meaningful mitigation to IFHE spam is 'don't be there'.  You're effectively agreeing with me.  

Whilst IFHE doesn't have infinite range, it frequently has a long range, and a very high rate of fire.  

 

Consider the situation where a BB comes under fire from a previously unseen IFHE spammer.   In most cases, the spammer's ship is faster than the BB, which means the BB cannot run away if the spammer pursues.  By the time the BB even turns around, it has been subjected to multiple salvoes, is probably on fire in several places, and is losing health rapidly.  If the spammer is in a position where the BB can't shoot back, or RNG decides to troll the BB with bad dispersion, there is nothing the BB can do to stop the spam.  The BB will be melted/burned down in pretty short order.  I've had cases where my full health BB has been wrecked this way in the time it takes me to fire 2 or 3 salvoes (and as I'm sure you agree, 2 or 3 salvoes is not reliably enough to kill a spamship).

On the other hand:

 

A CV can make 1-4 attacks (let's be realistic, in 0.8.5 it's more like 1 attack, *maybe* 2, before all planes die) every 1-2 minutes.   Remember it takes time for each squad of planes to launch and fly out to target.   The further your ship is from the CV, the longer this takes.   

I also disagree that your positioning doesn't make a difference against CVs.   Your positioning can be highly relevant.   If you're alone in open water, that makes you a prime target.   On the other hand, if you're near friendly ships, this makes you a much less attractive proposition, as the CV knows attempting to attack you will result in unsustainable losses.   Proximity to islands is also a factor, since they not only block spotting even from planes, but also restrict the attack paths planes can take.    Dive bombers sometimes prefer to fly over an island on their way to the target, since that gives them protection on the way in.  However both torpedo planes and rocket planes are forced to take a different route, as islands interfere with their attacks.

 

Finally, I'd point out that between sectors, fighter consumables and maneuvering, it *is* possible to mitigate CV attacks at least partially.  When defending vs HE or AP divebombers, remember that their attack patterns are optimised for flying along the length of your ship.   Even a partial turn to make them attack at an angle will cause some of their bombs to miss entirely.  You'll never escape entirely, but you can mitigate to some extent.

[Sunleader]

1 hour ago, Panocek said:

Using dive bombers to carpet bomb ship with small bomblets. Historical accuracy/10.

 

Historically "crossing the T" was viable tactic. Try doing it in game

 

You can check yourself from port...

 

And its 32mm HE pen on tier 6-8 and 40mm on T10. And again, how big it area you're carpeting compared to superstructure? That is why I've highlighted Richelieu as "preferable" target due to lack of any deck reinforcement.

 

1.

Fair Enough.

If this was Historical we would not have Assault Planes at all cause Rockets would not even Impress a DD in Reality...

 

But the Point is that these Bombers are Quite Effective at Hitting DDs and Cruisers with a Similar Accuracy as Rockets.

Its like you Got 2 Assault Squadrons but no Bomber Squadron.

And I actually like this Quite a Bit.

 

The AP Bombs of the IJN got far more Power of course.

But they are very RNG.

The HE Level Bombing is nearly Guaranteed Fire and Damage on Cruisers and DDs :)

 

2.

Mind Telling me how ?

I am a Casual Noob.

And when I dont Own a Ship. It does not Show me the Weapons Data for the Planes.

I can Check Weapons Data for Planes from Ships I already Have. But not for ones I do not have.

 

 

 

 

30 minutes ago, B051LjKo said:

Come on, a dose of objectivity would not kill you. At least try. I've just send the whole Ranked season playing CVs and DDs (shitty AA shima) an had no issue what so ever with CVs. Everyone was bitching how CVs will ruin Ranked, and in the end games with CVs were much more challenging and fun. With this new huge nerf for the CVs, you are again moaning how CVs still have the upper edge?! How is that? Take Saipan, that has small squadrons and shitty regeneration. It relied on high hitpoint rate to absorb the damage of AA, and preserve the planes. It can not do that anymore, it will be deplaned after 8 minutes in the game regardless of what it does (as it is uptiered 7 times out of 10 anyway). How is that good for the game? This only promotes more bow tanking, and BBs yolowing around. Does it effect Kaga and Big E? Kaga not at all, as it was burning planes anyway, and Bg E has a big regeneration rate so it will not suffer as much.

 

Blah... another shaft the CV move by WG. And I love the ''we will increase the hitpoits by few percent if we see drastic changes''. In other words, if Mino kills a plane is 0,6 seconds, we will increase the hitponts by 3%, so it takes 0,607 seconds before the first plane goes down.

 

Just supid. But hay, I guess we agre again going in the CV in the game every 17th game direction. In the last month, whenever playing a DD or a BB, I would more often get in the games without CVs that the other way around. My personal opinion, CV population is going down in the < 3% direction.

 

1.

I am Perfectly Objective here Mate.

And Sorry.

But CVs are Still Extremely Powerful.

 

I already Said that Saipan likely belongs to the CVs that will Require a Buff after this.

But in General.

I can Still do Extremely Well in CVs.

 

 

While everyone here keeps Telling me how its Impossible to Play CV now because your Squadrons are Melted etc etc.

I have absolutely no Trouble with Dishing out Pretty Good Games one after the Other.

 

 

2.

Actually I would not Underestimate a few Percent.

Because if that Few Percent per Aircraft.

Pushes that Aircraft over the Threshold by just 1 HP so it needs 1 more Hit.

This will mean that you get one more Hit you can Tank for each Aircraft in the Squadron.

 

Then again.

I doubt that the Buff will just be a few HP.

They will likely make it so. That CVs with very small Reserves will get a Buff to Regeneration so they get Aircraft back Faster or enough HP for a Squadron to Survive 10-20 more Ticks from an AA Cruiser.

 

You should know. I am extremely Unlucky. So that alone means that WG will likely make every Effort to bring all CVs back to being Overpowered.

Especially the Premium Ones like the Saipan.

 

 

 

 

Edit:

Removed some Parts cause I accidently lost track of the lines and ended up answering a post not directed at me lol