CV Rework Discussion

[EgyptOverseer]

16 minutes ago, Mind_Expander said:

 

 

I just joined the party here, to see what people were saying about the latest AA change.    Varying opinions, as might have been expected.    Personally, I'm in the 'this change feels like a kaiju-sized nerf to CVs and is not a great solution to the problem it was trying to address' camp.

However, I just saw the following:

 

 

Sunleader, you appear to be saying that any situation where a CV is able to get any attack through AA and inflict some damage means CVs are overpowered.   You seem to be saying that anything less than 100% dead planes anytime they try to make an attack a ship means CVs are overpowered.

I must have misunderstood you, surely?   You can't seriously think that CVs being able to make any damage at all means they are overpowered, right?

 

You did misunderstand.

 

I read as him showing that this rework makes it so that either the class is the only one that cannot have it's damage mitigated meaningfully or a class that is unable to do any damage. Meanwhile, it remains a class that even without doing any damage can still produce a level of spotting that made radars no longer be a hot topic.

[Cambera_1]

5 hours ago, Sunleader said:

Actually they do have this Restriction.

Because if Surface Ships mess up like this.

They dont lose a Squadron. They get Killed.

And then they basicly have to Wait for the Rest of the Match to use that Ship again.

 

And No.

Your getting that a bit Wrong.

 

We Demand Ridiculous Amount of Plane Kills because this is whats needed to Affect CVs.

So far the Plane Kills were far too low.

And thanks to that.

Plane Kills barely ever Affected CVs.

 

Now after the Update. Plane Kills do actually Affect CVs.

And CVs do now have to Pay some heed to AA.

They cant just Attack whatever they want anymore.

 

Sorry you seem to be somewhat confused about what you are arguing because no successful surface ship loses the ability to perform a full salvo at another target for several minutes. What is the longest torpedo reload time?

 

I also suggest that you give the RN CVs a try. I think that you will find their lack of reserves, small squadron sizes, and replenishment times a completely different ball game to your IJN ones. In them you felt every loss.

See what you think about the effectiveness of their torpedos and level bombing.

 

I will look forward to hearing your opinion after a few games.

[Mind_Expander]

1 minute ago, EgyptOverseer said:

You did misunderstand.

 

I read as him showing that this rework makes it so that either the class is the only one that cannot have it's damage mitigated meaningfully or a class that is unable to do any damage. Meanwhile, it remains a class that even without doing any damage can still produce a level of spotting that made radars no longer be a hot topic.

That might make slightly more sense as an interpretation of what he said.

 

However, I don't agree with the notion that there are not other classes whose damage cannot be mitigated meaningfully.   IFHE spam from ships behind islands springs instantly to mind.   Makes armour and angling totally irrelevant, the only meaningful mitigation is 'don't be there'.

 

[Sunleader]

17 minutes ago, Mind_Expander said:

 

 

I just joined the party here, to see what people were saying about the latest AA change.    Varying opinions, as might have been expected.    Personally, I'm in the 'this change feels like a kaiju-sized nerf to CVs and is not a great solution to the problem it was trying to address' camp.

However, I just saw the following:

 

 

Sunleader, you appear to be saying that any situation where a CV is able to get any attack through AA and inflict some damage means CVs are overpowered.   You seem to be saying that anything less than 100% dead planes anytime they try to make an attack a ship means CVs are overpowered.

I must have misunderstood you, surely?   You can't seriously think that CVs being able to make any damage at all means they are overpowered, right?

 

 

Uhh. This is not Exactly Wrong. But also not Exactly Right.

Because the Thing you State there is actually Correct Currently.

Anything less than 100% Dead Planes anytime they Attack a Ship will effectively Result in CVs being Overpowered.

 

But the Second Part is Wrong.

No I dont think that CVs being able to make any Damage at all means they are Overpowered :)

 

 

 

Currently.

CVs have a Very High Attack Ratio.

So Even if only 1 Attack from each Squadron comes through.

A CV can basicly Harass Ships to the Death with it.

And Due to the Unrealistically High Reserves of Planes that many CVs have.

This Causes a very High Guaranteed Damage by Default which you cant do anything against.

 

And there is the Catch.

Thanks to Automatic AA and CV only Controlling One Squadron at a Time.

You cant Really Create a Situation where 1 Squadron is Entirely Deleted. While another will make it Through.

Except of course you make it RNGesus Based. But then both Sides usually End up Incredible Frustrated.

 

And thanks to This. You Simply dont reach a Middleground in the Rework.

You always End up in a Situation where the CV will Basicly be Guaranteed to Deal 50-100k Damage and more.

Or will End up getting no Damage at all because his Squadrons are Deleted before they Reach the Target.

(Numbers Serve only for Explanation and are not Actual Game Values Because Yes I know Some People will not get 50k Damage in in the 8.0 Rework. Because I have Seen more than Once that CVs basicly Bombed me. And I didnt even notice it thus just Driving Straight. Yet they Missed me with the Torps because despite being T8 they apparently had still not learned about Activation Distance or how to Lead Torpedos properly....)

 

 

 

 

 

Now the Situation we Would Want.

Would be a System.

Where a CV and a Surface Ship Effectively Face off and if the Surface Ship Wins he is not Damaged or only gets very little Damage.

While if the CV Wins he gets alot Damage on the Surface Ship.

 

So that a CV which lost most of the Engagements in the Match Goes Home with 10-20k Damage.

While a CV which won most of the Engagements in the Match Goes Home with 80-100k Damage. (Numbers are Entirely for Explanation and dont Relfect Actual Game Numbers as Real Matches should also be able to of course go from 0 Damage when you completely messed up to the like 300k Damage if its really an Awesome Game)

 

But this is rather Impossible. Because AA is mostly Automated. And Planes are Simply too much Faster than Ships as that a Ship could really Outmaneuver them.

Meaning that no Real Skillcheck or Engagement can Happen.

The only thing Checked is the Skill of the CV in Aiming at the Ship while Evading Heavy AA and the Planes having enough HP to Survive the Continues AA.

 

 

11 minutes ago, EgyptOverseer said:

You did misunderstand.

 

I read as him showing that this rework makes it so that either the class is the only one that cannot have it's damage mitigated meaningfully or a class that is unable to do any damage. Meanwhile, it remains a class that even without doing any damage can still produce a level of spotting that made radars no longer be a hot topic.

 

Thats a pretty Good Summary of what I am Saying :)

 

 

 

22 minutes ago, Cambera_1 said:

Sorry you seem to be somewhat confused about what you are arguing because no successful surface ship loses the ability to perform a full salvo at another target for several minutes. What is the longest torpedo reload time?

 

I also suggest that you give the RN CVs a try. I think that you will find their lack of reserves, small squadron sizes, and replenishment times a completely different ball game to your IJN ones. In them you felt every loss.

See what you think about the effectiveness of their torpedos and level bombing.

 

I will look forward to hearing your opinion after a few games.

 

1.

I am not Confusing this at all.

I am Merely Reminding you that this Coin has 2 Sides.

 

A CV will Deplete his Power even on Succesful Strikes.

And so will a DD, Cruiser or BB as well by Receiving Counterfire.

 

A CV will upon that Depletion get Weaker in his Attack Power.

Which other Surface Ships dont. (Well at least not Directly. If you go low Health you will actually be Forced to limit your Firepower for example by Bow Tanking etc)

 

But in Exchange. If Surface Ships Mess up and thus get Pummeled. They are DEAD. They are Out of the Game entirely. Their Attack Capacity goes Straight from 100% to 0%

A CV however. Even if he Messes up and Loses an Entire Squadron. Will only Drop from 100% Attack Capacity to 80% Attack Capacity. And on Top its Regenerating over time. Even if its a Slow Regeneration :)

 

And dont get this Wrong.

But if Reproduced that on Surface Ships.

Losing 20% HP would basicly mean that 20% of your Guns are Destroyed.

But while losing HP basicly Removes your Guns.

You could never Lose more than 20% HP at once.

If You lose 20% HP your Taken off the Map and Respawned back at the Spawnpoint.

Moreover. Your HP would Slowly Regenerate over time.

 

And Sure. If you get Pummeled in a Yolo 4 Times in a Row.

You basicly Sit there with only 1 or 2 of your 9 Guns still Working.

But You are Still there and Still have 1-2 Guns to do Damage.

 

If you were a Normal Surface Ship.

You would at this Point have Died 4 Times.

 

Now Think about that.

Dont you Think that the CV is making a Pretty Good Trade there ? :)

 

 

2.

Not for Now Sorry.

Maybe later.

I will See.

No Offense at the Request.

But I got Prem CVs and I just Finished Grinding the Japanese CV Line all the way to Tier 10.

I am Really not yet in the Mood to just go for another CV line Right again.

 

Especially not when there is Finally an Iteration of the Game where Surface Ships are a Viable Playing Option again.

[Cambera_1]

@Sunleader

If you played any carrier balanced around the ability to strike multiple times quickly but with low squadron and reserve sizes together with low regeneration rates you would have valued your planes more and carefully selected your targets.

 

This game is about balance between the classes and because 2 USN and 2 IJN CVs have overperformed all have had multiple nerfs. Most of those nerfs have had little affect on the biggest problem CVs due to the amount of reserves that they have and their quick replenishment rates. 

Other carriers often don't have the hitting power because they are balanced around getting multiple quick strikes in. This after the nerfs is extremely difficult.

 

In attempting to balance the other classes, and I do play them more than CVs, I am a DD main, the balance is now well in favour of the surface ships with AA being too deadly.

I rarely had a problem with a CV, though a Midway did take a fancy to my Daring in Ranked battles.

In DDs I found proper use of AA mechanics together with manoeuvring to keep sector's facing the air threats, switch AA on and off and carefully watching the minimap was very effective.

 

I did find the Atlanta's AA to be underwhelming in the rework but LWM showed why.

Yes I have Simms and Des Moines too but few of my ships have DFAA, they haven't needed it. My two 'go to' ships for any missions to down aircraft have been T22 & Leander. These ships are effective in AA because the CVs don't expect them to be. 

 

[EgyptOverseer]

1 hour ago, Mind_Expander said:

That might make slightly more sense as an interpretation of what he said.

 

However, I don't agree with the notion that there are not other classes whose damage cannot be mitigated meaningfully.   IFHE spam from ships behind islands springs instantly to mind.   Makes armour and angling totally irrelevant, the only meaningful mitigation is 'don't be there'.

 

Except those ships don't have infinite range, and if you disengage and nothing is within your land spotting range, suddenly you have mitigated the damage, even if it can ignore your angling or armour. I too get frustrated with IFHE spam, but the fact is that my positioning still plays a role. With CVs, however, your positioning means nothing because there are no land obstacles to planes that make spotting be time-constricted.

 

Anyway, I am merely part of the group of players that stopped playing since the rework and is every now and then popping to the forums or Reddit to see if surface ships have somehow once again become viable. Until then, all I can do is try my best to prevent apologists from misrepresenting the matter in their favour, much like many others have done the same when someone was fighting to preserve the status of their OP ship. Unlike OP surface ships, the CV rework brings a complete meta change purely on a class being in the match. One OP surface ship or even a division are something you can at least manage with positioning somewhat. Funnily enough, most broken OP surface ships in the past only became overpowering in a division with a... *drum roll*... CV.

 

 

Put simply, CVs and subs will always be game breaking when not balanced because by design they do not follow the same surface mechanics all other classes evolved through 10 tiers under. Islands, speed, escape routes, distance to nearest target, detection zoning, concealment, angling, etc, all of these become worthless when you take a CV or a sub. Watch when the subs get released somehow all islands becoming icebergs that can be sailed under, because that is just classic WG balans.

 

[AirSupremacy]

I find some truth lays in the Filibusting and the rest of the content, however - What're the opinions on the CV rework ?

I find that in the game version 0.8.5 the CV class players get de-planed too fast.

 

[TVLX]

12 hours ago, arcticstorm123 said:

Why so aggressive?

 

I play all classes, ...not well but I play them.., I enjoy cv's as much as any other class, sorry you don't like them but some of us do, and would like to find a way to fit them so everyone's happy, and I'd post pretty much the same if any other class of ship was nerfed to this extent.

 

There's no way you can have a calm reasoned discussion in this thread

Aggressive.... absolutely nothing I said was aggressive and if you think it was, I can only apologise as I didnt realise you were a snowflake.

 

Anyway, it has nothing to do with liking or disliking cv's. I dont agree with the current mechanics which are so badly implemented, WG will never be able to balance them without major changes.

 

All they are currently doing is a similar result as you would get cleaning up dog crap with a mallet, the dog crap is still ton the floor but now it's on the walls, you and the dog.

 

Basically no one is happy and until they admit a mallet isn't a cleaning utensil, this bonfire will keep burning.

[AirSupremacy]

Introduction: If one asks for a replay, play the game yourself.

 

1 match in the T9 Donskoi vs Random Haku CV player

 

> I classify this Donskoi ship as AA banana boat

 

Haku player does first attack run after 1 minute and I have 6 plane kills without any action from my side.

I had no nearby green ships, in 0.8.4 a similar situation resulted in 0 to 1 plane kills for my Donskoi.

 

10 minutes later - 31 plane kills. The Donskoi is a bad AA ship. If one has a different opinion about that, fine.

I didn't even pay attention to the CV attacks as all planes drop down anyway without spending attention to CV attack runs.

The Haku player focussed on me and tried 10 minutes to sink me, he spent half the match trying to finish me off a cruiser.

After the first 10 minutes, he focussed his attacks on to other ships.

 

With a Mino one can cash in 100 planes from a T10 carrier in 0.8.5, much easier than in 0.8.4

I don't know why WG changed AA from 0.8.4, I see no sense in the change.

CV had been well nerfed up to 0.8.4 and AA had been beefed up a lot, especially the flak modules/bursts had been a challenge in and up to game version 0.8.4

 

I will not play carriers without any reroll + I am unmounting AA modules and AA skills on all my ships and captains,

I see no need for fitting and using them. IMHO they have no purpose anymore.

 

I would like to mention this to the community manager, as I find the changes in 0.8.5 far too extreme.

Playing 0.8.4 as non-CV or CV was fun for me.

IMHO 0.8.5 has rendered the entire CV class unfun and to an unplayable state.

@MrConway

 

 

The scoreboards of matches in 0.8.5 show huge total plane losses and often only 1 or no CV kill at all.

Also only to be able to perform single attack runs makes carriers unfun and a burden to play.

In 0.8.4 good CV players had been able to perform 3 to 4 bomb runs on the same ship

( which therefore took long time with huge plane losses ),

CV players had been able to play out skill and endurance up until version 0.8.4.

 

Anybody who green lit this AA change did not play the game in CV and non-CV ships with a balanced mind and does not see the example consequence that grinding from a T8 carrier to T10 takes "12000 years" now in version 0.8.5.

 

Any CV enthusiast would have said after 3 minutes playing 0.8.5 "Ehm, you want to dumb down CV`s right to the ground?", why did WG not look over the shoulder of random or good CV players or look in to match scoreboards on plane losses?

In a non-CV ship is just raining down planes the whole time.

 

I was ok with all CV nerfs up to 0.8.4 and never complained, but I am afraid that 0.8.5 made the class unrewarding, grindy, unfun, lackluster of being able to play out skill and a waste of playtime.

 

In the role of a non-CV ship player I found that CV`s added to the engaging Theatre-of-War feeling up to game version 0.8.4

 

I will miss the spotting of CV`s in matches as non-CV ship, in the last few days on 0.8.4 it was already getting rare to have a CV in a T10 match.

 

The last days of 0.8.4 where also the first times for me to see T8 CV`s in T10 matches where every non-CV-ship was T10 , as it seems no T10 CV`s where available for the matchmaking. AA was already strong in 0.8.4 and the limit of nerfing the CV ship class had already been reached with 0.8.4 IMHO.

 

Any further CV nerfing/AA buffing beyond 0.8.4 will and has degraded CV play fun and CV damage dealing.

 

10 minutes play time, Donskoi vs Haku.

20K damage dealt by the CV focused only against me in the first half of the match.

I did nothing to counter the carrier attacks.

This is just a random experienced live example with 0.8.5

[El2aZeR]

7 minutes ago, AirSupremacy said:

Well, it's rare to find game feedback in this thread

 

Probably because objectively there is no feedback to give beyond "Scrap the whole rework and start anew."

The AA change only proves that point.

[AirSupremacy]

6 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

Probably because objectively there is no feedback to give beyond "Scrap the whole rework and start anew."

The AA change only proves that point.

The community would surely be open to more 0.8.5 feedback.

I found 0.8.4 well balanced for all ship classes.

[El2aZeR]

3 minutes ago, AirSupremacy said:

I found 0.8.4 well balanced for all ship classes.

 

A purely subjective opinion not backed up by facts, as such to be disregarded.

[AirSupremacy]

8 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

A purely subjective opinion not backed up by facts, as such to be disregarded.

I can say the same phrase to you - Your subjective opinion, whereas I could not find described content on version 0.8.5

It would be very nice to hear detail feedback and suggestions if and what should be changed.

The more detail feedback and opinions can be found in this thread, the better a possible outcome could be :)

[El2aZeR]

On 6/29/2019 at 5:17 AM, AirSupremacy said:

Your subjective opinion

 

Except it is backed up by simple hard facts, such as

1. CVs are the only class in this game designed solely to grief other classes.

2. CVs are the only class in this game without any active team utility.

3. Reworked CVs are shown to overall outperform their predecessors in stats up until 0.8.5 (no data on 0.8.5 yet).

4. The rework has objectively solved none of or severely worsened the following problems the RTS iteration had:

- Skillgap

- Influence on battle

- Spotting

- Damage potential

- Overall population

5. The rework introduced a ton of issues on top of existing ones.

6. Before 0.8.5 counterplay to reworked CVs was nonexistent. It in fact continues to be nonexistent depending on MM.

 

Any attempt to solve these issues, as shown with the AA change, will inevitably break the rework.

As such the only feedback to give is very simple. The rework has to be scrapped completely. There is no other way to address these problems otherwise. 0.8.5 changes nothing on that matter, in fact imo 0.8.5 isn't even enough of a nerf as it inevitably doesn't solve all of the fundamental issues of reworked CVs. Does it objectively break the rework? Ofc it does, but there is no other way.

[Culiacan_Mexico]

8 hours ago, Panocek said:

you know balans haz ben met camrade

 

WG coming choice to increase hit points vs increased regeneration...

 

Wouldn't that be hardest on the less skilled CV players?

[Culiacan_Mexico]

Sub_Octavian

"...The 0.8.5 change is very massive, don't underestimate it. And it will remain - AA WILL be much more consistent, this is what we wanted to achieve responding to your feedback. However, if we see that plane losses are becoming excessive, we can now make much less significant change to compensate a bit (e.g. increasing plane HP by a few %). The problem with the new AA DPS change is that it could not really be incremental, it's more about black & white, so it's very natural to follow up on that with much lesser tweaks...."

"...0.8.5 change is not an entire solution of counterplay problem - it is an important and big (I believeyou will notice it in game) step. Making AA deal consistent DPS will be followed up by new priority sector, that by design should give much more counterplay feeling and will be easier to use. It will also, I believe, will aid DD most. Please wait for next week, when our CCT Summit informational embargo is lifted, you will learn the details. Cheers!..."

 

"...The main thing about 0.8.5 is the DPS application order. It is "plane by plane" now, and it will stay like this. This change is huge, kind of "black and white". With such scale, it is natural that AA makes huge and not always 100% accurate leap in efficiency. So we will react to it to make sure that CV are not overnerfed - and yes, with all due respect, CV should be hammered in healthy solid balance with all other classes - but not into the ground..."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Since 0.8.0 CV went live, WG has made some changes to game play that effected CVs, but initially, it doesn't seem like any of them were of this 'intensity.'

[1MajorKoenig]

28 minutes ago, Culiacan_Mexico said:

 

WG coming choice to increase hit points vs increased regeneration...

 

Wouldn't that be hardest on the less skilled CV players?

 

I hope they go HP. Regeneration leads to dumb waves of huge losses = very frustrating 

[Culiacan_Mexico]

1 minute ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

 

I hope they go HP. Regeneration leads to dumb waves of huge losses = very frustrating 

Agreed, but having watch unskilled RTS CV players send their aircraft into AA slaughter and be "de-planed"... are lower skilled 0.8.0 players now consigned to the same fate?  I won't say whether that is good or bad, but wasn't that one of the issue WG wanted to address in 0.8.0 vs RTS?  "de-plane-ing"

[1MajorKoenig]

51 minutes ago, Culiacan_Mexico said:

Agreed, but having watch unskilled RTS CV players send their aircraft into AA slaughter and be "de-planed"... are lower skilled 0.8.0 players now consigned to the same fate?  I won't say whether that is good or bad, but wasn't that one of the issue WG wanted to address in 0.8.0 vs RTS?  "de-plane-ing"

 

Potentially yes. But in my opinion this is easier post-rework as the player is directly with his squadron - and it’s only one. So that shouldn’t be too hard really

[Panocek]

1 hour ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

 

I hope they go HP. Regeneration leads to dumb waves of huge losses = very frustrating 

 

2 hours ago, Culiacan_Mexico said:

 

WG coming choice to increase hit points vs increased regeneration...

 

Wouldn't that be hardest on the less skilled CV players?

I doubt few %hp extra will fix anything. Especially as 0.8.6 and new sector are in the pipeline so anything extra will be pretty much mandatory unless WG made their money with premium CVs and is willing to fall carriers into obscurity... Again

 

 

Still waiting for morning coffee, but I'm thinking of something along these lines:

-when entering AA, dps picks plane RANDOMLY and fires at it till it dies. If plane leaves AA (or changes aura?) dice roll decides which plane is about to have significant emotional event

-introduce immunity/severe damage reduction to returning planes

-remove BS mechanics like damage reduction on attack run, remove slingshot - keep player in squadron control all the time, if he wants to watch fireworks, RMB exists for a reason. Damage reduction on attack run might have to be compensated by either adding hp or tuning down dps/flak.

 

That and flatten plane hp and AA across the tiers, to reduce tiering differences

 

[_Kettenbeisser]

I think I need to remember you guys about some pre-rework facts.

Few players played them due to op AA (if players specced for it) and steep learning curve after manual drop removal from t4-5. 

They seemed op because nobody specced for AA anymore due to their low numbers. (Proof: AA *edited* Divi could singlehandedly suppress enemy CV with just 2 AA ships)

After rework the constant economy nerf for cvs was removed resulting in higher net average exp. So if reworked cvs earn more exp and credits than pre rework it's because they don't get a negative multiplier anymore, not solely because they're better.

 

Please don't compare the game (or parts of them game) with diseases.

 

Arty_McFly

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Culiacan_Mexico said:

Sub_Octavian

"...The 0.8.5 change is very massive, don't underestimate it. And it will remain - AA WILL be much more consistent, this is what we wanted to achieve responding to your feedback. However, if we see that plane losses are becoming excessive, we can now make much less significant change to compensate a bit (e.g. increasing plane HP by a few %). The problem with the new AA DPS change is that it could not really be incremental, it's more about black & white, so it's very natural to follow up on that with much lesser tweaks...."

"...0.8.5 change is not an entire solution of counterplay problem - it is an important and big (I believeyou will notice it in game) step. Making AA deal consistent DPS will be followed up by new priority sector, that by design should give much more counterplay feeling and will be easier to use. It will also, I believe, will aid DD most. Please wait for next week, when our CCT Summit informational embargo is lifted, you will learn the details. Cheers!..."

 

"...The main thing about 0.8.5 is the DPS application order. It is "plane by plane" now, and it will stay like this. This change is huge, kind of "black and white". With such scale, it is natural that AA makes huge and not always 100% accurate leap in efficiency. So we will react to it to make sure that CV are not overnerfed - and yes, with all due respect, CV should be hammered in healthy solid balance with all other classes - but not into the ground..."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Since 0.8.0 CV went live, WG has made some changes to game play that effected CVs, but initially, it doesn't seem like any of them were of this 'intensity.'

 

Okay, Sub_O and WG want the AA to be much more consistent.

It would be fine by me, if it weren't for this "black and white" thingy...

Then now I will even loose a plane or more when I strike the BB [insert well known name here], so that he just see the ribbon for "planes destroyed" and is satisfyed that his mighty badabumm ship with his 0 point captain could do that ^^

That is what I hate about "catering to feelings"

[Panocek]

3 minutes ago, Alipheese_XV said:

 

Okay, Sub_O and WG want the AA to be much more consistent.

It would be fine by me, if it weren't for this "black and white" thingy...

Then now I will even loose a plane or more when I strike the BB [insert well known name here], so that he just see the ribbon for "planes destroyed" and is satisfyed that his mighty badabumm ship with his 0 point captain could do that ^^

That is what I hate about "catering to feelings"

That and 0.8.5 AA dps change turned CVs into basically excel, or you could say, RTS game - "to do this spent x amount of planes".

 

Hmm, so RTS carriers returned... not in quite fashion everyone expected tho.

[Sunleader]

8 hours ago, Cambera_1 said:

@Sunleader

If you played any carrier balanced around the ability to strike multiple times quickly but with low squadron and reserve sizes together with low regeneration rates you would have valued your planes more and carefully selected your targets.

 

This game is about balance between the classes and because 2 USN and 2 IJN CVs have overperformed all have had multiple nerfs. Most of those nerfs have had little affect on the biggest problem CVs due to the amount of reserves that they have and their quick replenishment rates. 

Other carriers often don't have the hitting power because they are balanced around getting multiple quick strikes in. This after the nerfs is extremely difficult.

 

In attempting to balance the other classes, and I do play them more than CVs, I am a DD main, the balance is now well in favour of the surface ships with AA being too deadly.

I rarely had a problem with a CV, though a Midway did take a fancy to my Daring in Ranked battles.

In DDs I found proper use of AA mechanics together with manoeuvring to keep sector's facing the air threats, switch AA on and off and carefully watching the minimap was very effective.

 

I did find the Atlanta's AA to be underwhelming in the rework but LWM showed why.

Yes I have Simms and Des Moines too but few of my ships have DFAA, they haven't needed it. My two 'go to' ships for any missions to down aircraft have been T22 & Leander. These ships are effective in AA because the CVs don't expect them to be. 

 

 

1.

Mate no Offense at the Request.

But as I said. I just Finished Grinding T10 IJN CVs.

And pls note. I dont have USN CVs.

When this Topic went ahead.

They said Kaga has Paper Planes and cant Bomb in T10 Matches. So I went ahead and Proved them Wrong.

They said Graf Zeppelin is Weakest T8 CV of all. And so I went ahead and Showed that GZ is still completely Capable of just Killing everything in T10 including Kremlin, Minotaur etc

They Said I dont know about T10 CV. So I Grinded the Haku.

 

And Sorry.

But Seriously.

I am not Interested in now Right Away Grind UK T10 CVs just to Prove a Point lol.

My Graf Zeppelin has Fairly Low Reserves as well. And Obviously I am doing Super Fine.

 

And to Begin with. Balance within the Class can be Handled by within the Class Adjustments.

Its not Relevant to the Overall Class of CVs which is Still Performing beyond all others by the way :)

 

2.

I Disagree Heavily.

Balance is Still clearly in Favor of CVs.

There are Exceptions now which due to low Squadron Size Suffered Heavier from this Update and WILL BE BUFFED.

As WG has Already Stated.

But Overall. CVs are Still Easily able to get Really Good Games that other Surface Ships can only get if they are Extremely Lucky.

And CVs are Still Guaranteed a High amount of Damage in even a Bad Game.

 

What has Changed with the Update. Is that CVs now have to Play more Strategically again.

As a CV you now have to Spend more Time Scouting and looking for a Good Window to Attack.

You cant just Yolo Right into the Enemy anymore from whatever Position your in.

Because otherwise you lose all your Planes.

 

But as long as you Manage your Reserves and make sure you Withdraw only after Leaving AA,

Shorten your Squads before Suicide Runs and Time your Strikes from an Angle where you can Escape afterwards.

Losses are actually not that Bad.

Some CVs due to only having 6 Planes in a Squadron are currently Suffering from the Update. Because they lose 2 Aircraft on the way in and another 2 on the way out.

Thus having lost most of the Squad in the Run.

But WG already Said that they will likely be Buffed in a Hotfix this weekend anyways. So its not worth bothering with right now.

Because we dont know what Buffes we get at the Weekend.

 

3.

Yes.

This is also an Issue.

Many CV Players dont know which Ships are Dangerous. And thus dont React Correctly.

When they See a Minotaur or Kremlin. They will usually Predrop and then do a Boosted Run coming in from Cover if Possible and Fly with Slight Wiggling to Avoid Heavy Hits.

This way the Strong AA Ships often dont get that many Plane Kills. Because the CV is Aware of them Right away and will either Avoid them or only Attack them with the Proper Care.

Meanwhile if a Ship with Mediocre AA is Fully AA Specced. CVs will often not Realize it. And will Fly over them often not even Boosting or making any Evasive Maneuvers.

And then end up getting alot of Planes Killed because they completely misjudged the Situation.

 

 

6 hours ago, AirSupremacy said:

I find some truth lays in the Filibusting and the rest of the content, however - What're the opinions on the CV rework ?

I find that in the game version 0.8.5 the CV class players get de-planed too fast.

 

 

My Opinion on the 0.8.5 Update so Far.

Is that this is a Very Good Step in the Right Direction.

 

AA now actually Does Something.

Carriers actually now have to Show some Skill and Decision making. And have to Choose Targets.

They cant just Pick a Random Ship of the Enemy Team and basicly Harass it until its Dead.

They now have to look for Favorable Attack Windows and Positions.

Because otherwise they lose alot of Planes.

 

I do think that some CVs which only got very low Reserves or low Squad Sizes have been Hit a bit too hard by this Update.

And will need Minor Buffs to their Planes HP or Reserves.

So they either take less losses or can cope with the losses better.

 

While other CVs (eherm ENTERPRISE) are nearly unaffected by the Rework because they have Very Big Reserves, Very Big Squadrons or Very fast Plane Regeneration.

These Clearly need moderate Nerfs to be put back in line  with other CVs.

 

In Total.

CVs are Still very easy to Play.

And while their Average Damage will likely take a Hit by this.

They are Still Tremendously Efficient Spotters and still have an Tremendous amount of Influence on the Match.

 

But I do think that they are not Ridiculously Overpowered anymore.

 

3 hours ago, Culiacan_Mexico said:

Enough time to get his opinion across on 0.8.5?  Who are you to decide this?

 

Maybe he just Misunderstood the Topic Title and Forum Standard.

In many Game Forums the Devs make Feedback Topics which are Clearly Stated to not be Discussion Topics.

So every User is Supposed to make 1 or 2 Posts about his Opinion and Feedback and then Leave the Topic.

Not Discussing with each other. And most of all not having long Arguments about something.

But just Sharing your Opinion and then leaving for the next People to do the Same.

 

But this here is a clearly Titled Discussion Topic.

Not a Feedback Collection.

So a Handful of Users having an Argument is Perfectly Reasonable.

 

 

3 hours ago, Culiacan_Mexico said:

 

WG coming choice to increase hit points vs increased regeneration...

 

Wouldn't that be hardest on the less skilled CV players?

 

Potentially.

As it will help mostly the more Skilled CV Players which already know how to Avoid Losses and will take even less Losses like this.

While less Skilled Players will likely still lose the Entire Squadron.

 

I do think what would really Help.

Is if WG made an Announcement. That the F Key is not Intended to be pressed while your still inside the Enemy AA Area.

 

Because its Something I just see all the Time.

CVs Fly an Entire Torpedo Squadron into a Ship at the Edge of an AA Blob.

And after they Drop.

They dont Turn away to the Side to get out of the AA Blobs Range.

No they Fly Straight ahead over the Enemy Ship and then Press F when they are right in the Middle of 5-6 Enemy Ships.

Of course as a Result then losing pretty much the entire Squadron immediately.

[Mad_Dog_Dante]

2 hours ago, _Kettenbeisser said:

I think I need to remember you guys about some pre-rework facts.

Few players played them due to op AA (if players specced for it) and steep learning curve after manual drop removal from t4-5. 

They seemed op because nobody specced for AA anymore due to their low numbers. (Proof: AA cancer Divi could singlehandedly suppress enemy CV with just 2 AA ships)

After rework the constant economy nerf for cvs was removed resulting in higher net average exp. So if reworked cvs earn more exp and credits than pre rework it's because they don't get a negative multiplier anymore, not solely because they're better.

Not sure about the reason you point to as of why only a few players played CV. For me it wasn't OP AA, but the RTS style (I love the idea but I'm just not good at it) and being shut down by players that were actually good at playing them. In that regard the CV rework was a success for me personally as far as playing CV's goes. However, I was really shocked about the negative impact the rework had on everything else that was dear to me in this game, and even more shocked about how happy WG seemed to be with their abomination. We are currently experiencing hotfix upon hotfix, which is not a good sign in itself as these are improperly tested usually. And although I am not opposed to playing in a changing environment, I do feel WG has an obligation to test big fundamental changes better.

 

As for the current state of AA, I am fully OK with some ships being no fly zones. Every class needs it's fundamental weaknesses and CV's definitely need a few more. One of those would be vulnerability of the hull by removing the overbearing automated fighter and repair features and return to normal fire duration times. Another would be a select few AA heavy ships that are almost impossible to damage by a lone CV when AA specced. Mistakes need to be punished, yes even CV mistakes. But the current global hot fixes will only result in more weird solutions like targeting reserve planes instead of the ones attacking, planes getting killing when flying away mostly, 4 fighters taking off from the back of battleships and other immersion breaking spreadsheet solutions.