CV Rework Discussion

[TVLX]

9 minutes ago, arcticstorm123 said:

if you are reduced to just being a source of damage

 

give the CV's something to make the game enjoyable

Ironic.

 

The class that never takes damage (if played half way competently) and whos playstyle is completely negative to all other classes moaning about enjoyable play...

 

Never happy unless you have all the cake.

[Panocek]

19 minutes ago, HansiSolo said:

AI controlled AA is not a problem, the current AA is just too weak.

So where you draw the line of AA being "just right"? 100% shot down on first approach?

[leeuwbart]

5 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

Its you guys who Kept Arguing that Ships actually could Defend themselves against Aircraft if they just learned how to Play Properly.

And now your Suddenly saying that Surface Ships dont need to do anything for Planes to be Deleted ? :)

 

Way to Contradict yourself.

Your method of attacking people using overgeneralization is astonishing. At the same time it is extremely annoying as it is not based on anything and you wrongfully assume that someone did something. so please base your arguments on something actually usefull instead of overgeneralizing people. (because you do so i tend to skip your extremely long walls of texts in which the layout is already discouraging to read ontop of all the personal attacks you launch on anyone with a different opinion than your own)

[arcticstorm123]

Just now, TVLX said:

Ironic.

 

The class that never takes damage (if played half way competently) and whos playstyle is completely negative to all other classes moaning about enjoyable play...

 

Never happy unless you have all the cake.

Why so aggressive?

 

I play all classes, ...not well but I play them.., I enjoy cv's as much as any other class, sorry you don't like them but some of us do, and would like to find a way to fit them so everyone's happy, and I'd post pretty much the same if any other class of ship was nerfed to this extent.

 

There's no way you can have a calm reasoned discussion in this thread

[1MajorKoenig]

1 minute ago, leeuwbart said:

Your method of attacking people using overgeneralization is astonishing. At the same time it is extremely annoying as it is not based on anything and you wrongfully assume that someone did something. so please base your arguments on something actually usefull instead of overgeneralizing people. (because you do so i tend to skip your extremely long walls of texts in which the layout is already discouraging to read ontop of all the personal attacks you launch on anyone with a different opinion than your own)

 

He is certainly better off on the igno list. Saves some valuable space on screen (stopped reading these text walls a while ago anyway as these were not contributing to a fruitful discussion unfortunately).

 

However - good to see WG plans for a hotfix for next week. Let’s see if this can be fixed (which I still believe is possible).

 

 

[quickr]

40 minutes ago, Rose_Dikinson said:

Hello and thank you for your answer.

Stop being so polite _{I love it, don't stop}

 

41 minutes ago, Rose_Dikinson said:

I believe that the other things a CV does like for example spotting is to inconsistent for a team to take advantage of it. Since i want to strike fast and effectively i can't really just fly in circles and hope for my team to do the job.

It would be a different story if WG rewarded supporting actions more.

 

41 minutes ago, Rose_Dikinson said:

I can be anywhere on the map but if half the map is logically a no fly zone i'm heavily restricted in strike opportunities. 

It doesn't have to be that way. If a CV player focuses on spotting in early game (and gets rewarded for it) he could attack most ships in late game when most of them lose their AA due to HE spamming.

 

45 minutes ago, Rose_Dikinson said:

I can see why it might be annoying for some of the enemy team to be spotted as a sideeffect of me striking a nearby target but it's not like i'm omnipresent in that place because of the reasons i listed. Mainly the plane losses i will suffer.

Delayed rendering or map only spotting would resolve that issue.

 

 

 

There are ways to change and tune CVs to fit the game play, if only those in charge would listen. 

[Mad_Dog_Dante]

28 minutes ago, arcticstorm123 said:

Everyone who plays this game wants "glorious games" with high scores and the ability to dominate the game.

 

BB gets a good score or a kraken?, fine! send congratulations, same for DD or a CL.

 

But if a Cv does anywhere near the same (pretty much an impossibility since CV rework )?, omfg out come the pitch forks and torches!!!

 

I get some people have no interest in a particular class, and never want to play it, but other players do, and the incentive to play is removed if you are reduced to just being a source of damage, or the even more ridiculous comments I've seen about CV's becoming "support ships" dropping sonar buoys or repairing other ships...who the hell would want to play that?

 

We need to make the game fun for all classes, and most importantly at all tiers, Wargaming are making these changes just looking at tier X unicums, or what CC's like Notser says, with no thought as to how they affect tier IV, VI and even tier VIII CV players especially when up-tiered.

 

CV's do have a place, in particular for discouraging camping and island/border hugging, personally I couldn't care less about spotting, but give the CV's something to make the game enjoyable, because hopefully that's why we all play this game, to have fun.

 

(Re-post from "The return of the DD’s. Well, the bad ones anyway" as it's more relevant here)

Yep, great game design creates opportunities for every class you put into your levels. Understanding that, I'm not sure how you are surprised about the mob raising the pitch forks over the broken CV rework. CV's have been easily breaking the fun levels of a lot of other ships, in fact they have been the ultimate troll boats for a while now. Unlike you I care a lot about the spotting mechanics because most of my former favorite surface ships are glass cannons with little health and armor whose gameplay depend heavily on stealth, surprise attacks, setting up traps, flanking and more. The fun was instantly sucked out for those with the influx of carriers since 0.8.0, and most of them have been gathering dust waiting for WG to fix their broken stuff.

[leeuwbart]

7 minutes ago, arcticstorm123 said:

Why so aggressive?

 

I play all classes, ...not well but I play them.., I enjoy cv's as much as any other class, sorry you don't like them but some of us do, and would like to find a way to fit them so everyone's happy, and I'd post pretty much the same if any other class of ship was nerfed to this extent.

 

There's no way you can have a calm reasoned discussion in this thread

sadly there is not, too many types of problems smashed into one massive topic. it would have been better if it were split up in sections indicating the problems: general, spotting, damage done by planes, AA system.

i believe discussions would go a lot smoother that way.

[KillStealBoss]

56 minutes ago, UltraViking said:

His wording was CV in general and as i said there is a different playstyle with different carriers and actually GZ has the highest flood chance. So unless you are actually going for Fire from rockets and floods from torps then you are doing something wrong. 

 

dont be a smart [edited]Macarthur92 i know what im talking about.

 

 

Yeah sure...highest flood chance. Once I had 34 torp hits with 2 floods on GZ. Lmao.

[Panocek]

Quote

Four: no, CV tiering and MM will remain. It works well, apart, probably, from T8 CV having easier uptier compared to everyone else (before 0.8.5 at least).

[arcticstorm123]

6 minutes ago, Europizza said:

Unlike you I care a lot about the spotting mechanics because most of my former favorite surface ships are glass cannons with little health and armor whose gameplay depend heavily on stealth, surprise attacks, setting up traps, flanking and more. The fun was instantly sucked for those with the influx of carriers since 0.8.0, and most of them have been gathering dust waiting for WG to fix their broken stuff.

Maybe you interpreted my comment the wrong way, what I meant was if they removed/reduced spotting for CV's I couldn't care less, I don't want my primary function in a CV to be a spotter, and I agree this is one thing which would reduce a lot of the anger, only exception would be being able to spot an attacking dd (as in attacking my CV) at a reasonable range (argue among yourselves about what "reasonable" is)

[Prospect_b]

11 minutes ago, Panocek said:

You saw that too eh. I'm still trying to decrypt that sentence. At first it looks like hilarious/idiotic, as if he's saying t8 cvs have the easy life when uptiered.

 

But there's a possibility he made an unfortunate mistake in trying to put his words together. He says " [CVs being uptiered and mm] works well APART FROM (T8)", so he's obviously trying to say something that DOESN'T go well for t8 cvs.

 

He might mean the "easier" as in "they (t8 cv) have (way) more likely chance to get uptiered". In Dutch we can use (our word for) "easy" somewhat similar.

 

I'll try another ping, probably in vain, for some clarification. @Sub_Octavian ?

[Mad_Dog_Dante]

6 minutes ago, arcticstorm123 said:

Maybe you interpreted my comment the wrong way, what I meant was if they removed/reduced spotting for CV's I couldn't care less, I don't want my primary function in a CV to be a spotter, and I agree this is one thing which would reduce a lot of the anger, only exception would be being able to spot an attacking dd (as in attacking my CV) at a reasonable range (argue among yourselves about what "reasonable" is)

Yeah sorry,m I misunderstood, thanks for clearing that up. I feel the same, playing CV feels detached from the game below as it is, and decent CV players are already pretty efficient at defending themselves against DD's, so I don''t even think there needs to be an exception for DD's.

[arcticstorm123]

26 minutes ago, Europizza said:

Yeah sorry,m I misunderstood, thanks for clearing that up. I feel the same, playing CV feels detached from the game below as it is, and decent CV players are already pretty efficient at defending themselves against DD's, so I don''t even think there needs to be an exception for DD's.

np it's hard to write what I mean sometimes 

 

Yeah understand that, if you accept CV spotting gets nerfed way back I would just prefer a dd not to spring into view 6km away with no chance to take any action or take evasive is what I was thinking , maybe give CV's enough secondaries to at least make it a fair fight 

[Yare_Yare]

13 hours ago, Culiacan_Mexico said:

Isn't that what happened?  0.8.0 CVs are easier to 'play' when compared with RTS CVs.

It happenned in 8.0 but they have been nerfed into the ground while the at the Same time the AA got buffed and more AA ships were introduced. You basicly need to put just as much unnessesairy micromanagement effort into playing a CV as it was before the rework if you dont want to end up with no planes, defeating the whole purpose.

[mariouus]

8 minutes ago, Saiyko said:

You saw that too eh. I'm still trying to decrypt that sentence. At first it looks like hilarious/idiotic, as if he's saying t8 cvs have the easy life when uptiered.

Actually, If you look at some particpants in this Topic, who have no idea of game-mechanics or tactics, nor any coherent thought in their empty heads.

 

And you can actually see that they are doing mutch-mutch better in their tier.8 CV than in any other tier.8 non-CV class.

 

I think he sayes exactly what he means.

[Yare_Yare]

5 hours ago, Tirande said:

AA is weak and the Atlanta-class can't shoot down planes anymore right? :D I should add, no defensive fire was used in the purging of these planes, nor did either CV try to strike me, they lost all their planes flying anywhere within my AA range. I don't see this as healthy balance; looking at the number of planes shot down here. Before the anti-CV zasshu crowd starts whining; names are redacted as to comply to forum rules, as you can see the CVs weren't that bad scoring above most of their surface peasants. AA was overtuned and now it's just even more overtuned and dumb..... seeing this makes me even less interested in Ark Royal; if Enterprise + Kaga can't get through a T7 CL's AA then I dread to see what a T6 equivalent of Kaga will do with ultra slow planes (yay Swordfish TBs finally... ffs WG took you long enough.) against T8 AA.

thank you this is exactly what im talking about

[Sanepidi]

3 hours ago, Sunleader said:

See Mate.

I dont think so at all.

 

The Early Damage Nerfs were clearly Good.

If they had not Done then we would likely Sit at an Average Damage of like 200k for CVs right now.

Because CVs basicly went ahead getting 500k Games.

 

But the thing is. This did not nowhere near enough to Fix the problem.

If we had Continued down this Road. CVs would have Remained Ridiculously Overpowered for another 6-8 Months before we had come anywhere close to even the levels we got now.

And even now I do consider CVs to be very Strong.

 

BUT After the Update.

I dont Consider them Ridiculously Overpowered anymore.

Because an Average Potato Like me. No Longer can just go out and do a 200k Damage Match in a T8 CV in T10 just to Prove to others that CVs are Overpowered.

Now I really need to Pay Attention. Because if I do Silly Stuff like I did before the Update. And just Keep Bombing that Blob of 7 Ships. I end up Deplaned and only do like 40k Damage in a Match.

 

And this was urgently Needed.

You're that they needed to be changed. They were OP. They made already alot to change it in the right direction.

All those nerfs were right one but that last patch was a little too much and made game even easier for weak players.

 

Yes easier because you lose planes whatever you do. Flaks are not so hard to avoid. But maybe it was the problem? Flaks should be more random and harder to avoid and that dmg should stay unchanged?

 

You write alot about CV's but you have played till now once on T10 CV. Try to play Haku now. Than write what you think about that change.

 

Now even really good player can't do alot of dmg, because DMG is constant. You can naturally land more hits but if enemy makes blob. What happens alot now you will lose all your planes in matter of seconds!

 

What is stupid, that they fix DMG model and leave other things unchanged:

1. Heal on torpedo bombers - usless

2. Planes after carrying strike die even quicker now. 80% chance of death of all planes after strike.

 

It's pointless that discussion, they will make one more change to undo changes a little bit, to make CV playable to some point and they don't give a crap to what majority of players say.

 

How oft they promised to see CV in CW? Alot of time, never happend? You can't trust what they say

[Woof_for_Me]

Vor 46 Minuten, quickr sagte:

Stop being so polite _{I love it, don't stop}

I will try to make your experience while talking with me as pleasant as possible of course.

Thank you for your explainations, they greatly help me to better understand CVs.

 

Have a nice day!

[Culiacan_Mexico]

23 minutes ago, Yare_Yare said:

It happenned in 8.0 but they have been nerfed into the ground while the at the Same time the AA got buffed and more AA ships were introduced. You basicly need to put just as much unnessesairy micromanagement effort into playing a CV as it was before the rework if you dont want to end up with no planes, defeating the whole purpose.

So, you are not actually talking about how easy they are to play, but the amount of effort, skill, or knowledge needed to score large numbers.

[Sunleader]

35 minutes ago, leeuwbart said:

Your method of attacking people using overgeneralization is astonishing. At the same time it is extremely annoying as it is not based on anything and you wrongfully assume that someone did something. so please base your arguments on something actually usefull instead of overgeneralizing people. (because you do so i tend to skip your extremely long walls of texts in which the layout is already discouraging to read ontop of all the personal attacks you launch on anyone with a different opinion than your own)

 

I am not Intending to Attack you at all.

I just find it rather Hilarious. That before this Update. I constantly said how bad it is that AA is entirely Automatic and that the Player basicly has little to no Influence on preventing any Air Attacks.

And the Standard Answer I got from CV Players. (Most of which never even Play Surface Ships or had Personal Ratings of like 400 for everything but CVs.)

Was that I just need to Learn Playing and that they can Easily Defend against Air Attacks etc.

Giving me Advice like Adjusting AA Sector, Maneuvering, Driving in Blob etc etc.

 

And I explained to People in Detail like 20 Times.

That this Rework will Never be Balanced. Because with the Automatic AA will Always only Allow 1 out of 2 Options.

1. Attacks get Through and the CV keeps doing Damage thus being Overpowered because Surface Ships are Helpless against it.

Or

2. Attacks dont get Through and the CV keeps having his Planes Killed thus becoming useless because he cant really pose a Bigger Threat to a Surface Ship.

 

All of which was Dismissed by you CV Players Downvoting me and telling me how Noob I am etc etc.

 

 

And now.

After the Update.

Suddenly the CV Players keep telling me. How the AA is Automatic. And how the CV cant do anything about it. And how its Unfair that the Surface Ship is Defended from your Planes without doing anything himself :)

 

 

And Sorry.

But this is Hilarious to me.

I wont Lie.

I am Laughing my Rear Off at this.

 

Especially because I already Told People over a Month ago. That this is exactly what is going to happen sooner or Later.

And that instead of trying to Defend their totally Overpowered CVs they should rather Support a Push for a new System instead.

 

Also.

Pls Note.

Unlike the CV Crowd. Which never managed to Provide any Evidence that they Really are Capable of Defending themselves against Aircraft Attacks.

 

I have actually since Yesterday Provided Evidence Several Times.

That you can Manage Plane losses. And that you can actually still Bomb Cruisers.

Including even Bombing a Minotaur with my T8 CV till it Smoked up.

 

 

So if you Feel like I am Attacking you.

I am Sorry about that.

Because its not my Intention.

 

But Please also dont Expect any Sympathy from me over this.

Because in my Eyes this Nerf was Urgently Needed. And since I am still able to easily Perform very well with CVs.

It is pretty obviously nowhere close to Impossible like you guys try to claim it is :)

 

 

19 minutes ago, Panocek said:

 

Yep.

I assume that some CVs especially the ones with smaller Squad Sizes will get some Buff to the HP of their Aircraft.

So they Survive a bit Longer :)

 

4 minutes ago, Sanepidi said:

You're that they needed to be changed. They were OP. They made already alot to change it in the right direction.

All those nerfs were right one but that last patch was a little too much and made game even easier for weak players.

 

Yes easier because you lose planes whatever you do. Flaks are not so hard to avoid. But maybe it was the problem? Flaks should be more random and harder to avoid and that dmg should stay unchanged?

 

You write alot about CV's but you have played till now once on T10 CV. Try to play Haku now. Than write what you think about that change.

 

Now even really good player can't do alot of dmg, because DMG is constant. You can naturally land more hits but if enemy makes blob. What happens alot now you will lose all your planes in matter of seconds!

 

What is stupid, that they fix DMG model and leave other things unchanged:

1. Heal on torpedo bombers - usless

2. Planes after carrying strike die even quicker now. 80% chance of death of all planes after strike.

 

It's pointless that discussion, they will make one more change to undo changes a little bit, to make CV playable to some point and they don't give a crap to what majority of players say.

 

How oft they promised to see CV in CW? Alot of time, never happend? You can't trust what they say

 

1.

Yep they Urgently needed to be Nerfed.

And I actually dont think it was too Much to be Honest.

It was too much for a few CVs which due to small Squad Size and Few Planes Suffer from this.

While for other CVs which have Tons of Planes. Thus Change was actually not enough at all and they need Require Further Nerfs.

 

2.

No.

Sorry but this is Rubbish. This did not became easier for Weak Players at all.

Good Players can still Limit Plane Losses Pretty Good as I have Proven Several Times now.

Weak Players come here Crying that the AA Deletes their Squadrons because they Fly into AA Blobs :P

 

3.

Actually I just did. LOL xD

I Finished the Grind Yesterday. But Lacked the Money to Buy it :)

Bought it Today and took it out for a Ride.

Wasnt a Bad Match for me.

2 Kills, 130k Damage. One of the Kills was a Montana by the way. Which I dealt 45k Damage to in Repeated Attacks before Sinking it *gg*

Not bad for the First Attempt with Stock Planes isnt it :)

 

Unfortunately my Team Sucked.

And the 2 Kills I made Were the only Kills our entire Team Made xD

So we Lost.

 

Will of course Play Further Games.

But dont get me Wrong.

I dont think anything will Change.

I am merely using Stock Planes currently. And Despite that. The Hakus Planes are Extremely Resistant to AA Fire.

And the Damage Output is Pretty high.

If I dont have any Trouble Performing like this with Stock Planes.

Then I somehow Doubt that it will get any worse as I unlock later Planes.

 

4.

Oh ?

Then Sorry. But if even Good Player cant do alot of Damage.

Why did an Average Potato like me.

Just do 130k Damage in his Very First T10 CV Game with Stock Planes without losing all his Planes ? :)

 

5.

Heal TBs is actually Super Useful.

It Gives you an Short Immunity Zone where you can Prevent Losses.

And which can be Used either for an Attack Run with an Squadrons that doesnt have Spares anymore.

Or to Escape from AA Range after an Attack without Suffering too many Losses in the Strong Medium AA Range.

 

6.

Also Rubbish.

In my First Game with the Haku I usually easily Managed to do 2 Bomb Runs on the Montana.

In the Attack Run despite the Montana having Pretty Strong AA.

I usually lost maybe 30% of the Squad.

 

7.

If they didnt care about what Majority of Players Says.

CVs would have been in Clanwars for Months Now.

But CVs were Incredible Unbalanced so far.

And putting them into CW would have resulted in even Bigger Crabstorms by the Community then they already got anyways.

 

Thats why they Listened to the Community which has been Pleading with them to Spare CWs this Rubbish.

 

 

 

 

[Culiacan_Mexico]

1 hour ago, arcticstorm123 said:

There's no way you can have a calm reasoned discussion in this thread

Difficult. There are some who like to talk, but between those that dislike CVs in any form and the CV Fanboys who were freaking out at... well virtually any discussion... it can be amusing.

[Yare_Yare]

6 hours ago, Sunleader said:

 

1.

The Hotfixes before did pretty much nothing.

And that was Reflected in the massive Toxicity of the Community which grew ever more tired of this.

CVs being a Curse and Bane of the entire Game causing People to Quit the Game entirely because when a CV was in a Match.

The Match was Incredible Frustrating for all the Non CV Players.

 

2.

I can Explain that rather easily for you.

For the last 6 Months the Small Step Balancing basicly did nothing to Alleviate the Complaints of the Community of which over 70% clearly said that the Rework is a Complete Failure and that CVs Completely Destroy the Game now.

People have in Fact Started Leaving the Game over this. So WG likely Decided that they Should make a Radical Change to get closer to an Acceptable Position.

 

3.

Mate no Offense. But WG Also Sells other Premium Ships at high Prices.

And these were Completely Destroyed by CVs being so Overpowered.

What about these People ?

You think they found it Cool that they Bought a T8-T9 Premium Ship which they possibly even worked for like Crazy.

And then basicly ended up just being FarmFodder for CVs Dominating the Matches ?

 

 

 

If you only Played CVs because they were Ridiculously Overpowered then you should never have Played them at all.

 

 

1.

I as Average Potato do about 90k Average Damage in CV but often only like 40-60k in other Ships.

This is just 1 Person and 1 Ship Example.

And the Overall Stats look quite Different.

If you Check the Overal Stats.

The Top5% for T10 CVs do 150k while the Top5% for T10 BBs only 130k

 

2.

Lol Yes. Since the Rework I am Clearly against CVs.

Because CVs were Ridiculously Overpowered. And Needed to be Nerfed.

By the way I am not alone. Majority of the Community was not Happy with how OP CVs were so far.

 

3.

LOOOOL.

Mate

Do you know what Zero Skill Players do in other Ships ?

0

CVs with Zero Skills doing 30-60k is in itself an Admittance that they were Overpowered as Hell.

 

And No. I dont Play CVs LOOOOOL

 

My Stats for the Few Games I played Yesterday to Test the New Update.

(Not Including the Match I had with MacArthur later)

 

And then Matches I played this Month so far.

When CVs were still Ridiculously Overpowered so that even an Average Casual Potato like me.

Which has very little Skills in this Game.

Could easily Dominate a Match in a CV even if he never had the Skills to do it with any other Ship.

 

 

 

But Yeah. I dont Play CVs Clearly xD

 

 

 

 

You cant just look at the plain numbers to balance them, do you not know how Damage math works?? Carriers cant dev strike , they only do little bits of damage over time so they NEED to have much more raw damage over the course of the battle in order to be as effective as other ships. If a Yamato dev strikes a Conqueror for 80k Damage at the beginning of a Match and then dies  thats WAY more impactful then if a Carrier was doing 80k  damage to him over the course of 15min allowing him to use multiple repair partys. In order to compensate for that lack of alpha strike Carriers need to have roughly three times the raw damage over the course of the battle in order to achieve the same netto Damage done as other ship classes.

Its the same reason why in any other video game like RPGs small bits of damage like Dots usually do twice as much damage per cast as direct hits of same power. If Carriers would have the same average DMG as other ships they would be totally useless and would have zero impact on the battle. 

[Latur_Husky]

It's not AA that is a problem now but the way CV attacks and damage output of such. What's the point of launching 3 or 4 times more planes than attack run if you can do only one and what it does is almost nothing (with maybe few exceptions).

[Culiacan_Mexico]

"As 0.8.5 changes have brought much needed and requested AA DPS consistency (horray!), seems like in many cases the plane losses became slightly excessive, and CV efficiency was nerfed too much."

 

Global nerfs!

 

Hopefully, since WG has now achieved "Consistency", that "slightly excessive" loss in planes can be adjusted.

 

Increased regeneration for some CVs?