CV Rework Discussion

[Mad_Dog_Dante]

3 minutes ago, Allied_Winter said:

So in conclusion:

 

- He gets focused for almost the whole game

- The CV doesn't manage to sink him with one or two strikes but devotes more than 10 minutes for that

- iChase still manages to dish out 100k+ DMG

- his team wins because the CV ignores the collapsing flank to focuse on one ship/CC

 

Or in other words: One ships "sacrifices" himself so that the reamining ships can pull the team to a win.

 All of that and he still had a crap game. Casual game design is not about balancing classes, it's about balancing fun.

[thisismalacoda]

Vor 7 Minuten, Allied_Winter sagte:

So in conclusion:

 

- He gets focused for almost the whole game

- The CV doesn't manage to sink him with one or two strikes but devotes more than 10 minutes for that

- iChase still manages to dish out 100k+ DMG

- his team wins because the CV ignores the collapsing flank to focuse on one ship/CC

 

Or in other words: One ships "sacrifices" himself so that the reamining ships can pull the team to a win.

Did you watch it with sound? He complains about the game design, not the balancing, not the match result. I quote him 'this feels like eating sh it' [apologies for circumventing the forums autocorrect, but this should stand verbatim]

[Allied_Winter]

1 minute ago, Europizza said:

All of that and he still had a crap game.

So he had a crap game because he got focused for ... what was it? 12 minutes?

 

So what, that's part of the game. It's the same when a Khaba goes after my BB for 12 minutes. Annoying, maybe. But not really game braking or something.

 

As said: Somebody has to be the sacrificial lamb.

 

1 minute ago, thisismalacoda said:

Did you watch it with sound? He complains about the game design, not the balancing, not the match result. I quote him 'this feels like eating sh it'

I heared that. And to me that's just the complain of a player that's tired of being the sole focus of another player. Sure, annoying, but part of the game.

[ApolloF117]

16 minutes ago, Allied_Winter said:

 

So what, that's part of the game. It's the same when a Khaba goes after my BB for 12 minutes. Annoying, maybe. But not really game braking or something.

You can kill the khaba in 12m (if you cant then you have a problem there), you cant kill the cv cos she is way out of range, and since AA is random/useless/RNG/s h i t ,your hope to effectively fight back also [edited], so how is it part of the game?

[Allied_Winter]

9 minutes ago, ApolloF117 said:

your hope to effectively fight back

 

The whole video is how to effectively fight back a CV. To quote somebody from reddit: 

 

Quote

He complains about it while counter playing the CV perfectly. He positions well in regard to his own team (he pushes up too far in relation the enemy surface ships but manages to extricate himself), and that means the CV can only get one drop in per squadron. He dodges a lot of the CV's attacks. The CV spends half the game on him and does hardly any damage (two thirds of his damage taken is from enemy surface ships).

That is the counter play. This video is like a "how to counter play CV's" video, but with the wrong voice over!

 

THAT is your way of fighting back. Sinking the CV itself is a bonus.

 

Also: Please watch your language and follow the forum rules! 

[Sprockett]

I heared that. And to me that's just the complain of a player that's tired of being the sole focus of another player. Sure, annoying, but part of the game.

 

 

@Allied_Winter sorry dude but with being focused by a Khaba you can sail into cover, out of line of sight etc. If you have a good team with you, then a cruiser will head to shut down the Khaba. Not the same with the CV, had Ichase turned away and sailed south then the CV can still get him, if you goes behind an Island to break line of sight, the CV can still have you. 

 

CV's are in their current state and if you are not a CV player then there is NO FUN FOR YOU. I have tried many tactics against CV's, and as Ichase says CV players do not have to be super Unicom they just have to be competent and they will ruin your game. They have too much power, and ability to ruin anybodies game. THE AA is RNG based, so no skill involved, so no skilled counter play for the anybody not CV. The truth is I do not bother capping in any ship as, as soon as you do the enemy CV will come and focus you, and it is irrelevant if you are blob of ships or not,.

 

Basically the fun is leaving this game and is frustrating old players like my self, Ichase etc, into just not playing. Because I play games for fun. not frustration... 

[Allied_Winter]

33 minutes ago, Sprockett said:

the CV can still have you. 

Fair enough, I don't see that as a problem. Mostly because I don't care about being focused or not. The result is what matters (to me).

 

34 minutes ago, Sprockett said:

then there is NO FUN FOR YOU

As someone on reddit worded it:

 

Quote

Perhaps this video more than anything shows the differences in what constitutes "balance" in one's eyes: winning the game, or letting people "get their fun" no matter what.

 

As long as I win, I do have fun. That's the only thing that matters to me. Thus, I don't mind being focused or attacked all game.

 

But I also see that this is not everybody's perspective. However I don't see that the underlying problem ("What is balance: Winning the game or letting people get their fun) is not something WG can resolve.

[ApolloF117]

39 minutes ago, Allied_Winter said:

50 minutes ago, ApolloF117 said:

your hope to effectively fight back

 

The whole video is how to effectively fight back a CV.

Da tovarish, then just remove aa from every ship and buff mobility to the next level , since this is your definition of fighting back against a carrier. 

[Altsak]

If iChase didn't find playing the "perfect counterplay against CVs" fun, will we in a few months be left with a playerbase that actually likes to be abused by the CVs?

[El2aZeR]

4 hours ago, tomo64r said:

If iChase is fustrated, What about less skiled players like me?

 

To put a little bit of context into that video:

No, he did not have adequate levels of AA protection despite saying that he did.

Kutuzov has comparable AA to a Pensacola nowadays. No close range AA either meaning planes no longer take damage once crossing a certain distance. So her AA is absolutely worthless. Kutuzov can no longer be considered an AA ship, stop acting like she is.

Vladi likewise has comparable AA to a Pensacola. And again, no close range AA. This means having a Kutuzov in close proximity with a Vladi planes will take no damage whatsoever after crossing a certain distance. Funnily enough that means having his Kutuzov div mate sail next to him was a horrendous MISPLAY. Let that sink in for a moment.

The only ship in proximity with decent AA is DoY. And she actually has T10 cruiser levels of AA. Too bad she is sitting behind an island so her AA doesn't contribute at all.

 

So in reality we have a T8 CV attacking what basically amounts to two T6 ships in terms of AA. iChase is asking for consistency, this is precisely what can be considered a consistent result. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

(I'm not saying this is fine, I actually think this is ing stupid, but it's the reality of the situation.)

[Hundigo]

42 minutes ago, Allied_Winter said:

Fair enough, I don't see that as a problem. Mostly because I don't care about being focused or not. The result is what matters (to me).

*SNIP*

However I don't see that the underlying problem ("What is balance: Winning the game or letting people get their fun) is not something WG can resolve.

Really ? Then why WG is "hotfixing" the game from the first moment they've launched the CV rework ? 

Then why we have the one upgrade (for balance) after the other ? 

Then why WG is having again an upgrade 08.04 to try to solve some issue's already with the CV rework for the other classes like the DD's ? 

The nerf for the CV's is big in comparising other ships with the 08.04 update: "CV's has to start later in the game and all their speed is also reduced". 

Shall it solve any issue's the other players have with them ? We doubt. 

 

If 08.04 doesn't give any other surface change to counter the CV's, then for most players it shall be the end of their gameplay with this game. Because there's simply not any fun with CV games  for the other classes. 

[Yosha_AtaIante]

You can't really balance around "fun" effectively because it's very subjective.

You might even call me an anomaly in thatregard because i think the CV rework is very fun in any shipclass to play.

Expecting WG to balance around "fun"... nah.

[ApolloF117]

6 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

Kutuzov can no longer be considered an AA ship, stop acting like she is.

Just like atlanta and every ship that had strong AA before with AA specialization, its fine comrade, so can i have my steel back for my flint?

[Yosha_AtaIante]

Vor 1 Minute, Hundigo sagte:

then for most players it shall be the end of their gameplay with this game

Good thing. They are torturing themselves needlessly. Let them leave it won't be a huge number anyway

[Allied_Winter]

1 minute ago, Hundigo said:

Then why WG is "hotfixing" the game from the first moment they've launched the CV rework ? 

Because balancing the game is possible. Balancing the players (better: their mindsets) playing the game is not

[Hundigo]

Really ? Read the posts then in this forumtopic. Even the CV players self admitted that it isn't balanced at all with the CV's and not even after the numerous hotfixes and upgrades. 

[ApolloF117]

1 minute ago, Allied_Winter said:

Balancing the players (better: their mindsets) playing the game is not

Aye, the players fault was bringing an unfinished pile of junk in the game... We need SerB back again , at least he kept these "life forms" at bay with balancing

[Hopeless_Guppy]

9 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

 

Enterprise planes are actually a lot more durable than GZ planes.

And funnily enough she also excels in T10 matches due to her fast regenerating reserves, ludicrous alpha strike and target preference against two of the most influential ship types, one of which is supposed to counter her, while keeping every plane type viable (meaning she gets full use out of her huge reserves unlike most other CVs where one plane type is usually sub-par) and retaining excellent impact against everything else.

 

I can assure you that E outclasses GZ at higher skill levels just like she does every CV in the game except Midway. This is a T10 CV in disguise. Her only downfalls are meh plane speed, that her DBs rely on RNG and a rather high skill requirement when up tiered. Make that last part up though and she will utterly destroy entire teams on her own.

I know I'm not really allowed to express opinions in here, but I think the Big E and the GZ are perfect tier 8 CV's, you yourself said the Big E was nearly usurping the Midway in credit making in another thread, big E is far easier to live with the than the Midway, and more fun, now i have her so the lexi can earn more fxp, I was almost in the mind yesterday to rage sell her. The Brit tier 10, is to me on equal par with any tier 8 CV, (ie: weak because it is a Brit) I have yet to sample the IJN one but somehow i am looking forward to that one.

[Hopeless_Guppy]

Just now, ApolloF117 said:

Aye, the players fault was bringing an unfinished pile of junk in the game... We need SerB back again , at least he kept these "life forms" at bay with balancing

Whatever happened to Serb B, was he sent to Gulag?

[Prospect_b]

1 hour ago, El2aZeR said:

The only ship in proximity with decent AA is DoY. And she actually has T10 cruiser levels of AA.

You're joking, right?

[Procrastes]

52 minutes ago, Allied_Winter said:

The whole video is how to effectively fight back a CV. To quote somebody from reddit: 

 

THAT is your way of fighting back. Sinking the CV itself is a bonus.

 

1 hour ago, Allied_Winter said:

As said: Somebody has to be the sacrificial lamb.

 

... And to me that's just the complain of a player that's tired of being the sole focus of another player. Sure, annoying, but part of the game.

 

I agree that the video seems to be a very good illustration on how to effectively fight back against a CV. If you merely look at the result of the battle, iChase obviously had a very good game.

If, on the other hand, you look at his personal experience, he just as obviously had a very bad game. He wasn't having any fun.

 

For me, at least, that is the heart of the matter: I play this game in order to have fun. If I stop having fun, there is little reason to continue playing. I certainly won't stay in the game solely in order to play the part of "sacrificial lamb" on a regular basis, simply due to having chosen to play in something other than a carrier. And while it's true that sometimes being focused down is part of the game, you usually have the chance to bite back and make your opponent pay for it. In many cases, you can even turn the tables around and sink him. Not so when you are targeted by a carrier - the most you can count on doing then, is to take up his time and maybe shoot down a bucket of planes in the bargain. Merely acting as a punching bag can get old pretty fast, though, no matter how tactically useful it can sometimes be.

 

Please don't take this post as whining - it is not intended as such. The reason I bother to post at all, is that I can relate to the feelings iChase expresses in his video. I recently played a game in one of my destroyers, where there were carriers in play and where our CV played a very good game. And while doing this, he - quite unintentionally and simply by being a good CV player - ensured that I could do virtually no useful spotting or torping at all. It would probably be too much to say that our CV made my DD redundant, but it certainly felt that way. We won the battle, I played an active role, I stayed in the game to the very end, I got a good load of xp - and yet, when the battle finished, I realized that I hadn't been having any fun.

 

This was new.

 

Now, I've had a lot of fun games since then - but, I'm sorry to say, less and less fun in battles with carriers in play. I am not saying that I intend to quit the game or anything, but I have begun to feel a bit of the same frustration that iChase gives voice to in his video. By what I can gather from other posts in this and other threads, I am not alone in this.

 

For me, playing games is all about having fun. Hopefully, WoWs gameplay can be balanced so that it can be equally fun for all ship classes - which is perhaps not currently the case?

 

Cheers!

[DFens_666]

2 hours ago, Allied_Winter said:

Or in other words: One ships "sacrifices" himself so that the reamining ships can pull the team to a win.

 

So, if you are getting fed up by being sacrificed, and stop play the game what will eventually happen

[Mad_Dog_Dante]

2 hours ago, Allied_Winter said:

So he had a crap game because he got focused for ... what was it? 12 minutes?

 

So what, that's part of the game. It's the same when a Khaba goes after my BB for 12 minutes. Annoying, maybe. But not really game braking or something.

 

As said: Somebody has to be the sacrificial lamb.

 

I heared that. And to me that's just the complain of a player that's tired of being the sole focus of another player. Sure, annoying, but part of the game.

The video is not about the game breaking results in this particular match, it's about the broken fun factor of most his matches lately. The exact reason why I can't be arsed to play much anymore, even when my results went up.

[El2aZeR]

23 minutes ago, Saiyko said:

You're joking, right?

 

Nope.

In fact she has twice the close range AA of a Seattle, almost reaching same values as DM mid range.

 

#gloriousbbmasterrace

[Prospect_b]

1 hour ago, El2aZeR said:

#gloriousbbmasterrace

We really need a meme pic for this, cause it's getting ridiculous.

 

That ichase vid seems related as well tbh. Couldn't bother to watch the entire thing cause I can only stand so much whine, but did he really complain about being focussed all game and then I had to skip to 15 minutes (ingame time) to find him dead? Goddamn weak BBs.