CV Rework Discussion

[Yosha_AtaIante]

Vor 5 Minuten, B051LjKo sagte:

Offcourse there is counterplay ,but the point is, make it as hard for CV as possible. Don't roam around alone, stick together, and make CV pay the price for every damage she makes... And it makes a difference. In a good blob, you can even dodge the flak, you just get annihilated...  That alone is enough to limit the damage of the CV and reduce its impact on the game.

Blobbing is impact created by the CV.

 

[Sunleader]

9 minutes ago, L0V3_and_PE4CE said:

Yes you also lost a good amount of planes which is the point in Kagas playstyle.

But usually, if you can help it you definetly shouldn't be doing these kind of attacks in the influence of an AA ship like a wooster.

But good efforts.

Well you are aware anyways since you called it a foolery so why am i even saying this to you :)

 

Anyway the screenshot of your divebombers having 5k health left while approaching that wooster. A wooster with DFAA burns through them (healthy aa modules) an 4 to 5 seconds if not faster especially with other ships AA in the mix.

 

Aye. This was a Game I played pretty unusual because I explicitly wanted to demonstrate things.

 

After all if you Check the post Battle Screen.

I am a T8 CV and I not only Bombed the Worcester with 1 Squad of each type just to prove that this works. (Which is ridiculous cause I am a Kaga. I got Torps and HE Bombs. So I can Bomb DDs and BBs. For Cruisers it would be way better to have AP Bombs.)

 

I also on purpose Bombed the Moskwa and the other two behind the Worcester to show off that I can Bomb a T10 Blob.

 

If I had been playing Seriously I would have Bombed Ships closer to me and on the forefront of the Blob.

Not Bomb Ships behind the Worcester on purpose crossing the Center of the Blob.

 

Also.

If you Check the Screenshot.

Its not in Approach of the Worcester.

Its AFTER I bombed the Worcester.

 

The 4 Aircraft missing is the ones that Dropped.

If this had been TBs I would have done that Pass on the Worcester without Losses as I could have Healed the 8 Remaining Planes before doing the next pass :P

 

 

 

5 minutes ago, B051LjKo said:

Well, he asked, and I've played and posted... In the next game I got radared and killed almost instantly. I havent played DDs for a while, but from the few games today, radar seems to be a much bigger problem the CVs... At least in Kagero... I can hide, smoke, dodge... When radared, I cant do anything,and am to slow to run away, so that means basically dance at the 10 km range

 

I asked you to prove that other T8 Ships can bring Similar Results in T10 Matches as a Noob like me can do with a Kaga.

 

And I also asked you to Play other Classes in General for a week or two.

To actually get a feeling for the Game with the Overpowered CVs.

 

 

A Game with a Single Tier 6 CV in a T8 Match is not really mattering to either of these Requests.

 

[El2aZeR]

6 minutes ago, B051LjKo said:

And it makes a difference. In a good blob, you can even dodge the flak, you just get annihilated...  That alone is enough to limit the damage of the CV and reduce its impact on the game.

 

Yeah, I didn't totally just list 4 ways to prevent that. And it's hardly all of them.

Surface ships will start dying a lot faster than they will have an appreciable effect on CV reserves if you just abuse what the devs are saying are "working as intended" mechanics. Ranked is a 7vs7, of which two are going to be CVs. Even with all remaining ships clustered together they will inevitably remain vulnerable.

[Sunleader]

10 minutes ago, B051LjKo said:

Offcourse there is counterplay ,but the point is, make it as hard for CV as possible. Don't roam around alone, stick together, and make CV pay the price for every damage she makes... And it makes a difference. In a good blob, you can even dodge the flak, you just get annihilated...  That alone is enough to limit the damage of the CV and reduce its impact on the game.

 

1.

No there is not.

Hiding in the Back so your Team in front gets Massacred might make you survive.

But its not Counterplay.

2.

CVs dont pay any Price.

They resupply Aircraft without Limit.

In the old System this might have worked.

Because the CV has very limited Aircraft and each Aircraft less in the Air at once greatly decreased its ability to compete with the Enemy CV.

But after Rework.

Where you can lose more Bombers than your CV could carry before. And where you only got one Squadron under Control.

Losses make nearly no Difference.

3.

Except thats bullcrab.

Someone has to be on the outer side of the Blob.

And except BBs nobody has the Range to actually Fight from inside the Blob.

So a Blob is entirely useless.

[Hundigo]

13 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

Yeah, I didn't totally just list 4 ways to prevent that. And it's hardly all of them.

Surface ships will start dying a lot faster than they will have an appreciable effect on CV reserves if you just abuse what the devs are saying are "working as intended" mechanics. Ranked is a 7vs7, of which two are going to be CVs. Even with all remaining ships clustered together they will inevitably remain vulnerable.

So Ranked battle's shall be a round to see who's the best CV player in the game and all the rest of the participants can only watch and have no impact on the game ….  

[El2aZeR]

1 minute ago, Hundigo said:

So Ranked battle's shall be a round to see who's the best CV player in the game and all the rest of the participants can only watch and have no impact on the game ….  

 

I've grown tired of ranked a long time ago, so don't worry, I won't participate. 

[Maihon]

CV Suggestion.

 

The game currently represents an era without combat data systems so that to fire at a target a ship must acquire that target either visually or using radar or hydrosearch consumables.

 

Targets can also be acquired from friendly ship visibility and CV launched aircraft.

 

CV launched aircraft currently have:

 

(1) Fast transit time to and from the area of interest.

(2) Relatively long duration in the area of interest.

(3) With care a relatively high degree of safety when over the area of interest.

(4) A pretty much unrivalled scouting / spotting ability over the area of interest that enables every ship within range to shoot at any revealed target they have line of sight on.

(5) Should they choose those same aircraft can attack and either do significant damage themselves or cause significant damage to be done i.e. by forcing the exposure of broadside as a result of their own attack.

(6) Quick squadron turnaround = quick rinse and repeat of (1) to (5) above.

 

The CV launched aircraft that perform the above currently comprise three types; bomber, torpedo and rocket.

 

All of these are combat aircraft crewed by maybe 1 – 3 people (?) and with equipment suitable to their combat role. Their primary task as carrier borne combat aircraft is to get out to their target, unload on it then get back as quickly as possible to rearm, refuel and return. Their secondary role might be to report type, course, speed, approximate position of further targets for subsequent follow-up.

 

I submit that generally they would not have:

(a) The time, crew or equipment to provide ongoing, second by second reporting of the course speed and position of multiple targets so that ships that would otherwise be unaware of those targets could fire on them.

(b) Identify salvos fired by individual friendly ships, report their fall and provide corrections for those salvos again all on an ongoing basis.

And complete their primary task.

 

I also submit that the combination of (1) thro (6) above is what leads to the perception that CV’s are overpowered in the game.

 

Therefore a possible solution maybe to remove the full spotting / scouting ability from all combat aircraft, they report their observations of enemy ships but continue with their primary combat mission i.e. what they see appears only on the minimap for every other ship on the team except the CV that owns those planes.

 

Invest the full spotting / scouting ability in a Recon Squadron launched from the CV, this squadron could be slower but with longer duration, fly higher but have less vulnerability, and have self protection armament only.

 

The result of this would be that the CV was either in Recon mode or in Attack mode.

If in Recon Mode then targets revealed by the Recon Squadron can be fired at by friendly ships in range with line of sight as normal, but cannot be attacked by the CV's Recon Sqdn.

If in Attack Mode then other friendly ships would rely on acquiring their target visually, using hydro or radar or by friendly surface ship spotting. Any info gathered by the CV’s combat squadrons would then only on the minimap.

[xxNihilanxx]

1 hour ago, L0V3_and_PE4CE said:

Blobbing is impact created by the CV.

 

 

And so enjoyable, to boot. The most fun I've had since I smashed my collarbone.

[Gl0cK_17]

2 hours ago, Sunleader said:

 

1.

No there is not.

Hiding in the Back so your Team in front gets Massacred might make you survive.

But its not Counterplay.

2.

CVs dont pay any Price.

They resupply Aircraft without Limit.

In the old System this might have worked.

Because the CV has very limited Aircraft and each Aircraft less in the Air at once greatly decreased its ability to compete with the Enemy CV.

But after Rework.

Where you can lose more Bombers than your CV could carry before. And where you only got one Squadron under Control.

Losses make nearly no Difference.

3.

Except thats bullcrab.

Someone has to be on the outer side of the Blob.

And except BBs nobody has the Range to actually Fight from inside the Blob.

So a Blob is entirely useless.

Give the bombers limited fuel. balance it in such a way, that if a cv wants to use  all his strike groups from a squadron. he will have to be pretty close to the action. 
this way he also has a chance to be spotted and wiped out, and needs to play positions. 
In short make it needed for the carrier to not just autopilot in rev to the backline/hide behind the Island closest to the spawnpoint.

that is the main issue, its a class that does not have to risk a thing to ruin someone else his game. Change that aspect and maybe people will see it more of a fair fight.

[Operation_Crossroads_1]

3 hours ago, B051LjKo said:

Just played a game in Kagero

 

Not bad for a potato... Time for your blob attack...

 

 

Top tier DD, against a bottom tier CV, and the CV has a PR in that ship of 46.

 

How well do you think you would've done bottom tier against top tier CV with 3,000+ PR or indeed any CV with a PR of 1,000 or more?

[Operation_Crossroads_1]

50 minutes ago, Operation_Crossroads_1 said:

 

Top tier DD, against a bottom tier CV, and the CV has a PR in that ship of 46.

 

How well do you think you would've done bottom tier against top tier CV with 3,000+ PR or indeed any CV with a PR of 1,000 or more?

 

And here's the difference between a potato and a skilled player who knows what's going on:

• the potato sees big dmg/xp numbers and thinks he's a good player and has done well'
• the skilled player sees:

1. a single novice red CV player who can't reliably strike DD and spends his time spamming low value damage on BB;
2. the presence of CV of any ability (or even absent) causing the red team to "blob";
3. said blob being a perfect target for 12 km torpedo spam from a TRB equiped unopposed DD;
4. skill free DD player picks up big numbers and thinks he's now super-unicum.

[Operation_Crossroads_1]

Or perhaps more accurately:

• the poor player looks at dmg/xp;
• the good player looks at WR%.

[Shadeshots]

The sooner this class gets the axe the healthier this game will become. There is not a single change you can do to balance a class that was specifically designed to destroy surface ships at literally no loss and with an endless amount of attacks, and lets not forget the amount of spotting they do aswell.

[159Hunter]

6 hours ago, B051LjKo said:

Well, he asked, and I've played and posted... In the next game I got radared and killed almost instantly. I havent played DDs for a while, but from the few games today, radar seems to be a much bigger problem the CVs... At least in Kagero... I can hide, smoke, dodge... When radared, I cant do anything,and am to slow to run away, so that means basically dance at the 10 km range

The fact that you think radar is a bigger issue than CVs for a DD proves you don't know how to play DD. Playing around radar actually relies a lot on DD skillfull positioning, map knowledge and minimap reading.

Also claiming that Kagero is too slow to evade radar, then please explain me how your slow DD compares to planes doing 3 times your speed?

[Sunleader]

29 minutes ago, 159Hunter said:

The fact that you think radar is a bigger issue than CVs for a DD proves you don't know how to play DD. Playing around radar actually relies a lot on DD skillfull positioning, map knowledge and minimap reading.

Also claiming that Kagero is too slow to evade radar, then please explain me how your slow DD compares to planes doing 3 times your speed?

 

Well.

To begin with I will use his Permission to Comment on his Stats here.

Since he Declared that he is fine with me Talking about his Stats it should be Allowed I hope.

 

Checking his Detailed Match History.

He doesnt seem to really Practice what he Preaches there.

And his Playstyle actually makes Radar a much bigger Danger.

 

Hes got pretty low Damage with about 20-30k per Match.

But a Decent Fragrate. And an Abyssmal Survival Chance. (As well as Abysmal Winrate of 30%)

 

Judging from his Stats with his extremely high Death Rate. And especially Early Death Rate.

He seems to be effectively Suicide Bombing Enemy Ships.

His Strategy is likely to Aggressively Push forward before being Scouted to then Torp the Enemy Fleet. And Immediately Smoking upon Detection to hopefully get a Second Wave of Torps out and get some Shooting done before he is Killed due to being so far out in Enemy Territory that he cannot hope to Escape.

 

This way of course Enemy Cruisers are a Bigger Danger.

Especially when he gets into T10 Battles with Radar Cruisers available to most Players.

 

 

His BB Stats are not really better.

He did Manage some Good Matches with his Low Tier BBs on T6 and T7 Matches.

But on T8 and T9 he pretty much got Devastated without any real Contribution to his Team at all.

 

And his Stats here are again easy to Read.

He got Low Damage, Low Frags and very few Aircraft Shot down.

So he likely tried to Stay at the Rear of an AA Blob and thus did not really manage to get any Solid Hits on Enemy Ships.

 

The Best thing of all.

He had actually 2 very Good Games with his Jean Bart.

Where he pretty much had more than Three Times better Results than in any of his other BB games.

But since it Lists that he Did not Shoot a Single Aircraft Down in these 2 Matches.

These 2 Games where Basicly Games where there was no CVs in them :P

 

 

You got to Give him some Credit Tough.

At least he is Actually Trying to make a Point on this and tries to test out the stuff he said would work against CVs.

He got over 30 Matches done in DDs and BBs by now.

With pretty little Success especially when T8 and T10 Carriers got Involved.

 

 

Question is only if he will have the Ballz to Admit him being Wrong about CVs not being OP and there being Countergameplay against CVs.

Realizing that his Suggestions on Dealing with CVs as a Surface Ship are neither Realistic or Effective.

[Afghanicus]

I just finished playing a game... I was playing Myoko (tier 7) and there was a Shokaku (tier 8) on the enemy line. He approached the first time, threw some HE shells and took more than half of my HP. On ONE hit. Made a turn, hit another time and sunk me.

 

Very balanced and fun to play. NOT.

[Asakka]

5 minutes ago, Palubarac said:

 Shokaku

 

5 minutes ago, Palubarac said:

HE shells

 

Rockets ?

[KillStealBoss]

Just now, Palubarac said:

I just finished playing a game... I was playing Myoko (tier 7) and there was a Shokaku (tier 8) on the enemy line. He approached the first time, threw some HE shells and took more than half of my HP. On ONE hit. Made a turn, hit another time and sunk me.

 

Very balanced and fun to play. NOT.

First of all those were rockets not HE shells (lol) second, a Shokaku can’t take 20k dmg rocket attack in one attack (3 planes) with 9 rockets. For Midway Tiny Tims it’s hard to do that. Maybe you mean from one squadron. Or you mean AP bombs and thats another sorry cause you get citadeled in a Mogami. Enterprise can in fact one shot a stock 35k hp Mogami from 3 plane attack (6 bombs) if he gets lucky enough to make them all pen the citadel. 

[KillStealBoss]

11 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

 

I've grown tired of ranked a long time ago, so don't worry, I won't participate. 

Your choice. Though I won’t mind some extra steel. For Bourgone or something else that will be released after December.

[LemonadeWarriorITA]

Bug report:

Fighter consumable is useless. Launched in time, still got bombed to crap. Please fix.

[Bmsrt]

48 minutes ago, Asakka said:

 

 

Rockets ?

From the Dmg its more sound like AP bomb citadles.

[Afghanicus]

Alright, whatever it was... It was the beginning of the battle, I was at full HP. Not one plane but one squadron. More than half HP gone in one hit. A minute later sunk.

 

I play less and less since the CVs started taking over. Most of the battles are with 2 CVs which crap the hell out of you before you even see any enemy ship.

[Asakka]

19 minutes ago, Bmsrt said:

From the Dmg its more sound like AP bomb citadles.

I thought so too, but he said HE shells and rockets atleast looks a bit like HE shells and not AP bombs 

[QuickAndDirtyOne]

12 hours ago, Maihon said:

I submit that generally they would not have:

(a) The time, crew or equipment to provide ongoing, second by second reporting of the course speed and position of multiple targets so that ships that would otherwise be unaware of those targets could fire on them. 

(b) Identify salvos fired by individual friendly ships, report their fall and provide corrections for those salvos again all on an ongoing basis.

That would help the game a lot getting the spotting meta back close to what dds have been knowing. And it wouldn't be hurting the CV player.

Remove the combat planes ability to spot for their team, make them just spot for themselfs and their teams minimap.

 

 

12 hours ago, Maihon said:

Invest the full spotting / scouting ability in a Recon Squadron launched from the CV, this squadron could be slower but with longer duration, fly higher but have less vulnerability, and have self protection armament only.

Yes.

Add a spotter plane squadron. This should not only provide full spotting  and could be balanced around it's speed and healthpool but it should give the CV something to do, like having an "Attack" reticule that while active reduces the dispersion of ships firing a targets kept inside the reticul...While this "Attack run" is active regular spotting pauses and only the reduced area of the "artilleriy assistance zone" is shared with the team.

 

Also I would even add a mechanic to remove all of the combat planes spotting capabilities...even for the pilots in the planes.

As submarines have different depths planes should have different heights.

As Submarines in different depths trade active spoting, passive spoting, attack capaility, security against each other, Combat planes should do the same!

Combat planes on hight altitudes should be save from Short + medium range AA but should not be able to spot anything on the sea but their own team. Recon planes fly here and can actually do spotting but no artillery support.

Combat planes on standard altitude only spot for the pilots and for the minimap of the team, they get full damage from all AA.

Combat planes on Attack altitude take less AA damage and have a reduced view range on sealevel targets, not directly ahead.

 

Also i think It would help to Change the AA ! It should be  an Active weapon for ships with longrange AA.

It should be possible to place a box shaped killzone on the map the "Flakbox"

The ships flak then aims into that box...so it would take some time until "aim" is established and the box is ready.

Once the flakbox is established, the moment planes cross it Flak opens fire and it' causes real damage... no dodging except of speeding out of the flakbox.

So the flak works like a "mine" placed in airspace.

[Asakka]

5 minutes ago, Palubarac said:

Alright, whatever it was... It was the beginning of the battle, I was at full HP. Not one plane but one squadron. More than half HP gone in one hit. A minute later sunk.

 

I play less and less since the CVs started taking over. Most of the battles are with 2 CVs which crap the hell out of you before you even see any enemy ship.

This could have been 2 BB salvos and it would be the same in the end.