CV Rework Discussion

[Hundigo]

You don't have to look far for evidence. 

 

There was a post already here that the best games he received where the ones that no CV was involved in that game. 

Everyone can ofcourse debat that but …..    There's some small evidence provided by WG self 

 

You've checked the latest news flashes out from WG ? They have a new with the title ; "best of 3"  for DD, cruiser and BB. In each of these games, there's was not even a single CV involved in that game 

[Sunleader]

43 minutes ago, B051LjKo said:

Well same goes for the CVs, in order to do really good damage, they need to be close. If they are border hugging, the damage output will be less than mediocre.

 

Not really, drop of torps from 12K is not considered close. And in 1 on 1 enviroment, they can attack from point blank (6-7Km) without being deteckted by the BBs...

 

Eeeeerm, are we playing the same game. In WOWS that I play, BBs have no issues with reliably hitting enemies at 20 km range. With no CVs ingame, a BB can bow tank, for the most of the game, with no means of punishing him.

So your suggestion is to further decrease Midway torps to what, 500 dmg per hit?

Maybe your Kaga is driven that way.. Most of the good players are within the range of the enemy most of the time, hiding, and constantly maneuvering to avoid detection and mitigate damage,

 

1.

Thats Bullcrab.

A CV has Unlimited Range and can Cross most Maps in less than 1 Minute.

Try Playing something else than CV. Than maybe you get a feeling about what Range and more Importand what Balance is.

2.

On 12k Your Chance to Hit is Practically Zero unless the Enemy is a Noob which Drives in a Straight Line for the next 2 Minutes.

Not that I am surprised that someone who never actually Plays anything but CVs does not know how to Play DD.

3.

Again Bullcrab. Most BBs will not actually Hit much on 20km Distance. And even if they Hit its usually not really Hits that Do any Serious Damage.

Albeit again. Someone who never Plays anything but CVs would likely not really know that.

I am also not Surprised that you as someone never actually Playing anything except CVs would not know how Bow Tanking works. And thus Expects it to be some Magic Trick.

Small Education Hour.

Bow Tanking in a BB Prevents Citadel Hits given you have enough Armor and your not Facing a BB with Guns that Overmatch that Armor.

Any Skilled Enemy will thus change to HE or Simply Pump AP into your Superstructure depending on his own Shells Affinity. (Some Nations got better HE or AP than others)

Thus easily causing large amounts of Damage even to a Bow tanking BB.

 

 

And well Mate.

Currently a Midway for each Torpedo Squadron.

Has 3x3 Bombers each with 2 Torpedos.

Each Torpedo has 4200 Potential Damage.

Assuming your Hitting an BB with absurdly Good Torp Protection into the Bulge Armor.

You thus do 2k Damage per Torp.

 

6 Torps x 3 Attack Runs x2k Damage.

Means that One Squadron of the Midway has a Potential Damage of 12k per Throw and thus 36k Total against a Super Armored BB.

Against most Targets for example to the Yamato the Torp Protection is of course not that Strong. Thus usually having 15-20k Damage on one Throw.

Putting the Damage that 1 Squadron can do against a Yamato somewhere between 40-60k

Pretty Sick when a CV is capable of pretty much Sinking the Biggest Ship in the Game that easily without ever actually being in any Danger of being Hit itself.

 

 

You could Easily Half that.

And despite that the Midway would still be Pretty Damn Overpowered and Capable of Sinking 2 Yamatos without Receiving a Single HP of Damage.

Of course. Explaining this to you is really not worth the Time.

Because you only Play CV and thus have no actual Idea of how other Classes are Played.

Only Question is.

Do you really not Realize how much other Classes are Suffering from the currently absurdly overpowered CVs.

Or do on Purpose Ignore it because as someone who is only always Playing CVs you dont want to lose the currently ridiculously Overpowered Advantages of your Favorite Class.

 

 

 

 

[niclasknig]

24 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

200% agreed. 

 

and i guess smoke would be nice as well!

[DFens_666]

25 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

200% agreed. 

 

If planes cant spot anymore, maybe CV hull can be stealth too

*casually driving with your DD* BOOM -> Die Hard ram by CV

[Yosha_AtaIante]

Vor 24 Minuten, DFens_666 sagte:

 

If planes cant spot anymore, maybe CV hull can be stealth too

*casually driving with your DD* BOOM -> Die Hard ram by CV

I remember pushing with my t5 Zuiho pre rework, 7,1km concealment, basically a DD with flying Torpedos

[El2aZeR]

6 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

You could Easily Half that.

 

Nah, Midway TBs have atrocious handling and are for the most part completely useless. Even hitting 2 torps on BBs becomes a challenge if said BB is moving and dodging. A typical Midway game consists of me using TBs exactly 0 times.

Now, Enterprise TBs on the other hand.....

Spoiler

 

Observe:

9:18 - vs Musashi

12:35 - vs Conq

 

As a bonus, glorious "no attack" bug at 4:17. Filthy DD scum survives a few dozen seconds longer because of that.

 

#balans 

 

Just now, niclasknig said:

and i guess smoke would be nice as well!

 

Why stop there?

Imo air radar would be a perfectly fine and balans consumable to have. 

[B051LjKo]

29 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

 

1.

Thats Bullcrab.

A CV has Unlimited Range and can Cross most Maps in less than 1 Minute.

Correct, with an average round duration of 15ish minutes, that gives you 15 attacks max, you will not do much for the team if for the most of the time you just fly around, coming close and cutting the flight time to 30 seconds doubles the number of attacks.

29 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

Try Playing something else than CV. Than maybe you get a feeling about what Range and more Importand what Balance is.

2.

Well, I do, from time to time, believe it or not...

29 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

On 12k Your Chance to Hit is Practically Zero unless the Enemy is a Noob which Drives in a Straight Line for the next 2 Minutes.

Not that I am surprised that someone who never actually Plays anything but CVs does not know how to Play DD.

Not really, it works well for area denial and choke points.

29 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

3.

Again Bullcrab. Most BBs will not actually Hit much on 20km Distance.

 

LoL, again, I am not sure what game are you playing, but only German BBs have issues at that range, all other will land consistently, not every shell, but will land...

29 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

And even if they Hit its usually not really Hits that Do any Serious Damage.

Citadels are total RNG so... yes they do happen...

29 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

Albeit again. Someone who never Plays anything but CVs would likely not really know that.

I am also not Surprised that you as someone never actually Playing anything except CVs would not know how Bow Tanking works. And thus Expects it to be some Magic Trick.

Small Education Hour.

Bow Tanking in a BB Prevents Citadel Hits given you have enough Armor and your not Facing a BB with Guns that Overmatch that Armor.

Any Skilled Enemy will thus change to HE or Simply Pump AP into your Superstructure depending on his own Shells Affinity. (Some Nations got better HE or AP than others)

Thus easily causing large amounts of Damage even to a Bow tanking BB.

So your theory is that bow tanking is really very inefficient, and the people are practicing it due to its inefficiency?

29 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

 

And well Mate.

Currently a Midway for each Torpedo Squadron.

Has 3x3 Bombers each with 2 Torpedos.

Each Torpedo has 4200 Potential Damage.

Assuming your Hitting an BB with absurdly Good Torp Protection into the Bulge Armor.

You thus do 2k Damage per Torp.

 

6 Torps x 3 Attack Runs x2k Damage.

Means that One Squadron of the Midway has a Potential Damage of 12k per Throw and thus 36k Total against a Super Armored BB.

Against most Targets for example to the Yamato the Torp Protection is of course not that Strong. Thus usually having 15-20k Damage on one Throw.

Putting the Damage that 1 Squadron can do against a Yamato somewhere between 40-60k

Pretty Sick when a CV is capable of pretty much Sinking the Biggest Ship in the Game that easily without ever actually being in any Danger of being Hit itself.

Please show me a 20K torpedo salve of Midway. Midway torps are horrible, pathetic damage, very slow, horrible aim time. Chances of landing all six against a maneuvering opponent are  laughable. 

 

29 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

Do you really not Realize how much other Classes are Suffering from the currently absurdly overpowered CVs.

But they are not. I do not see it that way, not in the same tier matchmaking. +/- 2 sucks, I fully agree. When Saipan starts to harass Tier 6 Battleships, that is just horrible experience for them, I agree. Same goes for Tier X carriers against Tier 8 vessels. But other than that, it is really fine. I dislike 2 carrier games, even when in the carrier (way to many planes out there), so in a single CV same tier game, that is really good. And CVs should have the biggest damage output, as they were the strongest, and most expensive vessels ever built. 

 

[B051LjKo]

6 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

Observe:

9:18 - vs Musashi

_____

A total of 25K damge against an isolated stationary Tier 9 BB with no AA. 25K of DMG, what is wrong with that?

 

 

6 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

12:35 - vs Conq

Poor gameplay by the Conqueror. If he turned in on the first run, what he should have done do, and closed the arming distance, he would receive 0 damage. Same goes for second and third run. After the first flop, you would be forced to drop from further, giving him chance to dodge at least a few torps. It is a L2P issue by Conquerer in this case. No to mentioned he never should have allowed you.

[Ninja_Geek]

The cvs needed some targets i guess. And the matchmaking is perfect for a T6 ship. Actualy no ship on the map had any chance against cvs. And add a storm so u cant see anything but the planes coming. Real fun wargaming, real fun. This is the problem. Too much power for cvs.

[El2aZeR]

1 minute ago, B051LjKo said:

25K of DMG, what is wrong with that?

 

2 citadel hits worth of damage every 1:30 min against which there is no counterplay doesn't strike you as a bit too high?

 

3 minutes ago, B051LjKo said:

If he turned in on the first run, what he should have done do, and closed the arming distance, he would receive 0 damage.

 

Implying I'd be dumb enough to not simply readjust and crossdrop anyway.

The outcome of the situation lies entirely in my hands. Conq has nothing to say in it.

[Yosha_AtaIante]

Vor 4 Minuten, El2aZeR sagte:

Implying I'd be dumb enough to not simply readjust and crossdrop anyway.

The outcome of the situation lies entirely in my hands. Conq has nothing to say in it

This is true for all attacks the CV uses against you.

[Hundigo]

23 minutes ago, L0V3_and_PE4CE said:

This is true for all attacks the CV uses against you.

So you finally agree that CV's doesn't have any counterattacks against them and that the other players can't use their skill to avoid an attack from a CV ?

 

Because it are just these facts that upset the playerbase on general. No matter what they do, they simply can't counter in anyway a CV attack on them. 

 

Ship upgrade (AA build ) isn't sufficient, captains skills , not worthy to invest in AA upgrades , and using skills and experience in the game against other players (opponents) on general, is ruined by the actions of the CV's in the game. Yes you can kill planes with it, but it doesn't avoid serious attacks on you anyway 

 

Not to mention the concealment and smoke for DD players ….     And we can go on with that list …. again …..  

 

And WG self can't see it at all, for them all is fine, ….. pffff, they have already 6 months data … and they are still not able to see it. And even the players gamerecords here in this topic alone that provides the necessary data on what (negative) influence the CV has on the general gameplay. 

[Sunleader]

15 minutes ago, B051LjKo said:

Correct, with an average round duration of 15ish minutes, that gives you 15 attacks max, you will not do much for the team if for the most of the time you just fly around, coming close and cutting the flight time to 30 seconds doubles the number of attacks.

Well, I do, from time to time, believe it or not...

Not really, it works well for area denial and choke points.

LoL, again, I am not sure what game are you playing, but only German BBs have issues at that range, all other will land consistently, not every shell, but will land...

Citadels are total RNG so... yes they do happen...

So your theory is that bow tanking is really very inefficient, and the people are practicing it due to its inefficiency?

Please show me a 20K torpedo salve of Midway. Midway torps are horrible, pathetic damage, very slow, horrible aim time. Chances of landing all six against a maneuvering opponent are  laughable. 

 

But they are not. I do not see it that way, not in the same tier matchmaking. +/- 2 sucks, I fully agree. When Saipan starts to harass Tier 6 Battleships, that is just horrible experience for them, I agree. Same goes for Tier X carriers against Tier 8 vessels. But other than that, it is really fine. I dislike 2 carrier games, even when in the carrier (way to many planes out there), so in a single CV same tier game, that is really good. And CVs should have the biggest damage output, as they were the strongest, and most expensive vessels ever built. 

 

 

1.

See Mate thats the thing :)

You dont play anything but CV.

So you dont even Realize how much that is.

Your so used to how OP CVs are that due to your lack of experience in other classes you from the get go counting yourself to be required to carry the Team.

 

A BB in these 15 Minutes has like 30 Salvos.

To dish out the Damage that just one of your Squadron can do.

For the kind of Damage that you are almost Guaranteed in a Single Bombing Run.

A BB has to Citadel land a Multi Citadel Hit on an Enemy.

 

And unlike the CV.

The BB is not Guaranteed to live that long.

 

2.

Funny.

Unlike you.

I am actually Playing Ships that are shot at by other Ships :)

And I am just hit consistently like that.

But wwll.

Maybe Play BBs for 2 weeks.

Then you will read your post again and realize how stupid your statement is.

 

3.

Inefficient ?

Not at all.

It Protects you from being Citadelled :)

But its not a wonder Pill that would give you a Survivability of even 20% of what a CV has :)

You cant just Bow Tank all Match like you claim.

Bow Tanking is something you do in close Range to avoid being Deleted.

 

4.

So is Torp Protection and Maneuverability of German BBs.

And I said 15-20k.

Which is what the Midway in the first video I found on Youtube did to a Yamato.

Not to mention TBs are not even the Strongest cars the Midway has....

 

5.

Mate.

The Problem is you only Play CV.

You cant see anything. Because you have no Comparisson.

As I said above.

Dont Play your CV for 2 Weeks.

And Instead only Play the other Classes.

So you actually get an Idea what kind of Damage is much for a Match and how other Classes are Played.

I have no Doubt that for you as a Pure CV Player is fun right now.

But for all other Classes it is not.

 

 

[B051LjKo]

30 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

2 citadel hits worth of damage every 1:30 min against which there is no counterplay doesn't strike you as a bit too high?

Musashi is a bad example as that is his weakspot, give him AA and it is totally OP at tier 9. His counterplay is to move and stay close to an AA cruiser, that will not prevent you from hitting him, but it will prevent 3 full runs for sure.

30 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

Implying I'd be dumb enough to not simply readjust and crossdrop anyway.

The outcome of the situation lies entirely in my hands. Conq has nothing to say in it.

You can readjust, but that is still 3 torps hits less to begin with, and cross dropping will make you miss a few torps, so from 9 hits, we go down to 2 or 3... That makes a difference. 

[El2aZeR]

2 minutes ago, B051LjKo said:

Musashi is a bad example as that is his weakspot, give him AA and it is totally OP at tier 9. His counterplay is to move and stay close to an AA cruiser, that will not prevent you from hitting him, but it will prevent 3 full runs for sure.

 

Yeah, it's not like I just flew into the AA of 6 ships earlier and still survived for dozens of seconds lol.

 

3 minutes ago, B051LjKo said:

You can readjust, but that is still 3 torps hits less to begin with

 

Again, if he had turned the correct way I wouldn't have dropped close. That's still at least two hits. Every subsequent cross drop is going to be right on target whether he maneuvers or not. So in reality I'll miss 1 torp at best.

Telling me I'll only get 2-3 torp hits lol. What a joke.

[B051LjKo]

8 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

 

1.

See Mate thats the thing :)

You dont play anything but CV.

So you dont even Realize how much that is.

Your so used to how OP CVs are that due to your lack of experience in other classes you from the get go counting yourself to be required to carry the Team.

Not really true, at least a thousand of battles in other classes, recently I do play CVs only, that is correct

8 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

 

A BB in these 15 Minutes has like 30 Salvos.

To dish out the Damage that just one of your Squadron can do.

For the kind of Damage that you are almost Guaranteed in a Single Bombing Run.

A BB has to Citadel land a Multi Citadel Hit on an Enemy.

If you were guaranteed a damage, your average on tier 8 carriers would not be 60K of damage.

8 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

 

And unlike the CV.

The BB is not Guaranteed to live that long.

That is the reason you have up to 6 per side, with CVs it is only one or two.

8 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

 

2.

Funny.

Unlike you.

I am actually Playing Ships that are shot at by other Ships :)

Reality check, CV is a ship.

 

[Yosha_AtaIante]

Vor 14 Minuten, Hundigo sagte:

So you finally agree that CV's doesn't have any counterattacks against them and that the other players can't use their skill to avoid an attack from a CV ?

 

Because it are just these facts that upset the playerbase on general. No matter what they do, they simply can't counter in anyway a CV attack on them. 

 

Ship upgrade (AA build ) isn't sufficient, captains skills , not worthy to invest in AA upgrades , and using skills and experience in the game against other players (opponents) on general, is ruined by the actions of the CV's in the game. Yes you can kill planes with it, but it doesn't avoid serious attacks on you anyway 

 

Not to mention the concealment and smoke for DD players ….     And we can go on with that list …. again …..  

 

And WG self can't see it at all, for them all is fine, ….. pffff, they have already 6 months data … and they are still not able to see it. And even the players gamerecords here in this topic alone that provides the necessary data on what (negative) influence the CV has on the general gameplay. 

There will never be counter play availible against unicum CVs. You will get options that will reduce the strike capability but that's ut.

that is to ensure that even weaker players can do at least something against the best possible AA defense.

 

You are arguing against something you cannot beat and that is WG's vision of CVs.

 

Good luck.

[B051LjKo]

2 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

Again, if he had turned the correct way I wouldn't have dropped close. That's still at least two hits. Every subsequent cross drop is going to be right on target whether he maneuvers or not. So in reality I'll miss 1 torp at best.

Telling me I'll only get 2-3 torp hits lol. What a joke.

I disagree... proper maneuvering, even in BBs can mitigate a lot of damage. 

[El2aZeR]

1 minute ago, B051LjKo said:

I disagree... proper maneuvering, even in BBs can mitigate a lot of damage. 

 

Maybe git gud then.

[GarrusBrutus]

6 minutes ago, B051LjKo said:

I disagree... proper maneuvering, even in BBs can mitigate a lot of damage. 

 

Just dodge! Gave me a good laugh. Thanks. 

[Sunleader]

1 minute ago, B051LjKo said:

I disagree... proper maneuvering, even in BBs can mitigate a lot of damage. 

 

Nope.

Again.

Play other Classes if you want to Argue about such stuff.

 

Most BBs only have Torp Armor on the Armor Belt.

Hits into Bow and Stern thus not only Deal higher Damage but also increase the Risk of Flooding.

 

So your not just not really Mitigating Damage by this.

You are actually risking to be Flooded on the First Drop and thus take vastly more Damage because you cant risk repairing the Flooding while the Squadron is still available for another 2 Attacks...

 

 

Again Pal.

Play other classes for 2 weeks.

Right now all your doing is proving to everyone that you have no idea what your Talking about.

 

[Culiacan_Mexico]

Spotting. 

 

When 0.8.0 was released WG stated that spotting was less, but now...  Sub_Octavian "I can absolutely confirm that in any case, there is new meta, where there IS more spotting overall. We do not consider it a bad thing."

 

[Hundigo]

19 minutes ago, L0V3_and_PE4CE said:

There will never be counter play availible against unicum CVs. You will get options that will reduce the strike capability but that's ut.

that is to ensure that even weaker players can do at least something against the best possible AA defense.

 

You are arguing against something you cannot beat and that is WG's vision of CVs.

 

Good luck.

Fine and we all know that. The fact is we indeed are arguing against WG and their visions of CV's rework. 

 

The  big point is; WG is lacking or absence in the whole conversation / debat. I never saw any answer from them yet here. Tey propably doesn't have any decent argumentations against the players community?  It's actually something you can find also in the sector of Psychologie and what WG is probably using also; "You don't have to give any answers, let the 'patients' figure it out themselves'. 

 

I self doesn't agree with your answer because I can not accept that it would be for the less experienced CV players to have some results. If that would be the case then you would not delete the non-even numbers CV in the tech tree. That give players the option to learn the gamemechanics and the different opponents you are facing in the game as you upgrade your own vessel. But WG did it anyway. And that in combination with the MM that can uptier your game also. As tier 6 in a tier 8 matchmaking or as tier 8 in a tier 10 matchmaking. What doesn't make any sense at all. 

 

You also wrote in another respond that players could also stop playing this game if there not satisfied with the gamemechanics like they are now. And indeed players can do that. But that wouldn't make any sence for WG  if they would been asked to agree with your option. They spend a huge amount on marketing for this game. I already used one of their own newsflashes as an example. But it's not with the CV's problems in mind that WG did it. It's just that they wish to attrack new players and let it come over like it is just competition. They where so smart to use the example's where no CV's are involved. 

 

I'm also a guy with 269 days premium left for the moment, so yes, I'm still in the game for the moment. And I've spend some decent time in it the last weeks , just for testing out any other class to see if there would be one that wouldn't have much influence from CV's. . I didn't find one . But I've payed for it in the thought that the game would continue like I was used for it in the past. But it didn't .   I didn't had premium for around 5 months that I played the game at the start. But yes it could convince me at that moment to invest for 1 year premium . And 3 weeks later WG made a drastic change in the gamemechanics that I was also already a period absence of the game. Not to mention the premium ships I bought with the knowledge of the game before this huge change.

 

You describe that it are only a small amount of players that complains ? Really ? And CV's are only for the moment in 'random' battle's. They come also to co-op, ranked, and scenario's. WG likes that , but the playerbase not at all. So ones implented over the other gameoptions, you shall see a higher amount of players that would stop playing.

And stop playing is also stop paying. What do you really think ? That I shall buy again any DD in the game ? That I shall buy again 'premium'  ? Too see how WG is ruin the game ?  

 

You tell me that I'm arguing against WG what I can not beat .  I challenge you, with your posts that players has to quit the game because they are not happy with all the changes, convince WG for me that they would agree with you that players has to quit the game 

 

 

[DFens_666]

2 minutes ago, Culiacan_Mexico said:

Spotting. 

 

When 0.8.0 was released WG stated that spotting was less, but now...  Sub_Octavian "I can absolutely confirm that in any case, there is new meta, where there IS more spotting overall. We do not consider it a bad thing."

 

Makes sense if everything but the 4 CVs always dies

[Yosha_AtaIante]

Vor 15 Minuten, Hundigo sagte:

You tell me that I'm arguing against WG what I can not beat .  I challenge you, with your posts that players has to quit the game because they are not happy with all the changes, convince WG for me that they would agree with you that players has to quit the game 

No, i want CVs to stay. I will not convince anyone. I believe WG will do what they can until they are satisfied with the performance of CVs.

I'm perfectly fine with any tweaks because i will always find a way to effecticely play my favorite shipclass.

And i will not stop suggesting towards toxic crybabies to stop playing.

Because poisoning the well because you are dissatisfied with your food is never the right solution.

What will get fixed is the poisoned well and the reason why it is and not the food that you don't like.