CV Rework Discussion

[philjd]

17 minutes ago, Operation_Crossroads_1 said:

 

I could be wrong, but my understanding is that you only need that once you get up to jet speeds, with piston engine aircraft they're slow enough that they can take off and land without assistance.

Arrestor hooks have been part of CV aircraft design long before jets were viable (eg the original seafire's test back in 1939).

 

The first use of a arrestor hook was way way back 1911....! But the 'modern' system that we usually consider was designed and tested in 1931 (on HMS Courageous).

 

[KillStealBoss]

1 hour ago, El2aZeR said:

Well , Yuro noticed.

 

Now she's gonna get nerfed. T_T

 

 

No.

Well I had a hilarious game on Enterprise yesterday, I was going with my TB to torp Colorado and suddenly I spotted an almost full hp Lightning. I said "let's harass him a bit" . I dropped once a he got 2 torps. Second attempt and another 2 torps. Dead xD

I was loling in chat and got a chatban in a minute after that 

[Teekesselchen]

Timeline of a Yamato who spawned on a flank without sufficient AA. No counterplay available for him. CVs are busted.

 

The upcoming changes may prolong his life for 1-2 minutes but that's all. He would still get wrecked no matter what he does. He was on a flank with a Shima, Lightning and Zao - absolutely no way for them to defend against Audacious.

(Note that I didn't track strikes 6 and 7 since I was focussing those on his allies on A and only hit the Yamato with the last remaining attack each. He could have died even faster if I had wanted to.)

[El2aZeR]

46 minutes ago, Teekesselchen said:

CVs are busted.

 

Funny how you still say that RTS CVs were worse when your very example proves you deal more damage in the same time span while being a far more oppressive presence.

[Teekesselchen]

8 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

Funny how you still say that RTS CVs were worse when your very example proves you deal more damage in the same time span while being a far more oppressive presence.

 

They're both busted. Also this would not have taken any longer with RTS CVs. They would have finished the job in 1-2 waves while also permaspotting the rest of the map with fighters.

[Yosha_AtaIante]

But 7 minutes to kill one yamato is still to much.

Audacious.... bwahhh....

... Midway DBs.. 22k alpha stern 1 fire/dcp, Stern again 15k alpha 1 fire.3rd strike bow, 15k alpha 1 fire. In 2 minutes it's 60k+ damage on an unsaturated Yamato...

Follow up with next DB wave unsaturated midship superstructure 20k alpha 1 fire, dcp, second strike 10k alpha 1 perma fire = dead.

 

 

[El2aZeR]

9 minutes ago, Teekesselchen said:

They would have finished the job in 1-2 waves

 

Killing a Yama in a single wave was outright impossible in RTS CVs (barring detonations), especially after the recent flooding change, so that's 2 strikes at least taking about 3-4 minutes each. A longer timespan than what you would have needed in a sub-par attack platform. Midway or even Enterprise could've finished that Yamato way earlier.

 

9 minutes ago, Teekesselchen said:

while also permaspotting the rest of the map with fighters.

 

Assuming fighters were available and not needed to deny enemy strikes. And assuming the enemy wasn't denying yours.

[KillStealBoss]

17 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

Killing a Yama in a single wave was outright impossible in RTS CVs (barring detonations), especially after the recent flooding change, so that's 2 strikes at least taking about 3-4 minutes each. A longer timespan than what you would have needed in a sub-par attack platform. Midway or even Enterprise could've finished that Yamato way earlier.

 

 

Assuming fighters were available and not needed to deny enemy strikes. And assuming the enemy wasn't denying yours.

Well flooding was changed after RTS was gone.On RTS Haku could do this 1st attack fire from bombs, using DC and then multiple torps , 2 floods and Yama was gone.

[El2aZeR]

41 minutes ago, MacArthur92 said:

Well flooding was changed after RTS was gone.

 

Flooding was likely going to change anyway.

 

Regardless lets examine your scenario. You press your 2 DBs in and are lucky enough to get multiple fires so that the Yama DCPs instantly. Alpha strike of such a DB attack was typically around 7k damage. Next you press in your TBs in hopes of getting a flooding (which even with all 12 TBs hitting was fairly unlikely). Yamato downs 3 on approach, which leaves you with 9 torps. A RTS Haku torp deals ~8,6k alpha strike. About 5 hit bow/stern, but only 2 will deal full damage due to damage saturation, reducing the remaining 3 to half their damage. That means you have 2 torps which will deal 8,6k alpha strike while the rest deal 4,3k, giving you a total TB damage of ~47k damage. Added with the bomb damage before that's 54k. You get lucky and get a flooding (it was impossible to get more than one on a ship btw), at this time Yamato DCP will be at about 60 seconds cd. In that time a Yama would lose ~650HP per second, giving us ~39k flooding damage. So that's a total of ~93k damage.

And you might say "oh, that's very close to Yama max HP, it's totally possible!" Well yes, but actually no. That'd be assuming the Yama is too stupid to use his heal.

 

So that necessitates a second strike guaranteed. And this is the optimal scenario, we're assuming no fighter interference, no AA interference (Zao with DFAA would likely reduce your torp alpha to almost nothing or prevent you from getting a fire in the first place, denying your bait and switch), that you even get multiple fires to force DCP, that you hit all your torps, that the Yama isn't full AA (which to be fair was extremely unlikely) and that you get a flooding.

Out of all of these ifs, only whether you get multiple floodings or not remains.

[Besserwisser3000]

Vor 6 Stunden, GTB1964 sagte:

CV planes can fly anywhere on the map pretty fast and finish off any enemy ships with next to no health left. Something a surface ship simply cannot do. So I wouldn't read too much in the fact CV has a bigger average kill ratio. CV players will look out for any ships very low on health that they can finish off to help the team win.

The average damage of CVs does not support this. They don't just finish, they deal the damage and kill ships

[Besserwisser3000]

Vor 5 Stunden, AirSupremacy sagte:

CV`s have a low death rate as they stay back on the map, their high survival % is factored in,

which is reflected in the kill/death ratio statistics.

 

It was written in this thread that the numbers on wows-number would reflect the entire game development time, which is not correct:

> Audacious is a new CV

> The website lists the old Haku and Midway separate as (<30.01.2019 ).

The values since patch 0.8.0, which happened in this year ( 2019 ) are stated on wows-numbers.com as "Midway", "Hakuryu".

People playing the old RTS version before patch 0.8.0 achieved an average of around 96K.

Midway & Haku currently have a combined average of around 81K - Which may drop lower with the upcoming speed-boost reduction of airplanes. The new Audacious CV nearly reaches the old pre-rework RTS system average damage values with 93K , to consider is that there are battleships which average higher than this CV`s average damage.

 

RTS average damage values, up till patch 0.8.0

 

 

https://wows-numbers.com/ship/4277122768,Hakuryu-30-01-2019-/

https://wows-numbers.com/ship/4279220208,Midway-30-01-2019-/

 

Current average CV values since patch 0.8.0 ( 2019 ) below, further at the bottom are battleship average damage stats.

 

 

The numbers of wows-numbers do reflect they entire game development. That's why the old and new CVs are split. But rework CVs are so new that the learning curve is still big, causing the weekly stats to deviate a lot from the overall stats.

 

Is that concept too hard for you, or are you just trying to deflect?

[KillStealBoss]

13 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

Flooding was likely going to change anyway.

 

Regardless lets examine your scenario. You press your 2 DBs in and are lucky enough to get multiple fires so that the Yama DCPs instantly. Alpha strike of such a DB attack was typically around 7k damage. Next you press in your TBs in hopes of getting a flooding (which even with all 12 TBs hitting was fairly unlikely). Yamato downs 3 on approach, which leaves you with 9 torps. A RTS Haku torp deals ~8,6k alpha strike. About 5 hit bow/stern, but only 2 will deal full damage due to damage saturation, reducing the remaining 3 to half their damage. That means you have 2 torps which will deal 8,6k alpha strike while the rest deal 4,3k, giving you a total TB damage of ~47k damage. Added with the bomb damage before that's 54k. You get lucky and get a flooding (it was impossible to get more than one on a ship btw), at this time Yamato DCP will be at about 60 seconds cd. In that time a Yama would lose ~650HP per second, giving us ~39k flooding damage. So that's a total of ~93k damage.

And you might say "oh, that's very close to Yama max HP, it's totally possible!" Well yes, but actually no. That'd be assuming the Yama is too stupid to use his heal.

 

So that necessitates a second strike guaranteed. And this is the optimal scenario, we're assuming no fighter interference, no AA interference (Zao with DFAA would likely reduce your torp alpha to almost nothing or prevent you from getting a fire in the first place, preventing your bait and switch), that you even get multiple fires to force DCP and that you get a flooding.

Out of all of these what ifs, only whether you get multiple floodings or not remains.

Well I said that because I had such scenario in my Yama. I was on 90k hp and this happened. There were just few seconds for the DCP to reload . Flood killed me. 

[El2aZeR]

6 minutes ago, MacArthur92 said:

There were just few seconds for the DCP to reload

 

Did you use premium DCP?

And honestly, if you knew the Haku hasn't expended his TBs yet, why use DCP in the first place? Flooding was a much greater danger than fire, if you'd have just used your heal to nullify the fire damage you would've been more than fine.

 

Baiting only works if your enemy actually falls for it. The term itself implies a misplay. It's like people saying "you could just bait DFAA". Well duh, if the enemy is dumb enough to misplay his one button mechanic then he should be punished for that.

[Culiacan_Mexico]

11 hours ago, AirSupremacy said:

The average CV T10 damage is around 80K damage if one looks up the data.

If WG would believe that 80K damage os "overpowered", they would immediately start

to rework BB damage for the entire battleship line.

 

You don't understand what makes a ship or ship type OP.

[Culiacan_Mexico]

8 hours ago, L0V3_and_PE4CE said:

...CVs at the moment are op...

Honest questions: are Tier 4 CVs OP and if so why?

[mcboernester]

4 hours ago, Besserwisser3000 said:

But rework CVs are so new that the learning curve is still big

Sorry but what learning curve? Once you get the hang on drop distances you are good 2 go, there's really nothing else to it imho. Got 1 guy in my clan who had yellow / green pr on rts and started the rework from scratch / without PT games. I  gave some advices at how to play / what ammo to choose / where to aim, now he's on his way to unicum stats (actually super unicum on Lex). Aside from me beeing glad for him that he developed so well it also shows how ridicioulus this rework really is. If you cam show me another class where you can start from scratch and become super unicum in <100 games i would be quite surprised ^^

[mcboernester]

13 minutes ago, Culiacan_Mexico said:

Honest questions: are Tier 4 CVs OP and if so why?

eehhhhh...

[Culiacan_Mexico]

12 minutes ago, mcboernester said:

eehhhhh...

					EXP	Damage	Kills
JP	CV	4		Hosho	656	23584	0.59
JP	BB	4		Myogi	638	23671	0.59

 

 

Player Average for Ships [ at 2019/05/18 ]	Two months Ending				EXP	Damage	Kills
US	BB	4		Wyoming	685	31219	0.79
US	CV	4		Langley	652	22906	0.57

 

 

 

Player Average for Ships [ at 2019/05/18 ]	Two months Ending				EXP	Damage	Kills
RN	BB	4		Orion	778	40931	1.12
RN	CV	4		Hermes	649	24009	0.64

 

 

 

I fail to see how these individual CVs are OP, well at least with regards to their stats.

[1MajorKoenig]

8 minutes ago, mcboernester said:

eehhhhh...

 

Top 4 players? Now that is really something!

 

You might be at something great here keep going 

[Guest]

27 minutes ago, Culiacan_Mexico said:

					EXP	Damage	Kills
JP	CV	4		Hosho	656	23584	0.59
JP	BB	4		Myogi	638	23671	0.59

 

 

Player Average for Ships [ at 2019/05/18 ]	Two months Ending				EXP	Damage	Kills
US	BB	4		Wyoming	685	31219	0.79
US	CV	4		Langley	652	22906	0.57

 

 

 

Player Average for Ships [ at 2019/05/18 ]	Two months Ending				EXP	Damage	Kills
RN	BB	4		Orion	778	40931	1.12
RN	CV	4		Hermes	649	24009	0.64

 

 

 

I fail to see how these individual CVs are OP, well at least with regards to their stats.

 

@Wargaming

Nerf this HE abomination Orion already!

[mcboernester]

17 minutes ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

 

Top 4 players? Now that is really something!

 

You might be at something great here keep going 

And around the same average Damage you got on your T8 CVs   Balanced, right? 

[Culiacan_Mexico]

1 minute ago, Alipheese_XV said:

 

@Wargaming

Nerf this HE abomination Orion already!

  WG stated they have many new tools to determine what is or isn't balanced.  Plebeian just don't understand.

 

[1MajorKoenig]

1 minute ago, Alipheese_XV said:

 

@Wargaming

Nerf this HE abomination Orion already!

 

OPrion is sh*** since day one. WG doesn’t give a damn sadly 

 

But yes - comparing a ship to Myogi is a gentle way to call it out 

[1MajorKoenig]

7 minutes ago, mcboernester said:

And around the same average Damage you got on your T8 CVs   Balanced, right? 

 

Yep - the average stats are quite balanced 

[mcboernester]

49 minutes ago, Culiacan_Mexico said:

 

 

I fail to see how these individual CVs are OP, well at least with regards to their stats.

I already showed the reason for that a few times. The bottom tier players actually got worse with the new cv concept because they cannot perform autodrops anymore. As a follow up from that you can find various guys with 10-20k average damage on a tier 10 cv. However good cv players still do their thing, most of the time even with far higher scores than on the rts concept, which shows in the PR. Since the calculation comes mostly from 50% dmg done 30% kills and 20% win you can see that the PR for "the same" values as on rts is far higher now ( for example 3k instead of of 2.2k on old system). 

 

RTS System ( Midway) 

Spoiler

 

 

 

And this within the new 3rd person view

Spoiler