CV Rework Discussion

[Yosha_AtaIante]

Vor 46 Minuten, Culiacan_Mexico sagte:

Is it possible that the differences in experience is showing some CV have too much game influence?

CV get less rewards for plane kills then other ships. DDs get most exp per plane shot down.

 

@Sunleader

You are wrong on the spotting.

Disagree all you like but you are wrong on that one.

[Culiacan_Mexico]

11 minutes ago, Panocek said:

Perhaps. Or WG increased (too much) exp gains when thet nerfed CV in their extra top kek state during Test Servers run in October/November if memory serves me right, as despite cranking 250k+ dmg games, base exp wasn't ridiculously over the top

CV experience was roughly equal to other ships types until 0.8.0

 

Player Average for Shipclasses [ at 2019/02/09 ]
1	BB	Higher Tier	1574
1	CA	Higher Tier	1606
1	CV	Higher Tier	1888
1	DD	Higher Tier	1535
2	BB	Lower Tier	995
2	CA	Lower Tier	894
2	CV	Lower Tier	1126
2	DD	Lower Tier	878
Player Average for Shipclasses [ at 2019/01/19 ]
div	name	class
			exp
1	BB	Higher Tier	1481
1	CA	Higher Tier	1500
1	CV	Higher Tier	1464
1	DD	Higher Tier	1479
2	BB	Lower Tier	1089
2	CA	Lower Tier	838
2	CV	Lower Tier	962
2	DD	Lower Tier	898

[Panocek]

1 minute ago, Culiacan_Mexico said:

CV experience was roughly equal to other ships types until 0.8.0

 

Player Average for Shipclasses [ at 2019/02/09 ]
1	BB	Higher Tier	1574
1	CA	Higher Tier	1606
1	CV	Higher Tier	1888
1	DD	Higher Tier	1535
2	BB	Lower Tier	995
2	CA	Lower Tier	894
2	CV	Lower Tier	1126
2	DD	Lower Tier	878
Player Average for Shipclasses [ at 2019/01/19 ]
div	name	class
			exp
1	BB	Higher Tier	1481
1	CA	Higher Tier	1500
1	CV	Higher Tier	1464
1	DD	Higher Tier	1479
2	BB	Lower Tier	1089
2	CA	Lower Tier	838
2	CV	Lower Tier	962
2	DD	Lower Tier	898

I've said

Quote

during Test Servers run in October/November

Which was entirely different server and I doubt anyone collected that data.

[__RSK__]

I'm a new CV player, started playing them after rework. I have round 7-8k battles in all ships and just over 200 in CV's. By those numbers alone you'd say I'm a noob in CV.

 

In tier 8 CV's  my average dmg is 70-90k depending on nation, being bottom tier drops this number and also having short games, but win rate is solid 60-70%

I do not understand comments that doing damage in CVs is hard, its very easy for me. Especially in British ones, that helped me to unlock Audacious, my first tier 10 CV.

In first game in it, with no modules, no upgrades and captain not retrained i did 200k dmg.

 

I do not consider myself a good CV player, but numbers say otherwise.. can only imagine what can experienced player can do.  This rework/unbalance is for me bringing game to point of no fun.

 

 

[CptMinia]

Hello,

          Thread cleaned up a bit. Can I remind people that we are all players as well as people here and that directed, personal insults as well as stat-shaming is not allowed. In regards to that, if anyone is subject to or sees such behaviour please use the report function to notify us of such behaviour.

 

Regards,

               CptMinia

[AkulaTSR]

Fed up of being dead in a game and having to wait for 10+ mins , in a battle that ends up with everyone dead except the FOUR CV`s 

[cherry2blost]

6 hours ago, Operation_Crossroads_1 said:

The Mighty Jingles:

 

"I've noticed something: all of the great battles that are being recorded and sent into me, they all have one thing in common, no aircraft carriers......."

 

 

 

^^ This...............

[JinxedJedi]

CV's need to be removed from game, they are to OP!

[JinxedJedi]

1 hour ago, __RSK__ said:

I'm a new CV player, started playing them after rework. I have round 7-8k battles in all ships and just over 200 in CV's. By those numbers alone you'd say I'm a noob in CV.

 

In tier 8 CV's  my average dmg is 70-90k depending on nation, being bottom tier drops this number and also having short games, but win rate is solid 60-70%

I do not understand comments that doing damage in CVs is hard, its very easy for me. Especially in British ones, that helped me to unlock Audacious, my first tier 10 CV.

In first game in it, with no modules, no upgrades and captain not retrained i did 200k dmg.

 

I do not consider myself a good CV player, but numbers say otherwise.. can only imagine what can experienced player can do.  This rework/unbalance is for me bringing game to point of no fun.

 

 

Well said, can only agree!! Most players will agree, CV's need to be toned down! The CV rework has failed!!

[Culiacan_Mexico]

20 minutes ago, JinxedJedi said:

CV's need to be removed from game, they are to OP!

Tier 4 CVs are OP?  In what way?

[Pikkozoikum]

1 hour ago, cherry2blost said:

^^ This...............

I was thinking about to send a replay in, where I torp two CVs at the same time with my dd xD, but the torpedos had to much spread and only one torpedo hit each of them :(

[Sunleader]

2 hours ago, L0V3_and_PE4CE said:

CV get less rewards for plane kills then other ships. DDs get most exp per plane shot down.

 

@Sunleader

You are wrong on the spotting.

Disagree all you like but you are wrong on that one.

 

Mind Detailing that a bit ? :)

Last time I looked I didnt have any holes in my Hands. So I am clearly not Jesus and thus do not have a claim to be always right.

 

But just saying I am wrong and then not giving any explanation is rather weak dont ya think ? :)

 

2 hours ago, CptMinia said:

Hello,

          Thread cleaned up a bit. Can I remind people that we are all players as well as people here and that directed, personal insults as well as stat-shaming is not allowed. In regards to that, if anyone is subject to or sees such behaviour please use the report function to notify us of such behaviour.

 

Regards,

               CptMinia

 

Worth it.

No Offense Intended on my side.

But if someone so Blatantly and Boldly Lies right into everyones Face.

Then he Deserves to be called out on it.

I can stand alot. Even that guy which followed me around for several Days only Commenting on me without even mentioning the Topic.

But if there is something that I cant stand at all. Its People which just Straight up Lie into my Face.

 

[Yosha_AtaIante]

Vor 40 Minuten, Sunleader sagte:

Mind Detailing that a bit ? :)

Last time I looked I didnt have any holes in my Hands. So I am clearly not Jesus and thus do not have a claim to be always right.

 

But just saying I am wrong and then not giving any explanation is rather weak dont ya think ? :)

Hey man, no hard feelings but i had this discussion with to many people by now and it's getting to repetetive.

I will maybe explain it to you in a pm tomorrow or something but usually you only spot on porpuse if there is nothing else viable enough to do or you can say for sure that your team will secure the kill otherwise it's absolutely not worth it.

Damage race is very important for the win. You can check the stats of Midway players and see that usually the higher their dmg + killcount is the higher the winrate gets. You can take my stats for reference too if you like. I am currently working on that avg dmg increase and my winrate is rising with it while i try keeping the avg kills as consistent. Matches are getting easier to win since i stopped deliberately spotting for my team.

A more detailed explaination however is needed if you don't have that much CV experience yourself and i am not shaming you here at all please don't get the wrong impression. So if you are really interested i can explain it to you in pms.

[Sunleader]

2 hours ago, L0V3_and_PE4CE said:

Hey man, no hard feelings but i had this discussion with to many people by now and it's getting to repetetive.

I will maybe explain it to you in a pm tomorrow or something but usually you only spot on porpuse if there is nothing else viable enough to do or you can say for sure that your team will secure the kill otherwise it's absolutely not worth it.

Damage race is very important for the win. You can check the stats of Midway players and see that usually the higher their dmg + killcount is the higher the winrate gets. You can take my stats for reference too if you like. I am currently working on that avg dmg increase and my winrate is rising with it while i try keeping the avg kills as consistent. Matches are getting easier to win since i stopped deliberately spotting for my team.

A more detailed explaination however is needed if you don't have that much CV experience yourself and i am not shaming you here at all please don't get the wrong impression. So if you are really interested i can explain it to you in pms.

 

Dont worry about the Shaming Part.

I am a Casual Player.

 

In that case I am also not Interested in further explanation.

As I said before.

My Primary Aim is to have Fun.

So I am not interested in Maximizing my Gamestyle towards a Certain Edge.

 

 

In that case however. I would Disagree Strongly.

You See.

What your Saying might be True. And indeed among the Top 5% of CV Elite Players which Maximize according to the Meta of Efficiency and Winrate.

Spotting might be less Relevant than Systematically causing as much Damage to the Enemy as Possible as fast Possible.

Which likely also means that you constantly Target Enemies that give you the highest Damage Gain etc.

 

But the Top 5% are almost entirely Irrelevant to General Gameplay Importance.

Because 95% of the Game is Casuals like me which will not Maximize Efficiency and for which thus Spotting is in Fact an Importand Aspect to Buff their Winrate.

 

 

Not to Brag about myself not being a Pro.

But did you Forget ?

I am the Type of Player which will basicly Do almost no Damage in a Match.

Because he Doggedly keeps Bombing the Enemy Carrier at the Opposite End of the Map to Kill him :)

 

Might not be the Best Way to Win.

But it Certainly is currently an Incredible Satisfying Experience and is pretty sure to get my Team Cheering. :P

[arcticstorm123]

Followed an old link and got this 404 page, what interests me is that someone at WOWS took the time to develop this picture, and some very submariney references are turning up under the covers of the game.

 

Think you're annoyed at CV's right now?, could soon be the least of your worries! 

 

(tbh I'd welcome subs, would add a bit more variety, new countermeasures etc., people go on about their submerged speed but seeing until WW2 and the invention of the snorkel they did most of their travelling on the surface, something like the Halloween game where you had limited time submerged could make it a nice addition, and would give people ranting about CV's being overpowered something else to obsess about )

 

[Sunleader]

1 hour ago, arcticstorm123 said:

Followed an old link and got this 404 page, what interests me is that someone at WOWS took the time to develop this picture, and some very submariney references are turning up under the covers of the game.

 

Think you're annoyed at CV's right now?, could soon be the least of your worries! 

 

(tbh I'd welcome subs, would add a bit more variety, new countermeasures etc., people go on about their submerged speed but seeing until WW2 and the invention of the snorkel they did most of their travelling on the surface, something like the Halloween game where you had limited time submerged could make it a nice addition, and would give people ranting about CV's being overpowered something else to obsess about )

 

 

I doubt Submarines would be even close as worse as CVs as now.

 

Submarines (especially if they work like the Test Run they did with the Steampunk Event) would need to get close for Torpedo Runs just like DDs.

So unlike Carriers which can Just Bomb you with Impunity from a Safe Distance. And for which there is no Counter and no way to Defend yourself. 

Submarines are something that can in Fact be Countered by Destroyers and Light Cruisers and which you can Defend yourself against by using Hydroacoustic Search etc.

 

During the Event.

Their Dive was also Fairly Limited.

And unless they came up to the Surface their Torpedo Attacks were really Inaccurate.

 

In Effect Submarine Gameplay will likely be Similar to DD Gameplay.

Just that these New DDs are way Slower and in Exchange much more Stealthy.

Having a Dive Option instead of a Smokescreen.

 

 

The current Problem with CVs.

Is that as a CV I can just keep Bombing you. And there is Absolutely Nothing you can do.

Just now. I had a Match where the Enemy had 3 Yamatos.

I was in my T8 Kaga.

Now how much Chance do you think 3 Yamatos have at Preventing me from Bombing them over and over and over and over and over ? :)

Thats right.

Zero.....

They cant do anything about me Bombing them.

Absolutely Nothing.

 

As long as I want to Bomb them.

I will Bomb them.

Again and Again and Again.

 

And they cant do anything about it.

 

For Submarines thats Different.

A Submarine like a DD might use its Ability to get close to me once and do a Strong Attack.

But doing that just like a DD it will effectively be Suiciding as it wont get away afterwards.

 

A Submarine wont be able to just keep Attacking with Impunity like a CV.

So it will be nowhere near as bad as the Current Situation with CVs.

[B051LjKo]

13 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

 

Just now. I had a Match where the Enemy had 3 Yamatos.

I was in my T8 Kaga.

Now how much Chance do you think 3 Yamatos have at Preventing me from Bombing them over and over and over and over and over ? :)

Thats right.

Zero.....

They cant do anything about me Bombing them.

Absolutely Nothing.

 

As long as I want to Bomb them.

I will Bomb them.

Again and Again and Again.

 

And they cant do anything about it.

 

 

Eeeerm, fighter consumable, full aa spec, sector aa, having a friendly aa cruiser close by, this is a team game, a lone yamato should suffer against CVs, especially a tank like yamato that is close to invounrable when bow tanking.

 

On the other hand, what can yamato do against Shima or gering 1 on 1, absoloutly nothing... and that seem to be OK.

[Carleti45]

They are killing the game
It's not that the CVs do a lot of damage, but that they are making unjust war of warships.
In the end, you can only play with one type of boat, with great AA, minotaur.
DDs RIP.
If the CV does not want you to play, you do not play. and I can not do the same with him.

I'm thinking about stopping playing and like me many of my friends.

[arcticstorm123]

1 hour ago, Sunleader said:

 

I doubt Submarines would be even close as worse as CVs as now.

 

Submarines (especially if they work like the Test Run they did with the Steampunk Event) would need to get close for Torpedo Runs just like DDs.

So unlike Carriers which can Just Bomb you with Impunity from a Safe Distance. And for which there is no Counter and no way to Defend yourself. 

Submarines are something that can in Fact be Countered by Destroyers and Light Cruisers and which you can Defend yourself against by using Hydroacoustic Search etc.

 

During the Event.

Their Dive was also Fairly Limited.

And unless they came up to the Surface their Torpedo Attacks were really Inaccurate.

 

In Effect Submarine Gameplay will likely be Similar to DD Gameplay.

Just that these New DDs are way Slower and in Exchange much more Stealthy.

Having a Dive Option instead of a Smokescreen.

 

 

The current Problem with CVs.

Is that as a CV I can just keep Bombing you. And there is Absolutely Nothing you can do.

Just now. I had a Match where the Enemy had 3 Yamatos.

I was in my T8 Kaga.

Now how much Chance do you think 3 Yamatos have at Preventing me from Bombing them over and over and over and over and over ? :)

Thats right.

Zero.....

They cant do anything about me Bombing them.

Absolutely Nothing.

 

As long as I want to Bomb them.

I will Bomb them.

Again and Again and Again.

 

And they cant do anything about it.

 

For Submarines thats Different.

A Submarine like a DD might use its Ability to get close to me once and do a Strong Attack.

But doing that just like a DD it will effectively be Suiciding as it wont get away afterwards.

 

A Submarine wont be able to just keep Attacking with Impunity like a CV.

So it will be nowhere near as bad as the Current Situation with CVs.

Unless there was more than 1 CV in the game you were only hitting them one at a time, for however many attempts per squadron, assuming you suffered no losses at all from AA (unlikely in a Tier X game).

 

How is this different from those Yamato's straying into the field of fire of 1,2 or more CA HE spammers? pretty much the same if you ask me, yeah they can sail away, but how quickly?

 

The Yamato burns nicely.

 

[Glig69]

Fun and engaging play? I think not.  Despite shooting down 63 planes, the 2 premium carriers still had plenty of reserves to carry on sending wave after wave of planes after me, and slowly grind me down ... whilst remaining invulnerable to return fire.  No penalty for losing planes.  Not fun WG, just not fun.

 

 

  

[Sunleader]

1 hour ago, B051LjKo said:

Eeeerm, fighter consumable, full aa spec, sector aa, having a friendly aa cruiser close by, this is a team game, a lone yamato should suffer against CVs, especially a tank like yamato that is close to invounrable when bow tanking.

 

On the other hand, what can yamato do against Shima or gering 1 on 1, absoloutly nothing... and that seem to be OK.

 

They had Fighters out.

I didnt care.

They had AA Cruiser around half of the time.

I didnt care. (I Bomb even AA Cruisers lol)

Cant tell if they had AA Spec. But if thats Mandatory just to Play then thats just more Evidence that CVs are OP.

 

And lone Yamato ?

Since when is 3 Yamatos counting as a lone Yamato ????

 

 

 

And lol.

Yamato can Delete a DD in a Single Salvo if the DD is detected.

And if the DD stays on range you can Evade Torps by simply not constantly driving in a straight line.

 

Try throwing Torps from 8km away instead of 1km like with your Planes.

You.ll notice that its fairly different.

 

 

 

1 minute ago, arcticstorm123 said:

Unless there was more than 1 CV in the game you were only hitting them one at a time, for however many attempts per squadron, assuming you suffered no losses at all from AA (unlikely).

 

How is this different from those Yamato's straying into the field of fire of 1,2 or more CA HE spammers? pretty much the same if you ask me, yeah they can sail away, but how quickly?

 

The Yamato burns nicely.

 

 

There is one really Striking Difference.

An HE Spamming Cruiser can be Deleted in a Single Salvo and if he wants to HE Spam he has to be in Range of the Yamato.

Even if he is in cover he needs someone to Spot who is then in Range etc etc.

 

 

A CV can Torp/Bomb Spam the Yamato without ever being in Range of it.

He needs no Team or anything because he can launch his Aircraft 50km away and then fly to the Yamato.

 

 

 

 

And of course I took losses.

I just dont care lol.

I got 36 Torp Bombers alone.

Even if I lose Half each Attack I can run 6 Waves of Torps before my Starting stock is out.

By that time I likely refilled enough for anothe 2 Waves.

And thats just Torps.

After that I got the same for Dive Bombers.

By the time my DBs are put I got TBs again.

And should i ever manage to really deplete both of these I can still go to my Rocket Launchers which refill so fast that running out of them is a real effort lol.

 

Needless to say.

I can keep losses small if I want. Especially on Torpers.

Cause even against AA Cruiser. If I press F after each drop I will lose like 3-4 Planes.

Meaning I can do this more than 10 times before I even have to Change Squadron lol

[Sidian42]

On 5/17/2019 at 5:56 AM, WarburtonLee said:

What i dont like at all with the rework is that it seems there are no consistancy in shooting down planes. Sometimes i wipe squadrons left and right, and other times i dont shoot down a single plane. Doesnt seem to matter much which ship im playing. One game i shoot down 50 planes in a non-aa specced moskva, next game my Des moines seems to shoot with blanks or something....

Depends on the CVs' skill. In general, your DPS is very consistent, but the plane that receives the damage is chosen at random. However, bad players have more troubles dodging flak bursts, and those can shred entire squadrons within seconds. If you play against a bad CV with your non-AA specced Moskva, you'll get more plane kills compared to playing a good CV with your AA specced Des Moines.

---------------------------------------------

On 5/17/2019 at 7:25 AM, 159Hunter said:

You don't seem to understand that WG wanted to lower the spotting and they didn't. Ergo: rework failed on that part.

 

It didn't fail. Spotting damage by CVs went down with the rework. It just isn't as apparent ingame because CVs were very rare before the rework, and very common now, and of course, the spotting at the start of the match is an issue that will be resolved in 0.8.4 (btw, there also was a delay at the start in the RTS version).

 

---------------------------------------------

On 5/17/2019 at 12:50 PM, Sunleader said:

CVs currently Allow Players to become Good, Very Good or even Unicum very easily.

Thats a Fact.

You can See that Fact from myself as well.

 

It's not a fact. I've seen players doing worse in CVs than in other classes. One of them even complained about the AA being too weak and he said that he has no problems with his t8 RN carrier in t10 matches. I looked up his stats: He had a 42% WR and 28k average damage with it - and CVs were his worst class. 
You might be better with CVs, but that doesn't apply to everyone.

 

18 hours ago, Sunleader said:

There is no Skill Gap on CVs.

My Friend. A Casual Player with the Reaction Speed of a Soft Potato and the Aiming Skills of a 98 Year old Blind Grandma.

Can play a CV and easily rack up large amounts of Damage.

 

CVs require no Skill at all.

 

That's just your bias. Of course there is a skill gap on CVs. And they do require skill. Players who do a lot less damage in a t8 carrier than we both do in t6 carriers are proof of that. And all CV players would have a 49-51% WR if CVs didn't require skill and the skill difference didn't matter, which is not the case.
There is no counterplay like before anymore, playing CV is a damage race now. The better CV will do more damage and a higher chance to take out targets, and thus has a much higher chance to win the game with his team.

 

---------------------------------------------

23 hours ago, Spithas said:

I cannot understand how Wargaming are so completely and utterly incompetent that they need to test a scenario like the first one in that list to see what will happen.... when anyone who has played 30 tier 10 battles can predict the results.

 

The sheer levels of incompetence of this team just knows no limit.

 

Actual statistics and data > some predictions.
A developer team collecting data and statistics in controlled environments is far from incompetent.
 

---------------------------------------------

21 hours ago, Operation_Crossroads_1 said:

The Mighty Jingles:

 

"I've noticed something: all of the great battles that are being recorded and sent into me, they all have one thing in common, no aircraft carriers......."

 

Of course. By having carriers in the match, you have already less potential damage you can do (because the carrier is far in the back and will probably survive). And the CVs' task is to deal a lot of damage, that means other ships get to deal less.
These "great battles" with very high amounts of damage are very unlikely for surface ships if a) there is less to shoot at and b) there is an other player in the same team who also deals a lot of damage.

[Sunleader]

Mate no Offense.

But Winrate is entirely useless as a Measure here.

There is always equal CVs on each Team.

So of course Winrate will not be affected by CVs being overpowered and requiring no Skill.

Because both sides get CVs that require no Skill but are extremely OP.

 

And lol nearly 30k average Damage with a CV when your complete Noob is rather Impressive.

You know what noobs in other Classes do on Average Damage ?

Next to nothing. Cause they get Sunk too fast to really get any Damage out.

 

 

 

Edit.

 

I mean.

I am not allowed to post other Peoples Stats.

So just check my own Stats instead.

 

I am casual Player.

But even I myself am easily and without any effort advancing right into Unicum levels by Playing CV.

 

I mean.

We can of course just say that I am some sort of late blooming prodigy which suddenly awakened his incredible Talents as a WoWs Player.

 

But lets face it.

Reality is just that CVs are so overpowered that even a Random Casual like me which plays maybe 10-20 Battles a week can easily massacre even Pro Players by using an Aircraft Carrier.

[El2aZeR]

1 hour ago, Glig69 said:

Despite shooting down 63 planes, the 2 premium carriers still had plenty of reserves to carry on sending wave after wave of planes after me, and slowly grind me down

 

Out of those 63 aircraft, how many were fighters? Because losing those doesn't have any impact on CV reserves whatsoever.

Besides, Enterprise and Kaga have the highest effective plane reserves out of all CVs in the game. In fact the amount of planes your team shot down is less than the total amount of planes that Enterprise can bring to the field alone (in a realistic scenario Enterprise brings ~190 planes to bare in a 20 min match of which 90 are fighters).

[Sidian42]

1 hour ago, Sunleader said:

Mate no Offense.

But Winrate is entirely useless as a Measure here.

There is always equal CVs on each Team.

So of course Winrate will not be affected by CVs being overpowered and requiring no Skill.
Because both sides get CVs that require no Skill but are extremely OP.

But Winrate IS affected by the skill difference (+ ship quality) for CVs, and it's BECAUSE there's always an equal amount of CVs on each team that skill and skill difference matters.
A no-skill CV will have the same influence on the match as a no-skill BB that's suiciding into the enemy team and also get to 30k damage while doing that.

 

1 hour ago, Sunleader said:

And lol nearly 30k average Damage with a CV when your complete Noob is rather Impressive.

You know what noobs in other Classes do on Average Damage ?

Ship classes are not comparable by damage. The Conquerer has 100k average damage, the Daring 50k. Which ship is superior? Which ship has more impact on the game and wins more matches? The Daring, by far.
30k average damage with a t8 CV is the opposite of "rather impressive". That's like saying getting 50k average damage with a t10 BB is rather impressive, or getting 15k average damage with a t8 DD is rather impressive.

Btw, that noob i looked up had about10k-20k more average damage in t8 battleships and cruisers, one of them beeing the Hipper of all things. My point still stands: You might be better with CVs than with other ship classes, but that doesn't apply to everyone.