CV Rework Discussion

[Yosha_AtaIante]

Vor 2 Minuten, 1MajorKoenig sagte:

 

Apparently they did. At least that’s what came out of the numbers the other guy posted - forgot who that was 

Also there is 8.4 to come which will lower spotting.

 

[1MajorKoenig]

4 minutes ago, L0V3_and_PE4CE said:

Also there is 8.4 to come which will lower spotting.

 

 

I forgot the exact numbers but one of the number geeks posted some number crunching and result was CVs deal much less damage and spot much less now. So Hunter’s statement is contradicting this - either he has different numbers or he just has a “feeeeeeeeling” about this 

[El2aZeR]

21 minutes ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

And here we disagree. Your unit doesn’t need to be able to deal damage in any given situation. Other classes are the same. There are situations where you are in an unfavourable position. 

 

Except a CV has no role left other than damage dealing in its inherent gameplay concept. There is no other role they can play without compromising the rework severely.

And no, there is are exactly two unfavorable situations for a CV.

One is an enemy within AA range that can shoot down returning planes. Since this is so incredibly rare this might as well not exist.

The other is getting a  CV teammate in a 2vs2 CV match (or god forbid 3vs3) while your opponents are competent. The match is practically default lost at that point.

 

21 minutes ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

Btw. Are you using exploits such as slingshot in your example? Because these will likely be fixed sooner or later (same as this stupid fighter exploit).

 

Slingshot is working as intended and will not be fixed. In fact it cannot get fixed because either it ruins the "cinematic experience" or the gameplay repercussions will be too harsh.

Slingshotting didn't always exist. It was introduced.

 

In the example mentioned previously? No, not intentionally. I used a drop on the Moskva as a "slingshot" to kill the Minotaur (who in the end suffered a topkek 55k damage from me alone. He didn't last beyond his first or second heal I believe) but that's about the only instance I did it in that particular match.

I abuse slingshotting all the time with Enterprise on the other hand because it synergizes beautifully with the no accuracy penalty on her DBs. Which funnily enough is also coming for all USN DBs if they decide to leave the next patch as is.

[Bainsmit_steel]

Has anyone tired GZ on PTS? How it fare?

[Prospect_b]

From the greatest nation on earth, that gave us hits like "Must invade Iraq cause Saudi's blew up our towers",  "the 2016 elections" and "invasion of morbid obesity", comes

this spring

 

 

[Sunleader]

7 hours ago, Yamato942 said:

As much as i can see if they want to maintain 10% or even more of cv players WG need to keep CV op as is, which is hell for surface ships. I mean, only fun that i finding these days in cv is pure power. I dont like new gameplay of cvs, its repetative attack,attack attack, no multitasking, no tactic, no risk, just a simple drop as much crap on enemys as you can. The only fun that cv can provide now is ruining surface ship fun and nothing else, if WG overnerf CVs to not be possible to be god in cv, i will be happy and will not play cv anymore and the cv playerbase will be again 2% or even less. CV now can be compared to Stalingrad and future Slava(Pobeda) as only fun that can provide is pure OP and nothing else.

 

If a Class is only Played because its OP and is not Played because its Fun to Play.

Then the Class should be Removed.

 

Because of course I as well currently Play more CV than before.

Albeit I was already Playing CVs quite a bit before the Rework.

 

And I can tell you.

I am simply not having Fun Playing CVs right now.

Before the Rework I played my CV because it was Fun. I am an active RTS Player after all.

Only Reason I play CV right now.

Is because its absurdly Overpowered and allowing me to easily get 300-500k Credits per Match which makes it the Number One Choice to Play for Earning Cash right now.

If not for that. I would not Touch CVs currently.

Because they are Insanely Boring and not Fun to Play.

 

If you dont Play CVs because its not OP as Heck. And Seriously Claim that only 2% will care for CVs if its not OP.

Then the Honest Answer on my side is.

That this is just one more Reason to Nerf CVs into Oblivion.

Because apparently if CVs are not Overpowered there is nobody there to Complain about them not being Good.

While with them being Godmode 90% of the Playerbase is Extremely Unhappy with it.

 

7 hours ago, L0V3_and_PE4CE said:

Well obviously everybody has a sifferent sense of fun.

Do you think people who barely manage 50% winrate in CV think it's fun because the class is OP? For those the class is a challenge and is fun because of the non stop action compared to slower play of all other ship classes.

Even if they nerf CV to do less damage it will still retain players because of these differences in peoples tastes.

 

Don't generalize others because it's unthinkable for yourself. the world would be quite boring if everyone had the same tastes.

 

I actually wanted to say this a few Days ago.

But due to your not exactly serious Nature stopped Answering you.

 

The Winrate is Honestly said entirely Irrelevant here.

And that was not what the Screenshot you were Shown there was about.

 

CVs currently Allow Players to become Good, Very Good or even Unicum very easily.

Thats a Fact.

You can See that Fact from myself as well. Cause my Rating on CVs post Rework is like 300-500 Points higher than on other Ships.

Which is also slowly Creeping into the Overall Statistics for my CVs which are not yet Flipped over due to containing too many Games from before the Rework.

 

Thing is Mate.

Right now.

If your T8 or higher CV. And are not so Unlucky to land in a Match where basicly 80% of the Enemy Team is 2 Tiers higher than you.

Doing 100k Damage and more is not even a Challenge.

 

The Enemy Team has a CV as well.

So of course there will be CVs with less than 50% Winrate.

But regardless of Winrate.

Both CVs will leave that Match with absurd Damage Numbers.

 

And thus their Personal Rating will Skyrocket even if they got a Negative Winrate. .

I mean dont get me wrong there.

I got a Freaking Average Damage of over 50k on a T6 CV.

Its doesnt matter if my Winrate barely moves from 50%

Because this way I am pretty much Guaranteed a 1600-1700 Rating.

A Rating which with other Ships I really need to Work for and which with a CV I just get presented on a Silver Plating without any Effort by fooling around and often on absolute Purpose go ahead Sinking the Enemy Carrier even tough he is the Ship Furthest away and best Protected thanks to Automatic Fighters etc. (Which by the way is not stopping me at all. Because even a Carrier which basicly has permanent Fighter Cover and which usually got Great AA is simply not going to do anything about me Bombing him)

 

 

 

[Beaker71]

Just played against a midway, 320 battles in the ship, with a win rate of 31%. Managed to sink them in my Kidd (sadly only playing DDs with good AA these days). I know the game isn't about win rates, but if you suck that badly with a given ship - why play it? Our CV was still only 42%, but noticeably better.

 

I guess if the best win rates are for CV players, it figures that the worst win rates are also for CV players.

 

[Yosha_AtaIante]

Vor 3 Minuten, Saiyko sagte:

From the greatest nation on earth, that gave us hits like "Must invade Iraq cause Saudi's blew up our towers",  "the 2016 elections" and "invasion of morbid obesity", comes

this spring

 

 

Yes give them fighter consumeable who cares. ☆♡☆

[Procrastes]

8 minutes ago, Saiyko said:

From the greatest nation on earth, that gave us hits like "Must invade Iraq cause Saudi's blew up our towers",  "the 2016 elections" and "invasion of morbid obesity", comes

this spring

 

3 minutes ago, L0V3_and_PE4CE said:

Yes give them fighter consumeable who cares. ☆♡☆

 

Brainstorming is a force for creativity, and suspension of disbelief is a vital part of one's own enjoyment of an arcade game and all that, but... seeing a whole squadron of little Hellcats take off from my USS Kidd, circle a few rounds, and then land on deck again in a stately formation - I dunno, but I suspect that this might just pop my immersion bubble somewhat beyond repair.

[Culiacan_Mexico]

DDs with fighter consumables.  

[1MajorKoenig]

1 hour ago, El2aZeR said:

Except a CV has no role left other than damage dealing in its inherent gameplay concept. There is no other role they can play without compromising the rework severely.

 

Well having a role of dealing damage doesn’t mean you need to be able ALL the time. Is a Torp focussed able to torp all the time? Nope there are situations when it doesn’t work so you can do it with any class.

 

1 hour ago, El2aZeR said:

Slingshot is working as intended and will not be fixed. In fact it cannot get fixed because either it ruins the "cinematic experience" or the gameplay repercussions will be too harsh.

 

Why not? It just works because WG wants to protect the planes you don’t have under your Control. You could make them return rather than being destroyed once taken too much Flak for example if you get rid of the invulnerability which would essentially remove the possibility to sling shot no?

[Pikkozoikum]

29 minutes ago, Culiacan_Mexico said:

DDs with fighter consumables.  

Is not that bad idea. Fighter consumable just means "escorted by fighters, which can approach from higher altitudes to support" and considering the old days, where people are crying for fighter support, this could be a solution

 

Is only the question, if this is balanced

 

41 minutes ago, Procrastes said:

Brainstorming is a force for creativity, and suspension of disbelief is a vital part of one's own enjoyment of an arcade game and all that, but... seeing a whole squadron of little Hellcats take off from my USS Kidd, circle a few rounds, and then land on deck again in a stately formation - I dunno, but I suspect that this might just pop my immersion bubble somewhat beyond repair.

I wrote it above. The fighters could be an escort on higher altitudes and on button they approach.

Higher altitudes just mean not visible for someone just like ships, which are not visible, if they're too far away or behind islands. Technically WG could also animate them, that they're flying really high all the time, but they would also overload the minimap even more

 

[El2aZeR]

6 minutes ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

Well having a role of dealing damage doesn’t mean you need to be able ALL the time. Is a Torp focussed able to torp all the time? Nope there are situations when it doesn’t work so you can do it with any class.

 

Because clearly torping is the only active role of a torpedo DD. 

 

7 minutes ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

Why not? It just works because WG wants to protect the planes you don’t have under your Control. You could make them return rather than being destroyed once taken too much Flak for example if you get rid of the invulnerability which would essentially remove the possibility to sling shot no?

 

Which removes the point of having multiple attacks per squad.

It would also make CVs even more unpunishable than before.

[1MajorKoenig]

1 minute ago, El2aZeR said:

Because clearly torping is the only active role of a torpedo DD. 

 

Err.. and CVs can’t do other things such as spotting either?

 

2 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

would also make CVs even more unpunishable than before.

 

Why?

[Pikkozoikum]

1 hour ago, L0V3_and_PE4CE said:

Also there is 8.4 to come which will lower spotting.

 

You mean the start delay or something different, that I don't know?

[El2aZeR]

8 minutes ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

Err.. and CVs can’t do other things such as spotting either?

 

Which keeps you engaged... how exactly?

A torpedo DD still can contest caps, support with utility or even fight with guns in addition to spotting. If you reduce a CVs role to only spotting you may as well remove them altogether because there is no point in having them in the game for that.

 

8 minutes ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

Why?

 

Most attacks even on isolated ships only get 2-3 drops through. By making planes leave for the CV instead of being destroyed while "slingshotting" it basically eliminates the need to shorten your squad, guaranteeing that one attack gets through AND only your attack wing gets shot down.

Besides, slingshotting is not only just abusing the invulnerability window. It'd still be effective due to the speed boost you gain via artifical acceleration. If you take that away on the other hand planes will once again be able to turn within close range AA after an attack making any other AA completely pointless. That is precisely why slingshotting was introduced in the first place.

 

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

[Procrastes]

59 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Is not that bad idea. Fighter consumable just means "escorted by fighters, which can approach from higher altitudes to support" and considering the old days, where people are crying for fighter support, this could be a solution

 

Is only the question, if this is balanced

 

I wrote it above. The fighters could be an escort on higher altitudes and on button they approach.

Higher altitudes just mean not visible for someone just like ships, which are not visible, if they're too far away or behind islands. Technically WG could also animate them, that they're flying really high all the time, but they would also overload the minimap even more

 

You are absolutely right! The animation should be done that way, as well - so that these fighters appear from above, instead of being launched from the ship.

[1MajorKoenig]

8 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

Which keeps you engaged... how exactly

 

You are really a 1/0 black/white type of person no? Just because you create certain situations where a CV isn’t able to attack it doesn’t mean he is never able to attack. In such situations he can still strike somewhere else or spot for the team.

 

16 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

not only just abusing the invulnerability window.

 

Sorry what I meant was - replace the invulnerability with planes not under your control taking damage but instead of kill them make them return. However not sure if it would work, was just brainstorming 

[DeviousDave02]

32 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Is not that bad idea. Fighter consumable just means "escorted by fighters, which can approach from higher altitudes to support" and considering the old days, where people are crying for fighter support, this could be a solution

 

Is only the question, if this is balanced

 

I wrote it above. The fighters could be an escort on higher altitudes and on button they approach.

Higher altitudes just mean not visible for someone just like ships, which are not visible, if they're too far away or behind islands. Technically WG could also animate them, that they're flying really high all the time, but they would also overload the minimap even more

 

 

Or you could make it a free DD ability that only turns up in matches with CVs in it and have the squadron launch from an allied carrier.

Make it like Damage Control Party in that it has unlimited uses with a cooldown timer...

 

 

...as long as your team has a CV that is still alive.

[Spithas]

2 hours ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

 

I forgot the exact numbers but one of the number geeks posted some number crunching and result was CVs deal much less damage and spot much less now. So Hunter’s statement is contradicting this - either he has different numbers or he just has a “feeeeeeeeling” about this 

I just love it when WG themselves prove the WG shills to be completely wrong.

 

 

If this doesn't scream "CV SPOTTING IS OUT OF CONTROL" then i don't know what does.

 

[Sunleader]

1 hour ago, L0V3_and_PE4CE said:

Yes give them fighter consumeable who cares. ☆♡☆

 

1 hour ago, Culiacan_Mexico said:

DDs with fighter consumables.  

 

Fighter Consumable on DD would be meaningless.

Currently Fighters are so useless as Bombing Defence that they dont even count as an Annoyance.

 

They are like a Landmine with a warning sign which self detonates after 1 minute....

[Spithas]

I cannot understand how Wargaming are so completely and utterly incompetent that they need to test a scenario like the first one in that list to see what will happen.... when anyone who has played 30 tier 10 battles can predict the results.

 

The sheer levels of incompetence of this team just knows no limit.

[El2aZeR]

18 minutes ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

You are really a 1/0 black/white type of person no? Just because you create certain situations where a CV isn’t able to attack it doesn’t mean he is never able to attack. In such situations he can still strike somewhere else or spot for the team.

 

You will find that a lot of game design decisions are based around 1/0 situations. This is because the human factor, aka skill is usually supposed to decide the outcome.

If you however design a class purely around damage dealing, any other activity becomes boring. As such a redesign of the 3rd person single squad gameplay to include complete shutdowns would be boring and frustrating to play especially in the current meta.

As such your proposal would inevitably fail perhaps the biggest goal of this rework. Most players will not want to circle for 5 minutes straight just so they can get an opportunity to attack. Most players will not want to spend precious time to switch flanks only to see that their window has closed or that it has reopened on the other side. It is completely untenable.

 

18 minutes ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

Sorry what I meant was - replace the invulnerability with planes not under your control taking damage but instead of kill them make them return. However not sure if it would work, was just brainstorming 

 

- do slingshot as usual

- use complete squad HP to soak the damage as you skip long and mid range AA

- do the attack as usual

- if any planes remain, while on your way out deliberately fly your planes into flak so that they become immune and return to the CV

= guaranteed loss of only the attack wing

[Procrastes]

19 minutes ago, DeviousDave02 said:

Or you could make it a free DD ability that only turns up in matches with CVs in it and have the squadron launch from an allied carrier.

Make it like Damage Control Party in that it has unlimited uses with a cooldown timer...

 

...as long as your team has a CV that is still alive.

Having a ship to return to is good for morale, I guess. I don't know about you guys, but I've always admired the loyalty and dedication to duty of our stalwart float plane pilots. If your ship is sunk while the planes are aloft, they will keep circling around the place where you went down until they run out of fuel and they, too, plummet to a watery grave... it's enough to make grown man cry, so it is.

[Culiacan_Mexico]

1 hour ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Is not that bad idea. Fighter consumable just means "escorted by fighters, which can approach from higher altitudes to support" and considering the old days, where people are crying for fighter support, this could be a solution

 

Is only the question, if this is balanced

IMO. Maintaining stealth is a huge factor in how successful someone can be in many mid tier DDs, a group of fighters flying over the top of you is a pretty big tell to the opposing team.