CV Rework Discussion

[T3ddyBear]

16 hours ago, Cagliostro_chan said:

But we already got an Enterprise captain.

But does the captain change the rockets to red phasers and the torps/bombs to "photon torpedoes"?

 

Now I would pay HUGE for a captain that did that on my BigE...

 

Especially if PS does the voice over; "engage" when launching an attack and "make it so" when you kill a ship, "resistence is futile" when attacking a DD..... just like the Rasputin camo for the Nikolai, make everyone able to here it.

 

I might have died and gone to heaven at that point :)

 

TB.

[1MajorKoenig]

44 minutes ago, Saiyko said:

Why did you say previously that the name "skill gap" was (used to be) inappropriate?

 

Anyway, you're essentially saying that as long as carriers aren't a "decisive unit", that the skill gap isn't a problem. Sure. But you seem to believe that carriers aren't a decisive unit (anymore), and that's where I disagree.

 

I said skill gap is a misleading term as it sounds like different skill is the problem. It is not - it is necessary to reward ppl getting better. 

 

The problem is skill gap combined with impact.

 

And yes we seem to disagree on the potential impact of a CV in the new world. You seem to rate it a lot higher than I would. Out of curiosity: are you referring to all CVs or only Midway?

[El2aZeR]

2 minutes ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

Out of curiosity: are you referring to all CVs or only Midway?

 

A truly pointless question. CVs have always been measured by their most impactful ships in the RTS iteration, if you want to make an apt comparison you need to do the same for reworked ones.

E.g. most reworked CVs are most definitely more powerful than RTS Ranger.

[1MajorKoenig]

5 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

A truly pointless question. CVs have always been measured by their most impactful ships in the RTS iteration, if you want to make an apt comparison you need to do the same for reworked ones.

E.g. most reworked CVs are most definitely more powerful than RTS Ranger.

 

Pointless question? You what mate? It is a big difference (and likely a very different solution) if you are talking about a single ship or two or if you talk about all ships of a class. For example - do you find Hosho OP or having a huge impact? Or Ryujo or Graf Zeppelin? My impression is once more that you are using some individual ships that are potential too powerful to support your case 

 

 

[Sunleader]

1 hour ago, WynnZeroOne said:

Identity mix up. Careful you don't fall off your high horse, it's on weak ground.

 

Your posts, and misuse of capital letters, not withstanding tone of communication are almost identical to the last pointless troll in this thread chanting 'won't work! roll back!' ad infinitum, ad nauseum, without offering actual suggestions or being prepared to discuss those of others.

 

Also, just like Sobchaak, when called out for your attitude and condescending tone, you also resort to claiming you've been personally attacked.

 

2 hours ago, Sunleader said:

 

Oh look...

Another Insult.

And another post only about me instead of bringing any arguments on the Topic.

 

I am soooo Impressed ^^

 

[El2aZeR]

8 minutes ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

It is a big difference (and likely a very different solution) if you are talking about a single ship or two or if you talk about all ships of a class.

 

You too are labeling all RTS CVs under a single umbrella term and calling them more impactful than reworked CVs you know? I'm sure you mean the likes of RTS Midway and Haku with that and not Bogue or Ranger.

Pot calling Kettle much?

[1MajorKoenig]

Just now, El2aZeR said:

 

You too are labeling all RTS CVs under a single umbrella term and calling them more impactful than reworked CVs you know? I'm sure you mean the likes of Midway and Haku with that and not Bogue or Ranger.

Pot calling Kettle much?

 

I am not labelling all RTS CVs necessarily OP but the set of possibilities they had made the class in the previous state indeed very impactful compared to any other class. Although Hosho was OP AF as far as I remember until they removed the manual stomp/drop on T4 and I remember high tier games being pretty much 1-vs-1 including really nasty perma spotting in multiple areas in the unlikely event a CV was part of the match. Yea that wasn’t great. But I think I explained what the general issue with the old RTS CVs was in the eyes of WG and with regards to the overall game before. But yes - impact on the battle was certainly one of them.

 

Which RTS carriers did not have an exposed spot with regards to impact? I mean how many out of the total? 

 

 

 

Btw and slightly off topic: My main criticism with the RTS model was “only” the lack of immersion. I just found it unfun to play. Which doesn’t hugely matter as I am not the one to decide which system is used but which is part of the “make CVs more popular to play” thing which worked for me and if you look at the games for a lot of other players. I wasn’t a CV hater before the rework by any means - I simply didn’t care as I couldn’t force myself to play them and never really encountered them in battles either. But I really like the reworked CV and I am annoyed by ppl trying to grab any straw to bad mouth the entire class - be it due to missing the old RTS or be it due to simply jump on the hate train at a convenient time. This whole discussion has nothing to do with constructive feedback 

 

[El2aZeR]

30 minutes ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

Which RTS carriers did not have an exposed spot with regards to impact? I mean how many out of the total? 

 

- Langley and Hosho became very meh after manual drop was removed

- Likewise with Bogue and Zuiho

- Ryujo and Independence were very powerful in their own tiers but became horrible when up tiered which happened extremely often

- Ranger was all around bad

- Lexington was workable but not particularly powerful

- Essex likewise was meh at best

 

That's what, about half the previously existing RTS CVs?

[Spithas]

Erazer replying to Majorkoenig... must be a very slow day for him.

[mcboernester]

11 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

That's what, about half the previously existing RTS CVs?

Nononono mate, you got it all wrong. you should listen to him, he's the expert 

[Prospect_b]

1 hour ago, T3ddyBear said:

But does the captain change the rockets to red phasers and the torps/bombs to "photon torpedoes"?

 

Now I would pay HUGE for a captain that did that on my BigE...

 

Especially if PS does the voice over; "engage" when launching an attack and "make it so" when you kill a ship, "resistence is futile" when attacking a DD..... just like the Rasputin camo for the Nikolai, make everyone able to here it.

+1

 

WG, make it so!

 

1 hour ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

And yes we seem to disagree on the potential impact of a CV in the new world. You seem to rate it a lot higher than I would. Out of curiosity: are you referring to all CVs or only Midway?

I barely play Memeway anymore (don't hurt me El2a). Hakekiku is where it's at

 

More complete: T4 CVs are weak (afaik, I only enjoyed her majesty's herpes a few times)

T6 are meh, depending on matchmaking

Shokaku is probably horse$hit, unless she has luck and is top tier. Even tier 9 will probably be painful, given spam of bs ships like jean bart.

Lexington is fine.

 

So yeah, in a way you're right, and I'm mainly talking about tier ten, especially given the horrid state of matchmaking for anything not tier ten (or 4), but as El2a said, the exact same thing was going on in RTS - with possible exception of tier sevens, and certainly exception of saipeen.

[El2aZeR]

5 minutes ago, Saiyko said:

I barely play Memeway anymore (don't hurt me El2a).

 

Well, I only play Memeway when I'm in a div nowadays. So primarily with you.

Still wish you could pick T8 CVs with T10 div mates. 

[Prospect_b]

3 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

Still wish you could pick T8 CVs with T10 div mates. 

inb4 pobeda is deemed too weak, and gets put at t9, together with the rest of the BS premium BBs. I'll happily div with your enterprise then

[1MajorKoenig]

33 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

- Langley and Hosho became very meh after manual drop was removed

- Likewise with Bogue and Zuiho

- Ryujo and Independence were very powerful in their own tiers but became horrible when up tiered which happened extremely often

- Ranger was all around bad

- Lexington was workable but not particularly powerful

- Essex likewise was meh at best

 

That's what, about half the previously existing RTS CVs?

 

I take you word on that. However you still have the component of shutting down the other CV if he’s worse in handling the fighters.

 

And to round up this line of thoughts - do you consider any other CVs other than the T10s too impactful after rework?

[El2aZeR]

24 minutes ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

However you still have the component of shutting down the other CV if he’s worse in handling the fighters.

 

Very true, however impact is undiminished because that is a two way street. The basic skill check was simply moved from player controlled fighters to flak.

Good CVs that would previously fight each other meanwhile are shifted towards killing surface ships completely, so their "impact" of fighting each other was simply shifted to "impact" against surface ships. It's not a direct nerf and I wouldn't even say that it made CVs less impactful overall.

 

24 minutes ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

do you consider any other CVs other than the T10s too impactful after rework?

 

Enterprise? 

In general

- T4 CVs are likely weaker than before. This is fine because RTS T4 CVs were ludicrously op, tempered only via removal of manual drop

- T6 CVs are about as powerful as before

- T8 CVs are overall about as powerful as before, but due to the oversaturation of CVs at T8 that kinda needs to be decided on a case by case basis

- Haku is slightly weaker, Midway is just as if not more powerful than before

 

So if you believe RTS CVs were too impactful reworked CVs are as well. What matters to me however is not the impact (as in an asymmetrical system such as WoWs some classes are bound to be more impactful than others), it is that the gameplay of reworked CVs is infinitely worse for surface ships as they have no effective counterplay options left whatsoever. No longer is anything decided on part of the surface ship player, whether you get murdered or not is entirely in the hands of the CV player. And lack of support options from your own CV player means he will have to leave you to your fate, making CVs the only class that is entirely focused on griefing other classes.

[duster_steel]

so ive been playing the fletcher recently trying to get the shinonome missions done and well... with the carriers being so powerfull could the fletcher please get its AA consumable back??

 

I just had a game where i started off at 20k hp, carrier keeps me perma spotted then drops bombs on me bringing me down to 17k then he comes around for a second pass bringing me to 1.7k hp and a dd finishes me off.

That's not the only time this type of thing happens to me i can hide and manoeuvre around the cv but eventually they'll find me and there is nothing i can do to counter it as they are on the opposite side of the map, multiple times theyve taken out both my torp launchers in the first 5 mins of the game or taken out my leading guns in the same space of time drastically reducing my combat effectiveness.

 

Please dont take this as blind hate, its not that i merely ask to be able to defend myself or atleast feel like i have a chance to do something to change my circumstance. 

 

 

 

[El2aZeR]

7 minutes ago, duster_steel said:

with the carriers being so powerfull could the fletcher please get its AA consumable back??

 

Fletcher still has DFAA.

It's just not as effective as it was before.

[Redcap375]

On 3/11/2019 at 1:59 PM, Yaskaraxx said:

I was playing my Alabama at that time, was next to another teammate Alabama (VIII)...next both our 2x Alabama's both got destroyed by T10 carrier in some 5 minutes.

 

I call BS.  Complete and total BS. 

 

I have a Alabama so i knew the score.  Against tier 8 torp planes from the Midway? Don't make me laugh.  I would wipe out a whole squad before it even got close, never mind bombers.  And with the great Torp belt the Alabama has got and the tightest turning on tier 8 BB?  36 planes max on the old system.  When you only had a certain amount of planes in the old system, that was harsh in the grand scheme of things.  And that's only a tier 8 BB without defensive AA consumable?  What about a Des, Hindy ect back then.  They slaughtered planes.

 

Oh and they were 2 of you? Did you even have any captain skills on that ship?

 

A tier 8 CV suffered even more from an Alabama and god help a lower tier one.

 

And even if they did do very good against a Alabama, well it's a bloody tier 10 CV for god sake? They should be strong against ships 2 tiers lower then it's self? What did you expect? A tier 8 Ship not fearing a CV 2 tiers above? Really?  I don't expect to come away unscathed against a Yam in a NC do I? 

 

My take on CV rework

It's been a success for WG. Yup, WG got it right....From a business point of view, which is the only view that matters in their eyes.  I don't hold this part against them.

 

More people are playing CV's and people are buying premium CV's. It's a winner, regardless of my personal views. 

 

HOWEVER...

 

The game as a whole because of it has degraded. The skill gap has increased and the camping meta has got worse.  They cant balance a cup of coffee and even when they said they needed a few tweaks here and there but are happy, they are nerfing again. A complete mess is the best way to describe it.

 

As long as there is 2+ MM regarding CV's, it's never going to be balanced.  However, balanced games don't make money (please see LoL) do they?

 

They will nerf them further, mark my words.  The best decision i made was to get rid of all my CV's. 

 

WG have a habit of nerfing ships when they have got their money out of them (enough people have ground them) or bring another line out to make it more appealing..  They haven't changed their ways in 6 years and isnt going to change. 

 

Countless examples of this ^^^

 

Kaba, YY, Hindy, Alsare ect ect....

 

The Julio was next on the list but due to the outcry (deservedly) and the effect it would have on sales (no one would buy a premium knowing they could simply move tiers) they bottled it.  A small victory on our behalf   But a part of me also think WG wanted it to move it due to the incoming tier 5 Russian BB that is very strong (very). 

 

Don't you think it's strange that there is no outcry of nerfs to certain ships, but all of a sudden, when a line or premium starts to come into the picture certain ships get their stats changed? What's the odds...Hummm

 

WG have a dedicated test team that day after day, test ships to balance them before release. They have popular streamers and people giving their views and opinions on the matter, some very strong and they still bring ships out like the Belfast, Balancegrad and the new tier 10 Russian BB?? That's not a poor balancing department (well i hope they are not that incompetent) that's simply money making and not giving 2 hoots about what anyone says. 

 

If they listened to streamer like Flamu, Noster, Flambass, LWM, including those involved in testing, the BlanceGrad would never in a million  years entered this game as it is.  No chance. 

 

Oh did i mention that most of the Russian BB line is simply better than the others? If that was another nation then expect a nerf when enough people have spent money/Free xp on them.  However, because they are Russian, i fear they wont touch them. 

 

Tier 5, 8 and 10 are simply too good at the moment. Last time all the Streamers said that they ignored them and carried on anyway (Balancegrad).  History does liKE to repeat it's self doesn't it?  

 

Sooooooo cv's.  Good for WG, crap for us (in a nut shell).

[AirSupremacy]

No matter how much is written, IMHO CV & AA play is immersive and jolly great fun !

 

Dr. Jean Bart,

greetings to Mrs. Stalingrad

 

 

[Prospect_b]

41 minutes ago, Redcap375 said:

If they listened to streamer like Flamu, Noster, Flambass, LWM, including those involved in testing, the BlanceGrad would never in a million  years entered this game as it is.  No chance. 

Balancegrad shows it weakness in CBs, where more and more clans only take one. In randoms you can kill club plebs. Who knew one should learn to angle in this game?

[Sunleader]

20 minutes ago, AirSupremacy said:

No matter how much is written, IMHO CV & AA play is immersive and jolly great fun !

 

Dr. Jean Bart,

greetings to Mrs. Stalingrad

 

 

Not.

[Yosha_AtaIante]

Vor 4 Stunden, Sunleader sagte:

I would ask about this other person you claim me to be tough.

As I stated before. I have been going under the Name Sunleader since 1999.

And while you might not Confirm it this far Back. You can Confirm that my Username has not Changed since 2012 inside this Forum.

So I would Request you keep Hallucinations or Past Traumata to yourself and do not project me as being some guy in your Past.

Hey :)

I did not claim that you have to be that person. I have simply quoted him on his assumption. I also checked if his claim was right by going to a stats page. Usually when a namechange happens you can search for the old persons name and the stats of the new name will appear under the same ID in the browser adress. It doesn't for you and the Sobchaak person.

So i simply stayed out of this to see how that all will develop.

I can understand however why he made the assumption since you both are blocking stats fro  public view (which is fine) and appeared around the same time while Sobchaak simply suddenly vanished.

Maybe he got tired of the crusade rather fast.

 

Also you need to better your attitude for real man. My Hallucinations or Past Traumata have nothing to do with anything on this forum or game.

 

[AndyHill]

So basically in that thread S_O says that he likes how constant spotting dumbs down the game so that WG can possibly get more money from casuals. Just wow.

[Yosha_AtaIante]

Yes ☆

Looks like he basically says that. ♡

He is insane person just like me ☆

[Uglesett]

8 hours ago, L0V3_and_PE4CE said:

There can't be any possible aiming solution which doesnt allow dodging!

Sure there can.

 

I mean, introduce shell velocity and arc for anti aircraft guns, and it could become quite the skillshot. A good player able to place sharpnel bursts right on top of a flight of aircraft... it's fundamentally no different from a good shot being able to cripple or knock out a surface vessel, after all. Except that aircraft regenerate, ships do not.

7 hours ago, L0V3_and_PE4CE said:

After all how can the developer know it any better right?

To be blunt, the period during which the developer knows better than the top players in any given multiplayer title lasts about one to two weeks after launch. After that even the best of the devs rarely have the skill or knowledge to truly play well in or even fully understand the high level meta of their own game. That's just the way of things: Game developers rarely have enough time to play to keep up with the player base.