CV Rework Discussion

[Yosha_AtaIante]

Vor 3 Minuten, WynnZeroOne sagte:

Small wonder I assumed you were Sobchaak

He is not?

I think he blocked me btw or he thinks all my responses are nonsense. Wouldn't be suprised either way i would also block myself.

Actually i wouldn't because i can handle opposition.

[anonym_WQDIB9XrzbSp]

29 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

Total RTS CV players still far outnumber the total amount of reworked CV players by virtue of the former having existed for a far longer time span. If what you were saying is true then there should be far more abysmally performing RTS CV players than reworked CV players.

 

 

Because from a gameplay perspective there is nothing particularly positive about reworked CVs. Sure, I could say that e.g. the visuals are pretty good, but the negative aspects far outweigh the positive ones, thus the latter are not worth talking about.

From a business perspective on the other hand I'm sure reworked CVs have been a success so far, but does that really matter to us?

About time the moderators closed this thread and started a new one with a list of your suggestions for discussion and deleted any post not specifically suggestion or improvement related. You seem to have a clear idea as to whats wrong and it would appear are a CV player of considerable skill. As they are not about to restart this toddler laden s***storm of CV haters versus mains failing to make any debatable points of quality, would you mind perhaps recapping your overall suggestions and thoughts that we might get this thing on topic?

 

It's like watching a window-licker pageant performing Despicable Me through the medium of tantrum at present.

[DFens_666]

3 minutes ago, L0V3_and_PE4CE said:

Why are you still playing this game?

Pobeda is work in progress.Btw S_O adressed the Pobeda issue too. But he is lying aaanyway right?

 

Tell me about the OP ship you are talking about, Stalingrad?!

Ah it's Enterprise right?

Yes continue on with all that it shows that you know much better how the game should be developed and work.

 

 

Im already playing very little. Problem is, i think this game could be much more enjoyable, but lack of alternatives still keep me here (somewhat, as im playing other games more)

Pobeda is WiP... thats what im saying. You dont need to [edited]test that, its clear that it will be totaly OP.

 

Also, i gave 2 examples about OP ships. Want more? Minekaze got nerfed, as it was same as Kamikaze trio. Kamikazes ofc stayed the same because they are premiums... They dig their own holes by releasing OP ships.

Stalingrad has imo 2 features which tend to make it too strong: Shorter fuse AP, and the armor threshold to arm the shell is lower than normal. Result is more citadels even tho it has railguns, and more pens or armor, which would be too thin for other ships to arm the shell. I still dont share all the Stalingrad whining in Forums, because its mostly down to one streamer, who said Stalin is OP. Where are the guys whining that Bourgogne is OP? Oh right, no streamer said its OP! Quite frankly, its much stronger in randoms than Stalingrad.

[1MajorKoenig]

2 hours ago, Saiyko said:

 

- skillgap is no problem, as long as it isn't too wide

- current skillgap width is "just about right, but close to the border (of too large)"

 

wow. 10/10 for newspeak

 

Also: muhahaha. Having a decent CV vs potato one is probably back at the state where it was in rts - i.e. you should go back to port instead of wasting 15 minutes of time.

 

 

 

 

And you base this statement on what exactly? 

 

My impression is that what was erroneously called “skill gap” is indeed not longer a thing 

[El2aZeR]

8 minutes ago, L0V3_and_PE4CE said:

So if you dismiss what WG is telling you then who are you believing and why are you still playing the game of a in your opinion dishonest company?

 

I'm not even holding that against them. It's a common company policy in this industry to never talk bad about anything your company does.

Still, it means putting trust in their words is unwise to say the least.

[anonym_WQDIB9XrzbSp]

3 minutes ago, L0V3_and_PE4CE said:

He is not?

I think he blocked me btw or he thinks all my responses are nonsense. Wouldn't be surprised either way i would also block myself.

Actually i wouldn't because i can handle opposition.

To be fair, they both have the same problem with you as they have with me.

 

Neither of us thinks CV's are fine, but it seems trying to discuss improvements or suggestions is impossible when a small hardcore of people who can't adapt are camped in the forum shouting people down and screaming rollback with no interest in fixing things.

 

Plenty of suggestions from plenty of people, but they don't get discussed they just get shouted down with 'won't work/can't work'.

[Yosha_AtaIante]

Vor 11 Minuten, El2aZeR sagte:

 

I'm not even holding that against them. It's a common company policy in this industry to never talk bad about anything your company does.

Still, it means putting trust in their words is unwise to say the least.

They have also acknowledged mistakes of the past, you can find multiple examples on public posts on reddit by @Sub_Octavian

You can find acknowledgement of mistakes stated by Conway on this forum.

They have talked openly about mistakes they made. Sub_Octavian got alot of abuse on reddit for trying to be transparent too.

They recieve way to much flak. I have never been a part of a gameing community with as transparent game devs as they are here.

They handled the GC nerfing proposal excellently, listened to the community outcry and still get flak for it.

 

 

But i need to take  break for now. At least we know the direction WG is going with all this now and i'm quite happy that they are confident in their belief that everything will be well under control soon.

thanks for the discussion El2aZeR, no hard feelings towards you and your opinion btw

[1MajorKoenig]

4 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

Problem is, i think this game could be much more enjoyable,

 

One honest word here and I don’t want to come across like a d*** but the game is supposed to please all sorts of players. There are a lot of elements I dislike very much - yea literally hate. 

 

But you won’t find that the game will be to 100% and always to your liking. Is this game fun for you? Play it. Is it in sum just not - think about it. But don’t expect it to be EXACTLY like you want it to be. It’s not gonna happen. So better accept that there will be pros and cons and a grand total which is either positive or not. Because right now - no hard feelings - you (and some of your CV hater fellows) come across like spoiled kids. Which I am sure you are not 

[LemonadeWarriorITA]

1 hour ago, L0V3_and_PE4CE said:

 

The new CVs are easier to get into, to pick up. Many have even complained about "how easy" CVs are to play now didn't you @LemonadeWarrior

 

Lets check my signature.

EDIT: It's still here. I am still a salty boy.

I did ask S_O a question whether there are any plans on making ships, that depend on concealment, more playable in the current meta, but still awaiting a reply...

[Sunleader]

33 minutes ago, WynnZeroOne said:

Again with the victim flag.

 

If clarifying for you that you've not made a sensible argument in pages of shouting down anyone who either disagrees with you or has a suggestion is an insult you really are in trouble.

 

I'm glad your impressed, I'm not. Up you pop with your capital letters everywhere, arrogantly and pompously damning anyone elses opinion with nothing other than your own confirmation bias and no intention of an actual discourse, pandering to the tired line that nothing will work apart from removal of the rework only to cry insult when somebody challenges you. It's not impressive at all. It's a disappointment quite frankly.

 

Transparent agenda. Zero tangible contribution to discussion. Behavioural inability to engage in debate. Small wonder I assumed you were Sobchaak 

 

41 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

 

Oh look...

Another Insult.

And another post only about me instead of bringing any arguments on the Topic.

 

I am soooo Impressed ^^

 

[DFens_666]

13 minutes ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

One honest word here and I don’t want to come across like a d*** but the game is supposed to please all sorts of players. There are a lot of elements I dislike very much - yea literally hate. 

 

But you won’t find that the game will be to 100% and always to your liking. Is this game fun for you? Play it. Is it in sum just not - think about it. But don’t expect it to be EXACTLY like you want it to be. It’s not gonna happen. So better accept that there will be pros and cons and a grand total which is either positive or not. Because right now - no hard feelings - you (and some of your CV hater fellows) come across like spoiled kids. Which I am sure you are not 

 

Well ofc, but i think there a lot of people unhappy with the new CVs aswell. I dont think, anyone can deny that. Old RTS CV players, people who straightup quit the game with the rework, surfaceship players that feel are getting abused by CVs without retaliation (we get several threads per day ! ) and DD players in general.

 

In general, i feel the game has gotten worse over the years. Could be me ofc, but atleast for my enjoyment its gotten worse. And its not only because of CV rework. Powercreep is one thing, Meta being what it is, is another one (for that i blame CV rework).

And i always wanted, that every class can have fun playing the game. A lot of people just want to read what they wanna read however, and they start to lable you (CV/DD hater, CV/DD apologist, BBaby, i wanna protect my Cruisers). Literally i got called everything of those over the years. If that would be true, it would mean that i actually want a BALANCED game, as i will be for or against certain changes depending on the situation.

- Im pro radar, and i think radar is necessary for the game -> DD players dislike me

- I know new CVs made playing DD much harder and pretty much unappealing to play -> DD players like me, even if they previously were against me

 

With how CVs are currently in the game, i dont feel that they bring any enjoyment when i play any surface ship. It ranges from mildly annoying to game ruining depending on the class. If i play a DD, Cruisers and BBs can do certain things which help me to get a fun game. I can spot for them so i can help them have a nice game. Your own CV provides nothing if he choses to be on the other flank, or even ignores to spot DDs which are 12km away from his hull. Ontop of that, the enemy CV can ruin your entire game.

[Prospect_b]

34 minutes ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

My impression is that what was erroneously called “skill gap” is indeed not longer a thing 

If that's your "impression", then I'll advice you the same as I did for @L0V3_and_PE4CE: take less drugs.

 

Anyway, open a random carrier page on wowstats and sort 1. on battles played 2. on winrate (both descending & ascending) - here's on for the haku: https://wows-numbers.com/ship/4179605200,Hakuryu/?order=battles__desc#leaderboard

 

You see already ppl with hundreds upon hundreds of games, with glorious 28-40% winrates. Yes, there are bbs etc with the same wr, but they're not dragging their team with them, or at least certainly not to the same extent.

 

Which, as I said earlier, gives the exact same situation one could have in RTS: you have the 34% braindead and they have the 70% superscum? Might as well go back to port.

Not being able to shoot down planes with fighters changed nothing, as (once again) @El2aZeR predicted correctly.

[El2aZeR]

35 minutes ago, L0V3_and_PE4CE said:

They have also acknowledged mistakes of the past

 

Which they have previously represented as fine successes. Basic example are RTS AP bombs. Sometime after those have been released devs stated in a Q&A that their performance is fine.

Yet when the rework was first announced suddenly RTS AP bombs were labeled as a toxic mechanic (which they most definitely were). You can't even say that the situation changed because AP bombs were never changed ever. in fact WG only made things worse by introducing GZ with AP bombs far superior than their USN counterparts.

 

See, the issue is not that they make mistakes, everyone does. It is that they label these mistakes as completely fine and working as intended first. It would be MUCH better if they had not said anything at all or given us the usual "we're looking into it" instead.

But since they insist on that everything they do is great regardless of whether it actually is they do nothing but undermine their trustworthiness. Putting faith in anything they say at this point is a complete and utter dice roll. It is the direct opposite of transparency.

And while I most definitely do not condone death threats or other  some parts of the community likes to fling around, a good amount of flak the devs catch is well deserved because of that.

 

No worries, no hard feelings here either. :)

[DFens_666]

1 minute ago, Saiyko said:

You see already ppl with hundreds upon hundreds of games, with glorious 28-40% winrates. Yes, there are bbs etc with the same wr, but they're not dragging their team with them, or at least certainly not to the same extent.

 

Id like to add to this, that low WR BB/DDs can even be down to divisions consisting of 3 of those 40% players. Naturally, they will lower their WR to new depths (especially if they play 3x DD div or 3x TX BB)

While this guy

https://wows-numbers.com/player/504245102,MechMac/

doesnt need a division, he gets 28% Haku WR all by himself Must be a bot or something i dunno, seems crazy...

[Prospect_b]

3 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

doesnt need a division, he gets 28% Haku WR all by himself Must be a bot or something i dunno, seems crazy...

that guy is bloody famous

I've been discussing him with el2a - we didn't reach an agreement on what it was. My guess is someone either very very young or (more likely) very very old, as in 70+

 

edit: he improved close to 10% on his haku pre- versus post rework though

[Prospect_b]

8 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

It would be MUCH better if they had not said anything at all or given us the usual "we're looking into it" instead. 

You should check out that reddit thread, it's nothing but

- that's work in progress

- it's on our list of possible things to add

- we're looking into it

- we are thinking about the possibility (of..)

 

etc

 

I'd rather have your first option, the golden silence.

[1MajorKoenig]

4 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

 

Well ofc, but i think there a lot of people unhappy with the new CVs aswell. I dont think, anyone can deny that. Old RTS CV players, people who straightup quit the game with the rework, surfaceship players that feel are getting abused by CVs without retaliation (we get several threads per day ! ) and DD players in general.

 

In general, i feel the game has gotten worse over the years. Could be me ofc, but atleast for my enjoyment its gotten worse. And its not only because of CV rework. Powercreep is one thing, Meta being what it is, is another one (for that i blame CV rework).

And i always wanted, that every class can have fun playing the game. A lot of people just want to read what they wanna read however, and they start to lable you (CV/DD hater, CV/DD apologist, BBaby, i wanna protect my Cruisers). Literally i got called everything of those over the years. If that would be true, it would mean that i actually want a BALANCED game, as i will be for or against certain changes depending on the situation.

- Im pro radar, and i think radar is necessary for the game -> DD players dislike me

- I know new CVs made playing DD much harder and pretty much unappealing to play -> DD players like me, even if they previously were against me

 

With how CVs are currently in the game, i dont feel that they bring any enjoyment when i play any surface ship. It ranges from mildly annoying to game ruining depending on the class. If i play a DD, Cruisers and BBs can do certain things which help me to get a fun game. I can spot for them so i can help them have a nice game. Your own CV provides nothing if he choses to be on the other flank, or even ignores to spot DDs which are 12km away from his hull. Ontop of that, the enemy CV can ruin your entire game.

 

I get your point bro. However hoping for a stable online game is like fighting windmills. WG will keep adding stuff and not all of it will improve the game (just think about the idiotic HE spamming Monkey BBs). A lot of the veterans are still dreaming of the early days with just IJN vs USN but time moved on.

 

See I like DDs a lot and played them more recently. Sure it’s different but it will evolve. WG will keep on working on DD vs CV balance. 

 

And I have fun playing the new CVs and don’t think they are a big problem playing against them. I get that most of you are thinking T10 only (and apparently Big E) but that is individual ships’ balance. 

 

So while it is important to give feedback we shouldn’t expect that WG will change each and every single bit just because some very vocal individuals demand it. Mind you that it doesn’t look like currently that the overall player numbers are affected by the rework and the CV numbers indicate a much higher popularity. 

 

Btw S_O mentioned that DD CV interaction will see some further changes so let’s see what’s behind that 

 

[1MajorKoenig]

14 minutes ago, Saiyko said:

If that's your "impression", then I'll advice you the same as I did for @L0V3_and_PE4CE: take less drugs.

 

Are you nuts??? Why would I take less drugs...? I am on vacation and there is no way I’ll stay sober 

 

But that aside - saying there are bad players doesn’t indicate that there is a large skill gap. 

 

There are always good and bad players no matter how simple things are. That’s not a problem

 

It’s only a problem if a large difference in skill meets having one decisive unit on the team. Because in that case it is hit or miss. Either your decisive unit is good -> you win or he is bad -> you lose. That is a problem. 

 

So the actual problem is: skill gap multiplied by impact of the unit devided by the number of such units. So the old style was the worst case that could happen - one unit with extreme impact and high skill variance.

 

WG increased the numbers and reduced the impact - therefore skill variance (which undoubtedly is still there) isn’t such a big deal any more 

[Sunleader]

1 hour ago, L0V3_and_PE4CE said:

He is not?

I think he blocked me btw or he thinks all my responses are nonsense. Wouldn't be suprised either way i would also block myself.

Actually i wouldn't because i can handle opposition.

 

I can understand that the other Guy would rather Ignore this Fact.

But I generally try to only Answer Posts when they make a Statement on the Topic. Or when I am Personally Addressed.

 

Your posts so far seem more like your Trolling than that you are trying to make any kind of Statement on the Topic.

And as unlike the other Guy you so far didnt bother Addressing me. I had no reason to answer them.

 

 

I would ask about this other person you claim me to be tough.

As I stated before. I have been going under the Name Sunleader since 1999.

And while you might not Confirm it this far Back. You can Confirm that my Username has not Changed since 2012 inside this Forum.

So I would Request you keep Hallucinations or Past Traumata to yourself and do not project me as being some guy in your Past.

 

 

Cheers

[Prospect_b]

2 minutes ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

 

Are you nuts??? Why would I take less drugs...? I am on vacation and there is no way I’ll stay sober 

 

But that aside - saying there are bad players doesn’t indicate that there is a large skill gap. 

 

There are always good and bad players no matter how simple things are. That’s not a problem

 

It’s only a problem if a large difference in skill meets having one decisive unit on the team. Because in that case it is hit or miss. Either your decisive unit is good -> you win or he is bad -> you lose. That is a problem. 

 

So the actual problem is: skill gap multiplied by impact of the unit devided by the number of such units. So the old style was the worst case that could happen - one unit with extreme impact and high skill variance.

 

WG increased the numbers and reduced the impact - therefore skill variance (which undoubtedly is still there) isn’t such a big deal any more 

Why did you say previously that the name "skill gap" was (used to be) inappropriate?

 

Anyway, you're essentially saying that as long as carriers aren't a "decisive unit", that the skill gap isn't a problem. Sure. But you seem to believe that carriers aren't a decisive unit (anymore), and that's where I disagree.

[anonym_WQDIB9XrzbSp]

1 minute ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

There are always good and bad players no matter how simple things are. That’s not a problem

Well, it is a problem. At least when the potato is in your fleet 

 

But, as you say, there are good and bad players in every class. I was a bad player last night, straight up awful. I was about as attractive to my own team as one a girl with a face like a punched Lasagna.

 

Focus in on CV's because it suits. As a DD main, the benefit of all blame, appropriate or not, being targetted at CV's is that as a DD you can actually play without being screamed at.

[anonym_WQDIB9XrzbSp]

3 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

I would ask about this other person you claim me to be tough.

As I stated before. I have been going under the Name Sunleader since 1999.

Identity mix up. Careful you don't fall off your high horse, it's on weak ground.

 

Your posts, and misuse of capital letters, not withstanding tone of communication are almost identical to the last pointless troll in this thread chanting 'won't work! roll back!' ad infinitum, ad nauseum, without offering actual suggestions or being prepared to discuss those of others.

 

Also, just like Sobchaak, when called out for your attitude and condescending tone, you also resort to claiming you've been personally attacked.

[anonym_WQDIB9XrzbSp]

On topic:

 

DD's have been a lot more brazen in going after CV's round the map without otherwise contributing to the actual fight in the last few days, are they suddenly benefiting from new CV nerf/DD buff, or have they all maniacally thrown caution to the wind?

 

Forget that - in hindsight, they've all died quickly because none of the BB's are more than 5km from the spawn either and the CV hunt turns into an HE and rocket hailstorm. The latter seems to be the case 

[El2aZeR]

12 minutes ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

WG increased the numbers and reduced the impact - therefore skill variance (which undoubtedly is still there) isn’t such a big deal any more 

 

And, pray tell, how can you tell that they've "reduced the impact" of CVs?

[Prospect_b]

2 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

And, pray tell, how can you tell that they've "reduced the impact" of CVs?

they did it by saying they did, duh