CV Rework Discussion

[Toivia]

10 minutes ago, AirSupremacy said:

Glad there is a nice ongoing discussion on 2D, 3D and whatnot.

I`m warming up the airplanes again :) Here comes the sky !

 

Be my guest, I have finished for the day with the crap randoms already. Other people's time to get fucked by CVs and the additional imbalance it throws on teams. (Yes, I continue to have so much fun in games like the one with double T8 CVs per team today, all 4 survived, but theirs were both decent, we had one idiot. So they win. So much fun for the surface ships.)

[Pikkozoikum]

3 hours ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

Another interesting proposal by @Pikkozoikum was to remove spotting from all strike planes and add a new squadron dedicated to spotting but being unarmed. I would test that as well.

For those who are interested

 

 

I would love this kind of aircraft

[AndyHill]

A couple of things came to mind during my recent carrier adventures. First of all, based on WTR (damage/kills/winrate), at least the Midway is currently played hilariously badly on average. If you judge balance by the current state of affairs, you have no idea what's coming when people begin to actually learn to play. Secondly, unless there are fast and drastic changes in the scoring system, the saltiness in ranked is going to be out of this world. It almost feels difficult to not top the scores in a carrier, especially when you get the uncarriable side.

[ThePopesHolyFinger]

On 5/14/2019 at 11:02 AM, AirSupremacy said:

Division play as a unit of 3 friends works great IMHO ( 1x T10 mega AA ship included ) .

The rework enforces more team play, if players want to be good and carry the game.

 

A 3x player division where each player does +100K damage in their stats will often rule the match.

 

 

And that only works for thos who play in divisions in a "random" match.
It's not really fun for thos clicking random and expecting a team of random players. Random with divisions of friends is part way to clans, and is definitely not as random as 12 random strangers meeting 12 random strangers.

[anonym_WQDIB9XrzbSp]

45 minutes ago, AndyHill said:

A couple of things came to mind during my recent carrier adventures. First of all, based on WTR (damage/kills/winrate), at least the Midway is currently played hilariously badly on average. If you judge balance by the current state of affairs, you have no idea what's coming when people begin to actually learn to play. Secondly, unless there are fast and drastic changes in the scoring system, the saltiness in ranked is going to be out of this world. It almost feels difficult to not top the scores in a carrier, especially when you get the uncarriable side.

PTS ranked seemed to work out just fine, teams moved as fleets, DD's and CV's spotted. Not particularly salty considering many people treat PTS like it's life and death.

 

You'll be pleased to know not many carriers topping out on ranked, I saw none in some 20 ranked matches. Mostly DD's.

[Sunleader]

41 minutes ago, WynnZeroOne said:

PTS ranked seemed to work out just fine, teams moved as fleets, DD's and CV's spotted. Not particularly salty considering many people treat PTS like it's life and death.

 

You'll be pleased to know not many carriers topping out on ranked, I saw none in some 20 ranked matches. Mostly DD's.

 

Thats not Surprising to be Honest.

If you would bother Listen once in a while.

You would have noticed. That the People Complaining here Complain about the System which makes CVs Overpowered.

 

Because right now. There is only ONE SINGLE Check on wether or not your CV Food or Immune to CVs.

And that is wether or not your AA Rating is High Enough to Kill Bombers before they Reach You.

 

No Skill, No Gameplay, No Knowledge. Just that Simple Question.

Is your Automatic AA Strong enough to Massacre the Entire Squadron of Bombers before they Drop.

 

 

In Ranked Battles. CVs therefore Suck.

Because you ALWAYS have several of these AA Specked Cruisers around. Which just Delete Squadrons regardless of what the CV does.

 

 

 

Make a Good Note of it.

Because right now in Random Battles. Most of the Time there is no Immune Ships around.

Threshold is still pretty high before you get Immunity from CV Attacks.

 

But as the vast Majority is Anti CV. And due to this System only Allowing for Ships either being Food or Immune to CVs.

Wargaming will keep Nerfing CVs until the Majority is Immune to their Attacks and then CVs will be the ones Crying because they are useless ;)

 

 

 

Of course.

If you had listened to People a bit.

You would have known this several Days ago already.

[rising_uk]

TBH I think I'm done with this game now.

I'm just an average player who liked to sail around having fun shooting other ships and show a modicum of teamplay and skill, i.e. angle ship, use stealth, flank, etc but this perma-spotted creeping about in a blob with wave after wave of planes attacking me if I even dare to move anywhere from the blob is just a bore. I'll play my ten games a week for the clan in naval battles but that's it for me. I'll wait until subs arrive and then spend all my time hunting CV's just for the fun of it.

 

[KillStealBoss]

1 hour ago, WynnZeroOne said:

PTS ranked seemed to work out just fine, teams moved as fleets, DD's and CV's spotted. Not particularly salty considering many people treat PTS like it's life and death.

 

You'll be pleased to know not many carriers topping out on ranked, I saw none in some 20 ranked matches. Mostly DD's.

It's hard to say the same will be on live server. I think it'll be a lot of Haku as a CV cause there'll be many cruisers. 

[anonym_WQDIB9XrzbSp]

42 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

Of course.

If you had listened to People a bit.

You would have known this several Days ago already.

I did know this several days ago already. If you were less argumentative and not looking for an argument all the time you'd have read what I wrote properly.

 

I simply said "PTS ranked seemed to work out just fine, teams moved as fleets, DD's and CV's spotted. Not particularly salty considering many people treat PTS like it's life and death." At no point in the statement have I implied that this information is new, or has just come to me or should be news to anyone else.

 

As usual, in your typically arrogant and pompous fervour to challenge every post I've made since I initially corrected you over 48hrs ago, you've jumped the gun and made yourself look foolish. Again!

 

You'll be wanting to change your username for  second time in 48hrs? 

24 minutes ago, MacArthur92 said:

It's hard to say the same will be on live server. I think it'll be a lot of Haku as a CV cause there'll be many cruisers. 

Yup, we won't know what occurring until it goes live. Not enough people on PTS tbh.

[AirSupremacy]

2 hours ago, DB2212 said:

And that only works for thos who play in divisions in a "random" match.
It's not really fun for thos clicking random and expecting a team of random players. Random with divisions of friends is part way to clans, and is definitely not as random as 12 random strangers meeting 12 random strangers.

Playing 99% in random I must say it`s far more relaxing to team up in a division with another 1 or 2 good players.

However, I like challenges...So if a team has lots of 30k average damage T10 damage players, then it's nice to carry a match as good as possible.

 

IMHO the biggest influence on to players outcome is the matchmaker, regardless of what WG does every month over the years in terms of ship stats balancing.

 

A missile boat with one single fat guided missile per launch, which of course could also target CV`s, would be great joy...Just as a content idea.

Submarines, DD & Plane Water bombs would also add to the theatre of war feeling.

[Yosha_AtaIante]

Here you go anti cv people. Looks like the changes you would like to see are faaaaaaaaaar away

 

Sub Octavian is a beast.

Saying things like the skillgap problem is much better handled now as with the RTS CVs. They are pretty confident.

Looks like you need to hate and spam more for your desired removal to happen LOL

 

Looks like i'm as clueless as them as i said half the things S.O answered here already. ☆♡☆

 

[Culiacan_Mexico]

55 minutes ago, L0V3_and_PE4CE said:

They are pretty confident.

 

I like the part with regards to spotting, because when 0.8.0 came out they were confused why players were concerned about spotting... they believe it was less of an issue under the new system.

[Yosha_AtaIante]

Vor 44 Minuten, Culiacan_Mexico sagte:

 

I like the part with regards to spotting, because when 0.8.0 came out they were confused why players were concerned about spotting... they believe it was less of an issue under the new system.

It is less of an issue as many make it out to be. Another reddit thread gathered data of spotting damage since rework and relevant patches. It's only 5k higher then rts version and with the coming of 8.4 it will get even lower due to slower planes and CD at the start. So spotting actually isn't more of an issue as it was in RTS. Another thing haters are wrong about.

BTW me saying "they are pretty confident" wasn't sarcasm.

 

WG knows it better which is not a suprise.

I can't wait to recieve all the "bad" and "boring" reactions.

 

 

 

[Culiacan_Mexico]

15 minutes ago, L0V3_and_PE4CE said:

It is less of an issue as many make it out to be. Another reddit thread gathered data of spotting damage since rework and relevant patches. It's only 5k higher then rts version and with the coming of 8.4 it will get even lower due to slower planes and CD at the start. So spotting actually isn't more of an issue as it was in RTS. Another thing haters are wrong about.

BTW me saying "they are pretty confident" wasn't sarcasm.

 

WG knows it better which is not a suprise.

I can't wait to recieve all the "bad" and "boring" reactions.

 

 

 

While WG may confidently believe that spotting is a number on an excel spreadsheet, they are incorrect. Quality vs quantity.

 

Thus their talk about a meta change.

[159Hunter]

35 minutes ago, L0V3_and_PE4CE said:

It is less of an issue as many make it out to be. Another reddit thread gathered data of spotting damage since rework and relevant patches. It's only 5k higher then rts version and with the coming of 8.4 it will get even lower due to slower planes and CD at the start. So spotting actually isn't more of an issue as it was in RTS. Another thing haters are wrong about.

BTW me saying "they are pretty confident" wasn't sarcasm.

 

WG knows it better which is not a suprise.

I can't wait to recieve all the "bad" and "boring" reactions.

I've read tons of CV players stating that CV spotting is lower now cause there is only one squadron. At least that is proven wrong now.

As for the rework: they failed with their rework, spotting was an issue WG wanted to address. They wanted a damage based class, and they still end up with a class that does more spotting than before. And it's different spotting: it's active localized spotting. In RTS there was the spotting: just drop a plane in that zone, forget about it and don't even bother moving it around to spot a ship that's skirting the edge of spotting. Now all of the spotting is done with the controlled squadron, with the CV player actively choosing what to spot..

 

WG knows best? Sure they do, they are known for only releasing balanced ships and have yet to pull ships from store or remove them from game completely because they weren't balanced 

 

@1MajorKoenig my post to you was there to clarify what El2azer posted, as you keep asking what he's saying about CVs. A bit odd, as his opinion has been almost unchanged since the rework was revealed.

[159Hunter]

Double post, delete plz

[Culiacan_Mexico]

I believe WG is correct when it says spotting is lower now than RTS.

Spot  damage

Player Average for Shipclasses [ at 2019/05/11 ] 
CV    Higher Tier               53237
CV    Lower Tier                21786

Player Average for Shipclasses [ at 2018/02/10 ]
CV    Higher Tier               57156
CV    Lower Tier                25062

 

 

I just don't believe that WG grasps that the increased speed of the reworked aircraft allows players to use their aircraft more effectively for map control.

 

Base defense

Player Average for Shipclasses [ at 2019/05/11 ]
CV    Higher Tier                12.31
CV    Lower Tier                   11.9
Player Average for Shipclasses [ at 2018/09/15 ]
CV    Higher Tier                  5.35           
CV    Lower Tier                   4.07           

[Yosha_AtaIante]

Vor 23 Minuten, 159Hunter sagte:

I've read tons of CV players stating that CV spotting is lower now cause there is only one squadron. At least that is proven wrong now.

As for the rework: they failed with their rework, spotting was an issue WG wanted to address. They wanted a damage based class, and they still end up with a class that does more spotting than before. And it's different spotting: it's active localized spotting. In RTS there was the spotting: just drop a plane in that zone, forget about it and don't even bother moving it around to spot a ship that's skirting the edge of spotting. Now all of the spotting is done with the controlled squadron, with the CV player actively choosing what to spot..

 

WG knows best? Sure they do, they are known for only releasing balanced ships and have yet to pull ships from store or remove them from game completely because they weren't balanced 

 

@1MajorKoenig my post to you was there to clarify what El2azer posted, as you keep asking what he's saying about CVs. A bit odd, as his opinion has been almost unchanged since the rework was revealed.

WG isn't wrong. 5 k higher spotting on average is insignificant and it will be even lower, i suspect it will get 10k lower after 8.4 patch.

You seem to not understand.

The argument of active spotting is the biggest nonsense i ever read. It's passive. But you keep your delusions for however long you want them.

At least we know now what WGs views are and that you won't get what you are screaming for, which is isolated spotting or removal of CVs

[ApolloF117]

1 minute ago, L0V3_and_PE4CE said:

At least we know now what WGs views are and that you won't get what you are screaming for, which is isolated spotting or removal of CVs

thats why we have the radar nerf now, because it wasnt of a big issue
ooor there was just enough cry about it on the forums
if players keep cry about the cv spoting for long enough, it will be changed somehow 

[Yosha_AtaIante]

Gerade eben, ApolloF117 sagte:

thats why we have the radar nerf now, because it wasnt of a big issue
ooor there was just enough cry about it on the forums
if players keep cry about the cv spoting for long enough, it will be changed somehow 

ok ♡

And you remember what i said about spotting being useless anyways?

Just go ahead, cry for a year or two, get it removed. You won't reduce my impact on the game. You will never understand. ☆

[ApolloF117]

Just now, L0V3_and_PE4CE said:

And you remember what i said about spotting being useless anyways?

no i haven't read, and im not really affected too much by spoting cus im always go guns blazin', and im not a too passionate dd player, only thing makes me cry that aa has worse rng than wot penetration system  :D

im just sayin' radar wasn't of a big issue for dd players who knew how to play around it, and they kept crying and it got changed a little

[Yosha_AtaIante]

Vor 2 Minuten, ApolloF117 sagte:

no i haven't read, and im not really affected too much by spoting cus im always go guns blazin', and im not a too passionate dd player, only thing makes me cry that aa has worse rng than wot penetration system  :D

im just sayin' radar wasn't of a big issue for dd players who knew how to play around it, and they kept crying and it got changed a little

AA is not rng. It's consistent dps damage to planes. Sometimes planes die faster depending on the CV players skill to dodge the flak clouds.

I can give you lessons if you like. I will treat you normally of course without any trace of my forum persona.

Maybe you can get a better idea then on how it all ties together when it's about CVs and how they really work.

 

WG changed radar a little, yes. It's a small nerf.

If you compare removing of spotting to CVs it's a whole othe level of nerf for the average CV player. Hardly a good comparison to make.

 

[1MajorKoenig]

8 hours ago, Uglesett said:

The base design is for units moving in a 2D plane, with line of sight, ballistics and movement restrictions determined by 3D terrain geometry.

 

3D movement  breaks these limitations by basically removing the limitation on line of sight and ballistics.

 

My best suggestion would be to get a TARDIS, travel back in time and explain to the devs just how bad the idea is to include CVs in the game. Unfortunately that one has some practical limitations. Beyond that, a reversion to the much less bad implementation of the RTS version would be preferable. Or finally the suggestion I posted earlier in this thread. 

 

No dude this point about 2d/3d is completely irrelevant. Sorry.

 

And no, nobody wants to go back to the RTS system - better get this out of your system

 

 

[1MajorKoenig]

3 hours ago, L0V3_and_PE4CE said:

Here you go anti cv people. Looks like the changes you would like to see are faaaaaaaaaar away

 

Sub Octavian is a beast.

Saying things like the skillgap problem is much better handled now as with the RTS CVs. They are pretty confident.

Looks like you need to hate and spam more for your desired removal to happen LOL

 

Looks like i'm as clueless as them as i said half the things S.O answered here already. ☆♡☆

 

 

Skillgap or what they actually meant by it should indeed be fixed

[EgyptOverseer]

1 hour ago, Culiacan_Mexico said:

I believe WG is correct when it says spotting is lower now than RTS.

Spot  damage

Player Average for Shipclasses [ at 2019/05/11 ] 
CV    Higher Tier               53237
CV    Lower Tier                21786

Player Average for Shipclasses [ at 2018/02/10 ]
CV    Higher Tier               57156
CV    Lower Tier                25062

 

 

I just don't believe that WG grasps that the increased speed of the reworked aircraft allows players to use their aircraft more effectively for map control.

 

Base defense

Player Average for Shipclasses [ at 2019/05/11 ]
CV    Higher Tier                12.31
CV    Lower Tier                   11.9
Player Average for Shipclasses [ at 2018/09/15 ]
CV    Higher Tier                  5.35           
CV    Lower Tier                   4.07           

Just to add to this, spotting influence and spotting damage are two very different things. For example, my spotting damage record was in an Iowa, spotting for myself. Spotting influence, on the other hand, influences tactics and overall team movement, and the permanent spotting in place now makes for a meta where concealment means literally nothing, and flanking is no longer a viable strategy unless the CV is tunnel visioning on that sole DD in the cap. I would argue that your stats prove that spotting influence has actually increased, and I am surprised to see WG state that they are fine with one of the most important stats in the game now being made redundant - concealment.