CV Rework Discussion

[Yosha_AtaIante]

Vor 3 Minuten, El2aZeR sagte:

Because these are the principles reworked CV play is built upon they cannot be altered without severely compromising the rework one way or another (which is e.g. what your suggestions above would do). As such it is unfeasible to even attempt saving it, the only viable option is to scrap it completely. What happens after that is up in the air (rollback, complete removal, something entirely new etc.).

Your replays have always worked for me so far so i will gladly watch it.

 

This last point of yours is i guess what you mean by "without scrapping".

 

Yes, changes that would be able to balance it would scrap the original idea and reason why the rework has been made. But if these kind of changes are needed for balance then so be it. It's still a better solution then to isolate or remove the entire class.

Do all the changes necessary even if the original idea of the rework gets lost. as long as balance is achieved but saying it's impossible to have CV in fhe game is just lazy by most of the haters.

[El2aZeR]

4 minutes ago, L0V3_and_PE4CE said:

Your replays have always worked for me so far so i will gladly watch it.

 

A bit off topic, but isn't it a known issue that replays are currently unwatchable or did they fix that already?

At least the last time I tried watching a replay (with the same version as the game) I got into an infinite loading loop on the title screen. Remember seeing quite a few topics about that as well on here. Admittedly that was like a week ago or so and I haven't tried since.

[Yosha_AtaIante]

Vor 6 Minuten, El2aZeR sagte:

 

A bit off topic, but isn't it a known issue that replays are currently unwatchable or did they fix that already?

At least the last time I tried watching a replay (with the same version as the game) I got into an infinite loading loop on the title screen. Remember seeing quite a few topics about that as well on here. Admittedly that was like a week ago or so and I haven't tried since.

I will try watching one of my own replays later and report back to you. You can try sending it regardless whenever you got the time.

[Prospect_b]

11 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

2. Reworked CVs play solely for themselves and have no true team supporting abilities. This is exacerbated by CVs being fundamentally incapable of effectively opposing each other. In what is supposed to be a team game this is unacceptable.

Meh.

While theoretically true, this hasn't been a teamgame in ages, and since most people know that it is cumbersome (and somewhat futile) to send fighters, I'm quite glad I don't have to waste time doing *whatever teamwork could imply" to assist some nitwits.

 

Not saying that that isn't extremely sad, but it's just how it is now (and since a long time or even forever?) - and I know you know that :)

 

Also, you never know what they'll do with the "support CVs". Maybe they'll have an option to send out first person fighters to hunt planes. That would make that line extremely "cockblocky", so I'd say there is a good chance of that happening.

[Sunleader]

1 hour ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

 

For once we agree. The problem isn’t “no counterplay” though but “manual attack vs RNG defense”.

 

However that isn’t an issue of the rework but an issue with WG refusing to give players control over their AA guns. That would be a player vs player situation - however WG doesn’t want to unfortunately. 

 

Rather than not wanting to.

Its more of an issue of how to do it.

 

 

If you give manual control to the Player and gets halfwat accurate Guns for AA.

It will soon be so that CVs wont get any Drops done. Because the Aircraft dont really have much variety in movement.

They always come at same height etc.

So just like in Navyfield you will soon face a situation where Players will easily massacre a whole Squadron in a few Salvos.

 

If you make the AA Guns inaccurate so the Player misses despite Aiming right.

You end up with the same problem as now where Surface Ships are Helpless against Attacks.

 

So you would need to also advance Aircraft Controls and Maneuvering to allow for evasion and attacks from different angles.

 

 

This would basicly be a whole new Rework.

[El2aZeR]

6 minutes ago, Saiyko said:

Not saying that that isn't extremely sad, but it's just how it is now (and since a long time or even forever?) - and I know you know that :)

 

Capabilities have to be there, not necessarily be used. The former is a design requirement, the latter is what (should) decide matches.

 

While I share your sentiment of not needing to do jack for my teammates in reworked CVs, that is more because such capabilities are incompatible with how reworked CVs play anyway. Hence why this is a fundamentally flawed issue.

E.g. sending fighters to assist teammates in the RTS iteration was easily done. Doing the same in reworked CVs is an extreme bother and in fact neither benefits you nor your team funnily enough.

[Sprockett]

well WG it has been a while since the CV rework, and I can confirm this:

 

1 - I am playing very little these days, 3/4 games and then my salt rises and I stop having fun, so stop playing

2 - I have not spent a penny on this game since the rework, where as before I was spending £30-50 per month on premium, gold and ships

3- the content suppliers of videos of WoWs on YT is now pitiful, mostly videos promoting premium ships, there are no CV videos as they are boring as F**k to watch

4- well done WG for not listening to your player base, making a once fun and engaging game in every match to game of maybe 1 out 10 matches being fun, the rest are just click bait for CV's... 

 

I see that this thread has grown and grown some more and yet we still have OP CV's that cannot be stopped,  so really the impression I get is that WG are not interested in what there old faithful customers wanted and I have voted with my wallet and basically playing so little of the game now.  Match after match now are so one sided, that I get games over in 10 mins with 12 ships left one team and other team finished. This is not fun any more. 

 

And also because most matches are CV'd when one does get a no CV match people have no idea how too play anymore, so you still get total potato teams...

 

Watching people like FLambass, say every time there is a CV in the match playing against his surface ship making derogatory comments against  the CV's and then when playing a CV making a point of ruining other players games and pointing out how broken this whole rework is:

 

Bring limited planes numbers , so shooting down planes with RNG means something

1 cv per match across all tiers

 

anyway I have been enjoying other games and feel that my passionate affair of the last 3 yrs of WoWs has now ended and the game really is broken with CV's in. 

 

[Culiacan_Mexico]

1 hour ago, elblancogringo said:

RTS CVs were indeed broken as well, but very few people were playing them, which is why there was less crying.

The new CVs are wayyy more popular than the old ones. So of course, all problems that they have is magnified by the big player population that uses them.

[AirSupremacy]

10 minutes ago, Sprockett said:

...

4- well done WG for not listening to your player base...

1

Thank you WG for listening to your player base and making all ship classes fun to play.

Maybe father Xmas brings along Submarines this year, it would be very nice :)

[rising_uk]

8 minutes ago, Sprockett said:

...

anyway I have been enjoying other games and feel that my passionate affair of the last 3 yrs of WoWs has now ended and the game really is broken with CV's in. 

 

Exactly where I'm at now.

 

Out of interest what other games?

[Sprockett]

1 minute ago, rising_uk said:

Exactly where I'm at now.

 

Out of interest what other games?

Atlantic Fleet, Cold Waters, Men of War, Post Scriptum etc, 

I wont play War Thunder as I do not like the owning company, which also sad!

 

sadly WoWs was the best Navel MMo out there. WAs being the operative word!

 

[Yosha_AtaIante]

Replays are indeed not working fml

[EgyptOverseer]

3 hours ago, Asakka said:

Yeah they could tone down the AA a bit 

Well, what I am pointing out in particular is the absurdly high survivability rate (all data gathered so far places CV survivability at a rate that is beyond broken, further compounded by DoT timers and AA counters that are more brain-dead OP than any other OP aspect of any ship in game at the moment, Conqueror included), the long range AA being entirely avoidable by the striking force with very little skill needed (flak is basically a flawed implementation, as it stands, giving zero input possibilities to the generator of flak and being an asset that is negated by the absurdly high speed of planes), and the unreasonably high strike potential posed by high tier multi-squadron attacks (compared to anemic strike potential at low tiers that justifies multi-squadron approaches).

 

If WG continues to disregard this, the result will be the one I stated. 

[rising_uk]

47 minutes ago, Sprockett said:

Atlantic Fleet, Cold Waters, Men of War, Post Scriptum etc, 

I wont play War Thunder as I do not like the owning company, which also sad!

 

sadly WoWs was the best Navel MMo out there. WAs being the operative word!

 

Ta!

[1MajorKoenig]

2 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

 

A fundamentally flawed product cannot be saved and deserves to be scrapped precisely because it is fundamentally flawed.

But again, so many of you seem convinced that the concept of a class that can always and at any given time absolutely murder any other class aside from themselves can somehow be balanced. I have yet to see a single objective argument as to why that is.

 

The irony of labeling our stance as "lazy" when we have given pretty good reasons as to why we believe that the CV rework cannot be saved while you have yet to give us a single objective argument to convince us otherwise is rather amusing, no?

 

You only said you can engage any opponent which isn’t surprising as you are an experienced player and is frankly not different to any other class.

You didn’t say why in your opinion the rework can not be balanced. You just claimed it.

[Beaker71]

The games at the moment are generally so bad, with or without CV. The CV rework has either gotten rid of a lot of reasonable players, or 70% of the players don't know how to play anymore.  

 

More one sided games than ever before. I really do think this is the beginning of the end

[Prospect_b]

1 hour ago, L0V3_and_PE4CE said:

Replays are indeed not working fml

?

What's wrong? I watched one yesterday.

[El2aZeR]

9 minutes ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

You didn’t say why in your opinion the rework can not be balanced. You just claimed it.

1 hour ago, El2aZeR said:

1. The fundamental gameplay of the rework is built around the CV always being able to deal severe damage unless in the most extreme situations (which would be e.g. a bunch of 6+ capital ships with good AA all in one spot). This means there are no effective counterplay options to reworked CVs.

2. Reworked CVs play solely for themselves and have no true team supporting abilities. This is exacerbated by CVs being fundamentally incapable of effectively opposing each other. In what is supposed to be a team game this is unacceptable.

3. Reworked CVs have no true downsides nor limitations when played competently. Unlike their predecessors they can be anywhere at the right time if the situation calls for it, ironically giving them even higher flexibility and power. Likewise plane losses can be severely mitigated and play practically no part in their tactical play anymore. Hull survivability too has been improved to the extreme.

4. Because these are the principles reworked CV play is built upon they cannot be altered without severely compromising the rework one way or another (which is e.g. what your suggestions above would do). As such it is unfeasible to even attempt saving it, the only viable option is to scrap it completely. What happens after that is up in the air (rollback, complete removal, something entirely new etc.).

 

*breathe in*
boi.

[Yosha_AtaIante]

Vor 4 Minuten, Saiyko sagte:

?

What's wrong? I watched one yesterday.

I don't know supposedly someone i pmed a replay to for him it worked but the same replay file doesnt for me

[Prospect_b]

2 minutes ago, L0V3_and_PE4CE said:

I don't know supposedly someone i pmed a replay to for him it worked but the same replay file doesnt for me

If you have the one with el2a going after two seattles, pm it to me on discord plz.

[HaachamaShipping]

56 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

Hull survivability too has been improved to the extreme.

Nah, they could've given them a repair party.

[DFens_666]

2 minutes ago, Cagliostro_chan said:

Nah, they could've given them a repair party.

 

In b4 glorious russian CVs with repair party Not that they need it, they will probably have mountain grade armor which protects them from everything. Like a floating rock or something

[Hundigo]

15 hours ago, L0V3_and_PE4CE said:

That's what i like about these people. And it's not like the entire forum is in here discussing with us. It's usually the same, around 10 people who are repeating the same over and over.

If the CV rework was so important to the haters, they would give reasonable points and suggestions which could actually be considered for a change.

You (anti cv crowd) care about the state of the game? Then stop being lazy and shouting lazy ideas.

Stop shouting remove or isolate!

Come up with your own ideas how to better the situation without saying lazy things like unbalanceable.

 

How can you possibly think that removing or isolating CVs is the only reasonable thing to do while claiming you care for the game?

Caring for the state of the game means to also care about all of it's playerbase. If you don't give a ☆ about the enjoyment of CV players because they "ruin" your game then you are not caring for them, not the game, not it's rules but only for yourself.

 

and before you say "But you as a cV player who ruins others peoples enjoyment also doesn't care right?"

No, i care. I play CV because it's fun for me, other players and to provide WG with the data they need to balance them correctly while learning and teaching other players about the reworkes class, how to play and avoid it.

Players already given numerous ideas about the rework CV. 

They not did it here on this forum topic but also in other ones, they've pointed them out in several posts and also on the testervers. WG neglect them all. 

- constantly spotting is an issue; players came up with the idea to show it only on the minimap. Patch 08.04 announcements shows that WG didn't implement it, neither have any plans for it. 

- announcement for patch 08.04 WG is somehow working on the HE bomb, wider spread for example. For the DD players, it's not the HE bombs that causes the issue for them, it are the 'rockets'. WG neglect them all. For them, HE bombers need a rework. That CV players self point it out that  would be even better  against BB players, seems not to be an issue for WG. 

- announcement 08.04 gonna have a 30 to 45 seconds delay for the CV players to use their plaines. Many players and forumusers replied, that's not a solution, it's gonna be even better for the CV players cause some vessels shall already be near the cap or split up from their teammates, because they move for example faster. 

- current infinity planes; many players and forumusers suggested it to have a limit amount of plaines available in the game and not like now. WG neglected it because in the patch 08.04 announcements, not any single word about it. 

-  Airplaines speed is an issue, because they can be from one side of the map almost in an instant to the other side of the map. WG neglected it. Only an announcements that the speedboast for the planes shall now have a general outcome for all of them. 

- AA against airattacks are an issue. Players suggested already to make it better. The side option for your AA to work isn't sufficient. AA sometimes work, and delete a whole air attack squadron, sometimes it does'nt do a thing at all. Airattacks still happens, even when the ship and captain of that vessel is totally AA maxed out. 

 

Gameplay self;

 

- For DD's 'stealth ' is one of  their strenght. It's all litterly in the water with the CV rework. Stealth doesn't excist anymore with the CV rework. 

- Players can not 'flank' their opponents in the game anymore. 

 

And I can go one and for example also repeat all my own posts alone about it so you could see that many players have given ideas for the rework CV and that even without the only option to have them totally out of the game. 

 

So to tell now that players and forumusers didn't give ideas is verry short of your side. 

[El2aZeR]

21 minutes ago, Cagliostro_chan said:

Nah, they could've given them a repair party.

 

They actually tried that.

I'm not even joking.

[xxNihilanxx]

3 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

 

A bit off topic, but isn't it a known issue that replays are currently unwatchable or did they fix that already?

At least the last time I tried watching a replay (with the same version as the game) I got into an infinite loading loop on the title screen. Remember seeing quite a few topics about that as well on here. Admittedly that was like a week ago or so and I haven't tried since.

 

3 hours ago, L0V3_and_PE4CE said:

I will try watching one of my own replays later and report back to you. You can try sending it regardless whenever you got the time.

 

3 hours ago, L0V3_and_PE4CE said:

Replays are indeed not working fml

 

Move the replay you want out of the "replays" folder (in my case I just copy it to my desktop) - et voila! Working replay!