CV Rework Discussion

[Sunleader]

2 hours ago, DreadArchangel said:

Just something you said about historical, neither would dd torps either historicaly the dd was an escort /subhunter, not the ninja it is today, with incredible torps, low visability, and of course smoke, the air drop torps  do do little damage, with the tier 10 american tb's doing around the 4k mark before taking off any torp protection  that ships have.

 

Also aa was not that accurate to be honest, it was more of a case of putting as much  as possible in front of attacking planes and hoping for the best.

 

Also historicaly the cv was the king of the sea its plain and simple , which is waht caused the end of bb's in wg its far from it.

 

So lets leave historical out of it, because this game is not, its a game with  game mechanics.

 

 

Actually.

Thats not entirely True.

 

1.

AA was Inaccurate. But so was Aircraft.

Actually hitting the Target with an Aircraft was really hard.

2.

Aircraft Carriers were the King of the Sea.

But not the King of a Sea Battle.

In an actual Surface Engagement. CVs were nearly useless.

Because Aircraft  had real Problems to Identify and Target a Ship correctly.

Carriers in Reality were Kings because they could Attack enemy Fleets from 80km away and do this over and over for Days.

 

For this Purpose a Carrier would effectively spend several hours launching Aircraft and then sending them at the Enemy Fleet in one big or several smaller Waves.

 

In the Game however. We got a Surface Battle.

CVs would usually not be useful here and would in Reality Retreat immediately.

Not launching any Aircraft due to not being able to in that maneuver.

 

 

 

But yes I agree.

Lets leave Historical out of this.

The Game is unhistorical on nearly all Accounts.

And its fine this way.

 

 

The importand piece which is not fine.

Is the current situation where CVs ruin the Game for everyone else.

[Yosha_AtaIante]

ative

Vor 24 Minuten, Sunleader sagte:

 

I do not wish to drive you any further into a Corner. So as stated above I will not poke you anymore and thus ignore that little toxic rant there.

 

 

The first comment however is something else.

This is a Competetive Multiplayer Game.

And Wargamings Official stance is that they want it to be Balanced.

 

If YOU dont want to Play a Game unless you can Play with a massive Advantage over your Opponents. I suggest playing Singleplayer and PvE Games.

 

 

But thanks for Admitting that CVs are currently massively Unbalanced and urgently need to be Nerfed or Removed.

You taking my comment out of context like that?

It applies to all games. You not being able to see that and project all these things to fit your narrative is amazing after you said you won't poke me anymore. You can continue poking me btw. ☆

I am the corner btw ♡

 

[xxNihilanxx]

8 hours ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

 

No it is not. It is a new level of mafiaism and toxicity in this game. If you follow this path further you can easily remove DDs next. That’s what the BB-mafia wanted for a long time anyway. 

 

How many more times!?!? This is not and never has been a case of one class wanting the removal of another but rather this is all classes of surface ships wanting removal of aircraft. Not even remotely the same and, in all honesty, not that difficult to understand. Why are you struggling so much with it?

 

8 hours ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

 

The amount of idiocy I am reading here is mindblowing. 

 

See above.

 

8 hours ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

 

On top this stupid hate is constantly fueled by some ex-RTS guys who are salty that their mini game got removed. 

 

Yep, they certainly lack anything remotely akin to subtlety.

 

8 hours ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

 

All this leads to a rapid decline of this community for no substantial reason 

 

CVs are the reason. The community is clear about that. If they are causing such decline in an otherwise quite congenial community then doesn't this add weight to their removal. They are obviously just too controversial.

[Yosha_AtaIante]

So nerfs or removal or both? ☆

What should be done? ♡

[zbzbzb]

Don't want to thorize to much guys, but I thought WoW was a ship game, not aircraft one. It seems I was wrong as the CVs (i.e. planes) are most influential in the game and can ruin anyone's life if they are just half-competent. This is just not fun to play.

[AndyHill]

9 hours ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

No it is not. It is a new level of mafiaism and toxicity in this game. If you follow this path further you can easily remove DDs next. That’s what the BB-mafia wanted for a long time anyway. 

 

The amount of idiocy I am reading here is mindblowing. 

 

On top this stupid hate is constantly fueled by some ex-RTS guys who are salty that their mini game got removed. 

 

All this leads to a rapid decline of this community for no substantial reason 

I'm impressed with the amount of well founded and reasonable arguments you use to make your case.

[Yosha_AtaIante]

Vor 1 Minute, AndyHill sagte:

I'm impressed with the amount of well founded and reasonable arguments you use to make your case.

Come on man, both sides are guilty of that.

[Lootboxer]

1 hour ago, L0V3_and_PE4CE said:

So nerfs or removal or both? ☆

What should be done? ♡

Nerfs first, then removal. Slooow looong death like from CV in a battle. 

[AirSupremacy]

1 hour ago, xxNihilanxx said:

...

CVs are the reason. The community is clear about that. If they are causing such decline in an otherwise quite congenial community then doesn't this add weight to their removal. They are obviously just too controversial.

 

There is no player base decline and the few ranters think they are a majority in view of thousands of other players.

WG will add more gameplay content and add further variety to the game over time.

Lots of new whining and outcry game content to come in the future.

 

[1MajorKoenig]

1 hour ago, xxNihilanxx said:

How many more times!?!? This is not and never has been a case of one class wanting the removal of another but rather this is all classes of surface ships wanting removal of aircraft. Not even remotely the same and, in all honesty, not that difficult to understand. Why are you struggling so much with it?

 

Dude Aircraft Carriers are the most powerful warships of the portrayed period and - believe it or not - they indeed come with airplanes (!)

 

What’s difficult about this simple truth is beyond me. Or do you also struggle to understand that destroyer come with torpedos? We should clearly remove destroyers for the reason that torpedos are not Warships. Seriously dude - wake up 

 

1 hour ago, xxNihilanxx said:

CVs are the reason. The community is clear about that

 

Au contraire. If that would be the case we wouldn’t have this argument. The community is torn over this question. There are the ones living in the past and whining about their RTS mini game and there are the ones appreciating the fresh breeze. And then there are all the CV haters who finally stick out their heads out of their fox whole and jump conveniently on the hate train that is running now. Pathetic at best 

[1MajorKoenig]

11 minutes ago, AndyHill said:

I'm impressed with the amount of well founded and reasonable arguments you use to make your case.

 

An Argument for what? The hater boys didn’t bring anything substantial other than “minimi a CV touched me minimi”. What should I tell you? That CVs are warships? That CVs belong into the game?

 

or shall I talk you that If you think DDs have no purpose left (which is wrong in my opinion but that’s what some here keep telling) you can remove them as well?  

 

Is the balance perfect? Certainly not. Is this the only case of incomplete or bad balance? Hell no. Does it need to be fixed? Yes - among a million other problems. Is it worth such a whine show? ... (nope)

[anonym_WQDIB9XrzbSp]

1 minute ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

Aircraft Carriers are the most powerful warships of the portrayed period and - believe it or not - they indeed come with airplanes (!)

Whodathunk that in 2019, in  forum dedicated to a Naval game, called World of Warships, that we'd still have to explain the concept the the aircraft carrier to people.

[Sunleader]

2 hours ago, ApolloF117 said:

then every ship who are able to do 200k dmg are op?

 

No.

The Question is the Gameplay behind it.

 

How much Influence do your Decisions have on that Damage.

How much Influence do your Enemies Decisions have on that Damage.

 

 

In a Perfectly Balanced Game.

The Influence is exactly 50% on both sides.

Lets use an example where both Players have exactly the same BB.

 

So if 2 Equally Skilled Players Face each other.

And each does 100k Potential Damage.

Each makes some Mistakes and will usually only land 60% on Target.

So.

Both are Equally Skilled. 50% of that would be denied by the other Player making the right Counters.

So as Skill Relevance is 50% for both.

They would be able to get 50k potential Damage against their opponent and hit 60% of that thus getting 30k Damage through.

 

 

With CVs however.

This is currently not the case.

There is little to no counterplay to CV.

And the CV is not even required to be in range for the Enemy.

 

So if 2 Equally Skilled Players Fight.

And both got a Potential Damage of 100k again.

The Influence here is different.

The BB has nearly no Control over his Damage.

Him reaching the CV and doing Damage Depends 90% on the CVs Decision.

And only 10% on the BB Player.

So the BB despite having equal skill.

Only gets potential of 10k Damage.

And as he hits 60% he does only 6k Damage through.

 

The CV meanwhile has 90% control over his Damage.

So he has potential of 90k Damage on his Opponent despite that opponent being Equally Skilled.

He hits 60% of that. Meaning he gets 54k Damage.

 

 

 

 

 

Thats why the Situation is Unbalanced.

90% of the Result depends on the Skill of the CV alone.

While his opponent is barely contributing 10%

 

Thanks to that.

Even a Complete Noob CV. Will still be able to Effectively Bomb an highly Skilled Veteran Player in a BB.

 

 

 

Needless to say.

That this kind of unbalance results in the Players which have no real influence on the result to be frustrated and start complaining.

[Sunleader]

18 minutes ago, WynnZeroOne said:

Whodathunk that in 2019, in  forum dedicated to a Naval game, called World of Warships, that we'd still have to explain the concept the the aircraft carrier to people.

 

The Sad Part is that obviously some People dont get the meaning of the word Game.

If nothing else. I.ve never come across Historical Records of Aircraft Carriers that had unlimited Aircraft and Pilots.

And that were invisible to any Ship or Aircraft more than 10-15km away.

[Procrastes]

13 minutes ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

 

An Argument for what? The hater boys didn’t bring anything substantial other than “minimi a CV touched me minimi”. What should I tell you? That CVs are warships? That CVs belong into the game?

 

or shall I talk you that If you think DDs have no purpose left (which is wrong in my opinion but that’s what some here keep telling) you can remove them as well?  

 

Is the balance perfect? Certainly not. Is this the only case of incomplete or bad balance? Hell no. Does it need to be fixed? Yes - among a million other problems. Is it worth such a whine show? ... (nope)

Replying to your points in order of appearance, Captain!

 

We should certainly strive to keep the discussion free from any kind of "hate arguments". I have tried to keep my posts pertinent and based on factual arguments. And I want to be clear that I absolutely do not hate CV:s - or CV players, for that matter. Both, I'd say, belong in the game.

 

And I should definitely hope that destroyers have a lot of purpose left - they being my favourite ship class and all. My words about sometimes feeling a bit redundant when I'm in a destroyer, is just that - a feeling. It is a feeling that no one in this game should have to experience, irrespective of which ship class he or she prefers. The code word, as ever, is "balance".

 

Which brings me to your third point. I'm glad to see that we agree on the need for a "balance fix" to this CV rework. I am sorry if my posts on the matter have come across as a whine show. It is sometimes hard to get the right tone in a debate - but let me assure you, that nothing I have written was intended as whining or digs against other players!

 

Cheers!

 

[anonym_WQDIB9XrzbSp]

29 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

 

The Sad Part is that obviously some People dont get the meaning of the word Game.

 If nothing else. I.ve never come across Historical Records of Aircraft Carriers that had unlimited Aircraft and Pilots.

And that were invisible to any Ship or Aircraft more than 10-15km away.

I know right? ...and yet, because it's a game this is expected. That's why we also have repair, 20 second damage control, BB's that can hide 12km away from you, ships that can stealth shoot and unlimited ammo.

 

This is because most of us understand the concept of game.

So using the 'it's a game argument' against an element of CV play whilst blatantly ignoring the ridiculously unrealistic elements and components that pervade every other element of the game, including RTS, shows an inability to rationally discuss changes. This is no surprise.  You are  vehemently opposed to the change, so I'm not surprised that your blinkers are tight.

 

It IS a game. A free one. Play it, don't play it. Like it, don't like it. There's a point at which you find something else to do though? Surely.

 

Heck I sold my DD's at first because I hated it. Then I went through a boring period of only playing AA cruisers, then I had a go in CV's because I've only played them sporadically on either server. I moaned about my year of premium on discord because my enjoyment had been altered.

 

...and then I had a moment of rationale and realised that aside from the need to balance some of the AA mechanics so that neither side gets impunity the CV's really don't impact my games. They are counterable, they are vulnerable and my mindset needed to be one of adapting to them or playing something else.

 

I adapted. I'd prefer to play than sulk, I'd prefer to improve than reject the changes.

[Sunleader]

8 minutes ago, WynnZeroOne said:

I know right? ...and yet, because it's a game this is expected. That's why we also have repair, 20 second damage control, BB's that can hide 12km away from you, ships that can stealth shoot and unlimited ammo.

 

This is because most of us understand the concept of game.

So using the 'it's a game argument' against an element of CV play whilst blatantly ignoring the ridiculously unrealistic elements and components that pervade every other element of the game, including RTS, shows an inability to rationally discuss changes. This is no surprise.  You are  vehemently opposed to the change, so I'm not surprised that your blinkers are tight.

 

It IS a game. A free one. Play it, don't play it. Like it, don't like it. There's a point at which you find something else to do though? Surely.

 

Good Argument.

If WG follows it there will soon be only CVs in Battle ;)

And nothing else.

[anonym_WQDIB9XrzbSp]

17 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

 

Good Argument.

If WG follows it there will soon be only CVs in Battle ;)

 And nothing else.

I know. Except, it's never been an argument, it just observations. I don't need to argue, I can choose to play or leave.

 

 

I'm gonna carry on doing that. Playing. Confident that just like February when people started declaring the death of the player-base it simply didn't happen, nor has it. Not i Feb, not in March, nor April, nor May.

 

If I start disliking it, I'll spend my free time on something else. What's your plan once the reworks permanence sinks in?

 

[Yosha_AtaIante]

Vor 2 Minuten, WynnZeroOne sagte:

What's your plan once the reworks permanence sinks in? 

Probably playing chess.

 

A patch with nerfs is around the corner. Let's see how it will affect CVs and continue to offer solutions for balanced gameplay. Can't wait for that to happen? Well then...

[AndyHill]

1 hour ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

An Argument for what? The hater boys didn’t bring anything substantial other than “minimi a CV touched me minimi”. What should I tell you? That CVs are warships? That CVs belong into the game?

Let's start with a simple why. The fact that CVs are warships doesn't mean they belong in an arcadeish game that focuses on surface gunships. Especially since history buffs like us certainly know what they did to naval combat in reality. Also as a history buff I'm naturally offended by the extremely hollywoodish way carriers are portrayed in game; in reality carriers and surface ships didn't coexist in battles like they do in this game. It would be far more realistic to have separate matches with major fleet carrier operations and perhaps AI gun ships and separate battles for gunship vs gunship combat. Just like reality.

[Yosha_AtaIante]

Vor 4 Minuten, AndyHill sagte:

Let's start with a simple why. The fact that CVs are warships doesn't mean they belong in an arcadeish game that focuses on surface gunships. Especially since history buffs like us certainly know what they did to naval combat in reality. Also as a history buff I'm naturally offended by the extremely hollywoodish way carriers are portrayed in game; in reality carriers and surface ships didn't coexist in battles like they do in this game. It would be far more realistic to have separate matches with major fleet carrier operations and perhaps AI gun ships and separate battles for gunship vs gunship combat. Just like reality.

For how long have they been part of WOWS now?

Who are some haters to decids what belongs to the game and what doesn't?

Mentioning arcade game and reality in the same post is also funny. You guys are repeating yourself again.

[1MajorKoenig]

1 hour ago, Sunleader said:

 

The Sad Part is that obviously some People dont get the meaning of the word Game.

If nothing else. I.ve never come across Historical Records of Aircraft Carriers that had unlimited Aircraft and Pilots.

And that were invisible to any Ship or Aircraft more than 10-15km away.

 

Like unlimited torpedoes? Ah wait it’s a GAME. With GAMEY mechanics. GAMEY as in ARCADE.

 

youre welcome

[Sunleader]

3 minutes ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

 

Like unlimited torpedoes? Ah wait it’s a GAME. With GAMEY mechanics. GAMEY as in ARCADE.

 

youre welcome

 

Dont tell that to me.

Tell it to the guys which keep yapping about CVs being the King of the Seas in Reality and thus should by default be overpowered in the Game.

 

I am not contesting at all that the Game is entirely Unhistorical.

[1MajorKoenig]

20 minutes ago, AndyHill said:

Let's start with a simple why. The fact that CVs are warships doesn't mean they belong in an arcadeish game that focuses on surface gunships. Especially since history buffs like us certainly know what they did to naval combat in reality. Also as a history buff I'm naturally offended by the extremely hollywoodish way carriers are portrayed in game; in reality carriers and surface ships didn't coexist in battles like they do in this game. It would be far more realistic to have separate matches with major fleet carrier operations and perhaps AI gun ships and separate battles for gunship vs gunship combat. Just like reality.

 

Dude are you pulling my leg? 

 

Of course you can make a game about Naval warfare and only implement Patrol boats. But it will suck and nobody will play it and you need bots to fill up your rounds. Ah wait that happened to some Einsteins thinking you don’t need Warships in a Warships game. A warships game without Iowas, Shokakus and Enterprises just suck and nobody will buy it. Simple as that. 

 

Btw I much rather think you need your very special little Pink Pony Mode only with selected ships. 

 

Why do I need to explain to you why Carriers should be part of a WW2 Naval game?! 

[Sunleader]

53 minutes ago, WynnZeroOne said:

I know. Except, it's never been an argument, it just observations. I don't need to argue, I can choose to play or leave.

 

 

I'm gonna carry on doing that. Playing. Confident that just like February when people started declaring the death of the player-base it simply didn't happen, nor has it. Not i Feb, not in March, nor April, nor May.

 

If I start disliking it, I'll spend my free time on something else. What's your plan once the reworks permanence sinks in?

 

 

 

Your Choice.

I prefer to complain and try to make them change things when I dislike it.

 

Cook of a Restaurant said something good there.

 

He told me. That the worst Customers are the ones which just pay their tab and leave when they disliked it.

 

A Customer that who disliked it and complains and tells us whats wrong. Means we can change something and next time he comes he might like it better.

A Customer which disliked it but just Pays and Leaves will then often not come back while we wonder why.

 

 

As for Predictions.

This wont kill WoWs Playerbase.

There is no real Alternative right now.

So it takes alot to really kill the Playerbase.

What will happen is that slowly CVs will be nerfed into oblivion.

Then the sides of who is complaining and who is defending will change.

 

 

Thats why I am Complaining about the System.

Because nerfing CVs till they are no longer a threat wont fix anything.

It only shifts the problem around.

 

 

But hey.

I look forward to seeing you guys again in some Months.

Because its very likely that once CVs have been nerfed down.

You will be much more amicable to my complains about the System ;)

 

 

 

Of course alot of the guys currently siding woth me will then be taking your spot of denouncing me *gg*