CV Rework Discussion

[Procrastes]

14 hours ago, Seinta said:

Maybe you need RNGesus blessing on Ryujo's rocket planes, but at tier 8+ you get enough rockets to take a good chunk of HP every pass or at worst, never miss.

This has been my experience as well.

 

I suck mooseballs in any CV. And we're not talking about a young and frisky moose, here, one that's in his prime - but an old, shrunken specimen with barely enough coordination to qualify as awake. And yet I still regularly land at least 5-7 rocket hits per attack on a destroyer, when I'm in my Enterprise Hellcats. I just point and press the trigger, and BOOM!!! - there goes the neighbourhood. Any attack that easy to pull off, is too easy - period.

 

It should be acknowledged that all my Enterprise games so far, have been in co-op mode.* I suspect that it would be a fair bit harder to hit a destroyer driven by a human player that was actively trying to dodge. But there is a limit to what any destroyer captain can do, to avoid a blast from an airborne shotgun that is this easy to aim to begin with.

 

 

* When it comes to CV:s above tier IV, I have so far only played them in co-op matches or scenarios. The reason being that I suck mooseballs in any CV etc etc, and I want to be able to score hits with at least some measure of regularity before I try out such a game-impacting ship class in random battles.

[Iannis_3]

19 hours ago, black_falcon120 said:

Btw guys does anyone know anything about the big I had?

Remove completely CVs from the game.

[El2aZeR]

5 hours ago, Procrastes said:

And yet I still regularly land at least 5-7 rocket hits per attack on a destroyer, when I'm in my Enterprise Hellcats.

 

Enterprise RFs are the best ones in the game, being both devastatingly effective and easy to use.

Others aren't nearly as consistent nor forgiving. Trying to use Midway HVARs against DDs e.g. is usually going to end in failure.

[black_falcon120]

3 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

Enterprise RFs are the best ones in the game, being both devastatingly effective and easy to use.

Others aren't nearly as consistent nor forgiving. Trying to use Midway HVARs against DDs e.g. is usually going to end in failure.

Isn't the midway strictly better than the lex, i seem to do ok against DDs with HVARs in that?

[Mad_Dog_Dante]

9 minutes ago, black_falcon120 said:

Isn't the midway strictly better than the lex, i seem to do ok against DDs with HVARs in that?

No the Midway aim circle is huge and round . Lex was my fav silver CV. I had to really get used to Midway and am still learning how to play it. Way different. Bit boring if you start to play it 'right'. In the Midway I use bombers vs destroyers now.

[El2aZeR]

10 minutes ago, black_falcon120 said:

i seem to do ok against DDs with HVARs in that?

 

The issue is the gigantic dispersion and long reengage times. If you can actually catch DDs they'll do the job just fine barring intervention from RNGesus.

[AndyHill]

I was told to adapt so I did. It took a bit of thinking, but eventually I figured out the best way to adapt to the carrier-infested meta:

 

Now that I'm an officially appointed ultimate expert of all things CV - according to WG's infallible algorithms, no less - I have a few things to say about the situation.

 

When you're flying above the battle, it's kind of entertaining at times. I have to admit I was absolutely drunk on power more often than not; it's so relaxing to play carriers, when the worst possible outcome is a mediocre game and a loss. When I did several blunders in a row (for the sake of experimentation only, of course), the kind that would've each sent me to port instantly in any other kind of a ship, I was sometimes forced to send out Midway torp planes. Darn, that's rough.

 

Up there it even sometimes felt that there was some balance in the game. The enemies huddled together, making it very frustrating to try to strike them and I even had some relatively low damage games because of that and felt outplayed.

 

In reality, that's far from the truth, though. The most frustrating games were against almost completely combat-ineffective blobs, which my team ran over promptly. Ships hugging an AAA cruiser were flanked and massacred pretty regularly, because they were not setting up crossfires or going into aggressive positions like my teammates sometimes did (and were punished for doing the right thing by the enemy CV). When at the start of the match I flew to where DDs were supposed to be and found them, it was a win for me. When I didn't find them where they were supposed to be, it was a win for me (or my team, to be precise). 

 

Even though I am now officially the highest authority on carriers, I wasn't actually very good at playing them. Especially I made a complete mess of playing the Haku, I couldn't hit ship with the bombs, rockets were a bit clumsy too and my torp runs were basically an air horror show. So I decided to try to just screw over anyone I could as hard as I could.

 

And I did. When I found good players in DDs doing what they were supposed to do, I went after them full tilt. And screw them over I did. I managed to disrupt their play so badly and so easily (remember I was doing this because I'm not the kind of a carrierist who can do anything else) that I actually got a pretty decent win rate in the Haku (could be small numbers problem, though, less than 40 games). 

 

The Midway was just broken. I have 10k+ games, all TX ships in the port and my stats are decent-ish. After about 65 games in the Midway, my damage record is a Midway game (interestingly enough, it was previously a Taiho game) and it's my highest damage ship by a reasonable margin. I kind of suspect I might have done more spotting as well than the second highest average damage scorer (Conqueror) and the K/D ratio might be rather high as well. You could say that the midway isn't exactly balanced, but what's really the problem is the whole concept. Also I basically had the winrate of a bot on the Mid so my opponents must have done even better.

 

The biggest effect my carrier adventures had was basically the death of any interest in playing other kinds of ships. I'm a relatively peaceful kind of a person, but given the choice between playing the apex predator or hapless prey, I can't even begin to imagine why anyone would choose the latter. Earlier I felt a lot like a victim when attacked by a carrier, now I know for sure. And the carrier gameplay isn't that intriguing to keep me in this game for much longer, so it really doesn't look good.

 

What WG really, really need to do right now:

1) Remove carriers with a hotpatch

2) Reintroduce the carriers in a PvE event at Halloween, make them insanely powerful, fast and fun to play before...

3) ...releasing a new, separate Carrier Battle game mode where CVs can fight each other and AI fleets. Funnily enough, this would be the historical option as well, so it's win-win, isn't it?

 

Don't forget that this is not just any random rambling, but the opinion of an officially WG-certified carrier specialist expert.

[El2aZeR]

42 minutes ago, AndyHill said:

Now that I'm an officially appointed ultimate expert of all things CV - according to WG's infallible algorithms, no less - I have a few things to say about the situation.

 

Nah, since you're now an expert at playing CVs you will be relentlessly ignored.

Just like the rest of us over the past 3 years.

 

I'm afraid you shot yourself in the foot there mate. 

[howardxu_23]

Well aft should increase AA range again, bro says he is unable to provide AA support to a podvoisky because it will end up taking him within 12km range of the nearest bb, old aft could have at least allowed 14km distance. Also if you want to provide aa cover you do have to sail very close together, which means turning about and torps can be a serious issue.

 

also DFAA should at least have a way to panic planes, or do a form of panic effect, in addition to the increased damage. I suggest a massive debuff to all aim times of attack planes while being in range of the AA with DFAA active. 

[DFens_666]

52 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

Nah, since you're now an expert at playing CVs you will be relentlessly ignored.

Just like the rest of us over the past 3 years.

 

I'm afraid you shot yourself in the foot there mate. 

 

Maybe i can do it?... Maybe?

Hmm probably not, ive played them in operations

[El2aZeR]

33 minutes ago, howardxu_23 said:

Well aft should increase AA range again

 

Funny thing about increasing AA range: You might be ing yourself over.

 

Because the deadliest AA is usually your mid range. Long range is for the most part neglectable (aka even if you had range it wouldn't do much to cover your allies), while increasing the range of your short range AA would make aircraft capable of turning and attacking you inside it, completely neutering your mid range AA for the most part.

 

Aka a significant range increase would actually be a pretty harsh AA nerf.

[howardxu_23]

39 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

Funny thing about increasing AA range: You might be ing yourself over.

 

Because the deadliest AA is usually your mid range. Long range is for the most part neglectable (aka even if you had range it wouldn't do much to cover your allies), while increasing the range of your short range AA would make aircraft capable of turning and attacking you inside it, completely neutering your mid range AA for the most part.

 

Aka a significant range increase would actually be a pretty harsh AA nerf.

Never actually thought of it that way :P so how about aft increases range and allows some aa overlap, as in the minimum ranges of the AA stays the same, but the maximum range goes up.

[AndyHill]

I never said I was any good at playing them, I just know everything there is to know about carriers now.

[El2aZeR]

6 minutes ago, AndyHill said:

I just know everything there is to know about carriers now.

 

Which inherently disqualifies you.

Because "you are too skilled and knowledgeable to judge" or something along those lines was the official response once I believe.

 

But hey, plenty of other players to share this misery with, even if most of them have left for greener pastures. :)

[Mad_Dog_Dante]

3 hours ago, AndyHill said:

I was told to adapt so I did. It took a bit of thinking, but eventually I figured out the best way to adapt to the carrier-infested meta: CV main

The biggest effect my carrier adventures had was basically the death of any interest in playing other kinds of ships. I'm a relatively peaceful kind of a person, but given the choice between playing the apex predator or hapless prey, I can't even begin to imagine why anyone would choose the latter. Earlier I felt a lot like a victim when attacked by a carrier, now I know for sure. And the carrier gameplay isn't that intriguing to keep me in this game for much longer, so it really doesn't look good.

This. 100% this.

[Hundigo]

What surprised me most, is that the players that plays them and have the highest results with , they self admit their's something wrong with the CV rework. Even the players have the 'skills',  have even 'unicum' status, they are still honoust about the CV's in the game. 

 

What I don't understand that WG self doesn't know it or pretend they doesn't know it. It seems they worked 1 year on the rework, and  had a few months 'testserver' and after the first week on the Meta, they had already to do a "hotfix". Several others followed and still it isn't final.  Even now with the announcemnt of 08.04 and the plans they have with it;  Players like you AndyHill and like El2Azer , like Love & Peace,Europizza  and some others can immediatelly point out what the result would be. Even just the description of it it is enough and these  players knows exactly what the result would be in the game.  I don't understand that WG team self can never figure it out what the effects would be. It's like WG is self never able to see the results / effects on the game self with all their updates. It's like, we have done something, and now players, show us what we did wrong so we can try to fix it. But we are not in a hurry to fix anything, but that's  our  policy 

 

I self play recently also the CV's now, policy of mine is;  " if you can't beat them, join them "  It's like you have no other choice, so I followed. And I shall see what it gives in the future. With the CV you can upset all the other "skilled" players, just to be there in the game; You self as CV doesn't has to be good, your presents is enough to upset and turn around all the other skilled players in the game. 

[black_falcon120]

11 minutes ago, Hundigo said:

What surprised me most, is that the players that plays them and have the highest results with , they self admit their's something wrong with the CV rework. Even the players have the 'skills',  have even 'unicum' status, they are still honoust about the CV's in the game. 

 

What I don't understand that WG self doesn't know it or pretend they doesn't know it. It seems they worked 1 year on the rework, and  had a few months 'testserver' and after the first week on the Meta, they had already to do a "hotfix". Several others followed and still it isn't final.  Even now with the announcemnt of 08.04 and the plans they have with it;  Players like you AndyHill and like El2Azer , like Love & Peace,Europizza  and some others can immediatelly point out what the result would be. Even just the description of it it is enough and these  players knows exactly what the result would be in the game.  I don't understand that WG team self can never figure it out what the effects would be. It's like WG is self never able to see the results / effects on the game self with all their updates. It's like, we have done something, and now players, show us what we did wrong so we can try to fix it. But we are not in a hurry to fix anything, but that's  our  policy 

 

I self play recently also the CV's now, policy of mine is;  " if you can't beat them, join them "  It's like you have no other choice, so I followed. And I shall see what it gives in the future. With the CV you can upset all the other "skilled" players, just to be there in the game; You self as CV doesn't has to be good, your presents is enough to upset and turn around all the other skilled players in the game. 

It’s only a few players who can ‘break CVs’, the lex averages 53k damage a game, which is hardly game breaking, I’m averaging about 60, but I get the odd monster game (183k today) but it isn’t representative.  The economy from them is not as good, and in 20k experience I can get a midway, I don’t think I’ll get much change from 30 million silver, and I hear that people struggle to break even with a Lexington without premium.

 

the one thing I will say, is that carrier play isn’t as deep as the other classes.  If games are close, you can feel like pawns in a chess game if the carriers know what they’re doing and are top tier.  There is almost no counterplay apart from death balling, and even that breaks late game.  Tbh that’s why I like carriers I was getting bored of normal gameplay and I like the feel of them.

[AndyHill]

The main thing is I can't imagine any conceiveble way of making carriers balanced or even not-insanely-frustrating for everyone else and game breaking for the meta. What we have in game right now is a fundamentally broken system that will ruin the game completely, given half a chance. Of course claims about such a complicated system being completely unfixable need to be taken with a grain of salt, since they really are quite hard to actually prove.

 

However, judging by WG's actions so far, they have absolutely no clue on how to fix the situation and probably not even how the game itself actually works (which is quite scary when you think about it), so even if the carriers could theoretically be modified to fit the game and balanced, WG certainly never will. And if you dig into it just a little bit, you'll quickly notice that the current implementation of carriers is built kludge upon a kludge with embarrassingly bad design choices piled one on top of another. They either did a botched job due to extreme time and resource constraints or simply could not get it to work properly no matter how much resources they threw at it.

 

The only option left is to remove them and only reintroduce carriers if they can by some miracle absolutely certainly be a positive contribution to the game (being in a game mode of their own would work).

[ThePopesHolyFinger]

On 5/5/2019 at 9:14 AM, Panocek said:

Camrade Yuro to the rescue

 

tl;dw use invulnerability and speed boost period after dropping payload to bypass as much AA as possible, works with dive bombers only, as rockets/torps have too long arming distance

To recap:

CV's can exploit this "slingshot drop" where they are immune to much AA.
CV's can instantly recall aircraft if they think they might get damaged.

Cv's can magic a flight of fighters out of thin air to spot things these newly produced "aircraft" have seen.
CV's can benefit dropping torps on nothing, miles from any target, to benefit from extra aircraft on their deck.

CV's and WG are cretinous

 

 

 

 

Are there any other exploits non CV players are completely pissed off about?

[El2aZeR]

20 minutes ago, DB2212 said:

Are there any other exploits non CV players are completely pissed off about?

 

Depends on how many they know I suppose? 

[Akula971]

2 hours ago, AndyHill said:

The main thing is I can't imagine any conceiveble way of making carriers balanced or even not-insanely-frustrating for everyone else and game breaking for the meta. What we have in game right now is a fundamentally broken system that will ruin the game completely, given half a chance. Of course claims about such a complicated system being completely unfixable need to be taken with a grain of salt, since they really are quite hard to actually prove.

 

However, judging by WG's actions so far, they have absolutely no clue on how to fix the situation and probably not even how the game itself actually works (which is quite scary when you think about it), so even if the carriers could theoretically be modified to fit the game and balanced, WG certainly never will. And if you dig into it just a little bit, you'll quickly notice that the current implementation of carriers is built kludge upon a kludge with embarrassingly bad design choices piled one on top of another. They either did a botched job due to extreme time and resource constraints or simply could not get it to work properly no matter how much resources they threw at it.

 

The only option left is to remove them and only reintroduce carriers if they can by some miracle absolutely certainly be a positive contribution to the game (being in a game mode of their own would work).

Everything is working as intended. Not from a game play perspective, but from a business one. Prior to the rework, you'd see very few carriers. As a product line it was for wargaming a poor investment in time and money, with probably a low return on investment. After the rework, loads of people are now playing them, two in most games, lots in the queue. Lots of Captains have been retrained for gold, lots of hours spent in game for the UK carrier events, lots of loot crates sold, cammo's bought, signals bought and modules changed. For them Christmas has come again! and to to top it off, the Napkin navy gets ships that never existed!

 

This is what they do. Introduce an O/P premium or a new slightly O/P line with power creep, and as above the cash rolls in.  ~~I expect the CV fix to appear once the revenue has peaked on that line. They knew exactly what they are doing. The average Joe views everything from a game play viewpoint. It is primarily a business, a successful business based in Cyprus. Everything they do is calculated to try and generate income.

 

As the doctor said "The more we do to you, the less you seem to believe we are doing it"

[Sowdar]

The WoT branch has learned, i can just hope the WoWs branch follows suit or i have to return to wot, carriers are just the bane of fun. Its like playing chess against someone that can remove a piece every 5 turns.. it is challenging up to the point where it gets anoying.

 

[lees_69]

I think the simple fact it's a relief and quite exciting when there isn't any WG inflicted cancer in the match is a sign of how s4it the game has become. WG won't see another penny from me till this garbage is sorted... IThe game is a misery half the time (3/4 really) now...

[Kathapalt]

I bet they do the design and balancing in wows as they do in WoT.

Nobody in the dev&balance team plays the game, they follow statistics only.

 

This explains why they are clueless about the affect cv rework did to the meta, also why the "balancing" takes so long time as it takes time for the rework statistics to pileup.

Even then there is the WG style " well we knew its over performing or broken, but  not so many player play it so its ok"

 

The change comes only when the situation becomes really dire, for example WOT had 10 arty +5 tanks vs 10 arty +5 tanks constantly or if the money flow dips too much.

Now they are milking the CV cow and waiting that maybe people get bored to CV play and the CV player amounts gets low and thus the CV problem "gets fixed" by itself.

 

 

 

[Yedwy]

7 hours ago, DB2212 said:

To recap:

CV's can exploit this "slingshot drop" where they are immune to much AA.
CV's can instantly recall aircraft if they think they might get damaged.

Cv's can magic a flight of fighters out of thin air to spot things these newly produced "aircraft" have seen.
CV's can benefit dropping torps on nothing, miles from any target, to benefit from extra aircraft on their deck.

CV's and WG are cretinous

 

 

 

 

Are there any other exploits non CV players are completely pissed off about?

Using slingshot to scout the position of the entire enemy team in like 30s without losing a single plane in the process and even landing an odd hit with bombs in the process?