Jump to content
Customer Support Maintenance Read more... ×
Sign in to follow this  
Amaterasu_Regale

IJN Torpedo Boats are useless.

19 comments in this topic

Recommended Posts

Players
194 posts
2,239 battles

Abysmal guns for torpedoes that are only marginally better than the offerings of Pan-Asian and American Destroyers, which have actual guns instead of pop guns with unreasonably long reload, ridiculous turning times and low damage. Adding onto the fact that torpedoes are by far the worst form of weapon in the game unless dropped from an Aircraft, being so unbelievably inconsistent that you may as well forget about actually being able to torpedo anything. Being able to stealth-fire torpedoes is highly overrated when you can only fire off one set of torpedoes every few minutes, and all TRB does is make your spread bigger. Moreover, up until the higher tier IJN Destroyers you get the unenviable choice of being unable to stealth-fire for torpedoes that are roughly the same speed as American offerings at the same tier, or Stealth-Fire Torpedoes that are slow as continental drift and are thus only capable of hitting BBs or the most inattentive Cruisers at anything but point blank range. Shiratsuyu and Akatsuki are passable but still have the problem of being a pony with only one trick and not doing it better to the degree that makes them worth playing. By Kagero the torpedo ranges are still unacceptably short for what is supposed to be a line of torpedo destroyers. 10 km torpedo range in a ship that will quite often see tier 10 games. That's almost getting into the radar ranges of some cruisers. There's simply not enough space to get into range, fire your torpedoes, hit TRB, wait several seconds and fire off your second spread and get out before you get hit by radar and focused down. The fact it takes up until Yugumo for the Imperial Japanese Navy to get Torpedoes that go further than 10 km is absurd. If there was one thing the IJN was known for, it was the Long Lance torpedo. One of, if not the best Torpedo of WW2. Yugumo is pretty much a mid to late war design by Japanese standards, yet is fielding torpedoes that would be considered average for the early or even pre-war period. It's simply anachronistic to have to wait until Yugumo to even get decent torpedoes, and even then it's only on the final hull. Compare this to Fletcher, which has 10.5 km torpedoes with shorter reload, 1 knot slower and much lower damage, but having gun performance so many magnitudes better than the Yugumo that it's not even in the ballpark of considering the Yugumo.

 

 Shimakaze, the supposed ultimate in Japanese Torpedo Destroyer design, has to choose between three sets of Torpedoes: 20 km range torpedoes that take half a century to reload, are slow, and due to the way torpedoes spread are likely to have several convenient Battleship sized gaps in just in case the idiot in the Kurfurst on the other side of the map didn't realise he was under torpedo attack. Don't worry, he can heal all the damage back anyway. Next the Type93 Mod. 3 torpedoes, which are the same as the Yugumo torpedoes. These aren't bad torpedoes, but why are they the best option for a Tier 10 torpedo Destroyer? These are only slightly better than the stock Gearing torpedoes, and outright weaker than the Gearing's Mk.17 torpedoes, the Yueyang has fasrer reloading, longer ranged DWTs that also come with an insane gunboat that can equip a radar or a better smoke screen than the offerings of all IJN Destroyers. Even the Z-52 has only marginally worse torpedoes stuck to a package of nice guns and the ability to sweep capture circles. Shimakaze has, by far, the worst guns of all Tier 10 Destroyers and is given only slightly better in some cases worse torpedoes than all of it's counterparts. It doesn't have a radar like Yueyang, hydro like Z-52, ridiculous rate of fire like Gearing and Yueyang, great guns and speed of the Khabarovsk and to rub salt in the wound, the IJN gunboats tend to do torpedoing things better as they can actually fight back if they get detected. Shimakaze just has to run like a deer in headlights. 

 

 This is not even beginning to get into the problem that Battleships turn like 1980 drift cars, making dodging torpedoes ridiculously easy. Press A/D or W/S once and you dodge the majority of a torpedo spread. Now that Destroyer is useless for the next two or three minutes. And it's not hard to tell you're under torpedo attack, with the blaring alarm, huge flashing indicators and a guy screaming there's torpedoes coming at you. Even the most idiotic of Battleships can dodge most torpedoes fired at them. A solution? Make IJN Torpedo Boats have a unique feature in that their torpedoes are far more stealthy and don't leave bubble trails, don't trigger the torpedo warning alarm, and are given an indicator only to allies. Then the balancing of giving them the longest reload would make sense and be somewhat fair. Also maybe push the ranges out a bit so IJN torpedo boats can actually fire torpedoes comfortably. Cue Battleship whining.

  • Cool 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
194 posts
2,239 battles
Just now, ColonelPete said:

Then why do you not write about Gearing?

 

Because Gearing is at the end of a line of ships that are on aggregate better than the IJN Torpedo boats? It's not just Shimakaze that's SNAFU. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[CATS]
Players
19,989 posts
12,420 battles
  • Look at the maplesyrup stats
  • When you look at the 2 months stats you see:
  • Shira outperforming every DD except Gadjah in wins, Akatsuki outperforming Mahan in wins and showing similar performance than Maas
  • Kagero outperforming Z-23, Hysienyang and Ognevoi in wins
  • Yugumo having a similar performance to Tashkent, could use some help, but far from useless
  • Shimakaze outperforming Z-52 on wins and showing similar performance to Gearing

When you call that useless...

 

It is safe to assume that stealth boats are hit harder by radar than gunboats 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
194 posts
2,239 battles
5 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:
  • Look at the maplesyrup stats
  • When you look at the 2 months stats you see:
  • Shira outperforming every DD except Gadjah in wins, Akatsuki outperforming Mahan in wins and showing similar performance than Maas
  • Kagero outperforming Z-23, Hysienyang and Ognevoi in wins
  • Yugumo having a similar performance to Tashkent, could use some help, but far from useless
  • Shimakaze outperforming Z-52 on wins and showing similar performance to Gearing

When you call that useless...

 

It is safe to assume that stealth boats are hit harder by radar than gunboats 

 

2 month stats? A patch came out that introduced two new DDs. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[CATS]
Players
19,989 posts
12,420 battles

You can look at one week stats if you want, but the stats of new lines do not say much after such a short time.

 

And the stats you showed are a mix of ALL patches...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
2,239 posts
8,258 battles

Well, IJN torpedo boats are not in the best shape, but aren't unplayable either. Just fix the stupidly large torpedo concealment IJN has for no reason, because is plain stupid that the best irl concealed torps have by far the worst detection in the game (I'm not bringing the "muh historical accuracy", is just that to me seems pretty ironic :Smile_bajan2:)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
1,780 posts
4,488 battles
15 minutes ago, Altsak said:

Asashio is fine. :Smile_hiding:

Even as a joke, I'm tempted to downvote you for that one.:cap_viking:

  • Funny 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[POI--]
Players
5,939 posts
7,236 battles
On 9/3/2018 at 3:09 PM, Comodoro_Allande said:

Well, IJN torpedo boats are not in the best shape, but aren't unplayable either. Just fix the stupidly large torpedo concealment IJN has for no reason, because is plain stupid that the best irl concealed torps have by far the worst detection in the game (I'm not bringing the "muh historical accuracy", is just that to me seems pretty ironic :Smile_bajan2:)

Well, it's also that from a gameplay perspective, the line most reliant on torpedoes has a way harder time landing them and a longer reload. Torpedoes being unreliable is the main drawback of the whole line and ships like YY are almost an insult to Shimakaze (they sure were before the concealment buff).

 

On 9/3/2018 at 3:53 PM, Altsak said:

Asashio is fine. :Smile_hiding:

Asashio is a terrible design that is just broken. It is crap in many areas, to the point it would for example be a terrible pick in any true T8 competitive format where true coordination exists, while at the same time its reliable source of damage makes it perform better than Kagero in randoms. It shows why IJN needs a reliability buff, but not on the level of asashio and not at the cost, so it can stay relatively versatile, while not being OP.

  • Cool 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Tester
979 posts
10,425 battles

When I start a game, I always look at the comparisons in the team list as the match loads. I see so many IJN torpedo boats that don't have concealment expert for a captain skill. Most newer players have no idea of their spotted distances, and they race into a cap, fire some torpedoes, get spotted, get deleted. So many don't play smart, they don't know their turning radius, or the best angle of attack to get a devastating strike. A good IJN captain can go the whole game without being spotted (aircraft and radar excepted). You can ruin another DDs game just by keeping him spotted, you don't always have to fire either guns or torpedoes, your team can kill them. Unless they have RPF which is doubtful as they usually don't have CE, you are safe.

 

IJN torpedo boats are just fine, unless you take on an IJN Kitty or Haru.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[POI--]
Players
5,939 posts
7,236 battles
1 hour ago, Akula971 said:

IJN torpedo boats are just fine, unless you take on an IJN Kitty or Haru.

Those two have maneuverability and detection ranges that make Gearing, Yueyang, etc much more dangerous. Heck, a good Shima likely is the greatest issue for a Harugumo, because of how poor that ship dodges torps.

 

Also, is there a reason you forgot Akizuki and Harekaze (latter which likely is a larger threat)?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[GURKA]
[GURKA]
Players
3,693 posts
8,340 battles
2 hours ago, Riselotte said:

Those two have maneuverability and detection ranges that make Gearing, Yueyang, etc much more dangerous. Heck, a good Shima likely is the greatest issue for a Harugumo, because of how poor that ship dodges torps.

 

Also, is there a reason you forgot Akizuki and Harekaze (latter which likely is a larger threat)?

Shima had the worst win rates, but I guess they increased because of Harugumo and Kita xD

 

It's somehow sad, that Japanese ships counter themself. Harugumo can't even dodge the bad torpedos of Shima, while the Asashio can't torp those big ships and will just get raped by the guns xD

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[B0TS]
Beta Tester
1,789 posts
6,436 battles

When I take my Shima out I dread bumping into a Kitakaze/Harugumo as they will melt 50%+ health away before I can get torps off - and no, the spotting difference makes marginal impact as the Shima turns like a brick (but better than those 2, just).

But I still enjoy her very much, even if she can be frustrating to play at times.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Tester
979 posts
10,425 battles

For the Shima, I can get good games with both the 20Km and 8km torpedoes. Using RPF, one can saturate an area of the cap with the wall of "Skill". Knowing who and where your opponent is, is key to success, as well as knowing when to run the hell away!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[THESO]
Players
589 posts
10,907 battles
On 3.9.2018 at 12:52 PM, The_Dunk_Squad said:

Abysmal guns for torpedoes [...]

Sorry, but your whole starting post seems unappealing. You name a hypothesis in the topic and then jump directly to a lenghty summarization of arguments. A bit more structure and streamlining would be helpful.

IJN-torp boats are anything but useless. They however have become increasingly difficult and unrewarding to play.

 

Why are torpboats not competitive anymore?

 

For that there is several reasons that add up:

 

- People are aware of your tactics. That was a matter of time. A few years ago, players were new to the game and unexperienced. Now few new players start playing and the old players know the threat of torpedo bots. With a slight adjustment of course or speed you can evade a whole salvo thrown at you from 8-10km away. Not really WG's fault. It's like an old fraud scheme, that nobody buys anymore.

 

- Torping has become an unrewarding lottery. You launch a dozen torps every few minutes and if lucky get one or two hits. In the same time a light cruiser can burn down a BB getting 50k dmg.

 

- Spotting, capping, even attempted caps are not rewarded (enough). Even starting to cap or contesting a cap can throw an enemy off his game or delay points gain. A DD get little to no reward for saving his team. Not IJN-DD specific, just more pronounced, as the IJN-DD is more stealthy and has less options when not torping.

 

- Radar: Again with the radar. A blasting gunboat is not as affected as it is visible while shooting anyway and mostly too far away to be radared. Also being spotted does not help evading it's shots, whereas detection is a huge give-away for any torp attack. Radar mostly counters torpboats. Right now the only useful torpedo boats have a range of their torps of at least 10.5 km, although the only safe range is beyond russiand radar, making the Gearing and Shima the only real choices.

 

- Hydro: Not a direct threat for the torpedo boat itself, but a problem for it's torps.

 

- Catapult planes and CV planes. On certain maps (e.g. Two Brothers) a CV can just park his planes near the caps and make torping effectively and capping near to impossible. Might be less of a problem with the upcoming changes to CV play.

 

- New DD-lines: In an attempt to please the DD-players complaining about the hardships of DD-play, WG has come up with the solution to make them more gun-oriented. The ship class DD has become more of a threat, but the intra-class meta has been shifted even more to the disadvantage of torpedo-boats.

Originally, in an iChase tutorial about DDs, he drew this line about DDs being towards the extremes of torpedo boating playstyle or gunboats, the IJN line marking one extreme and russian DDs sitting on the other end, with USN-DDs close by and german DDs s bit to the middle. Now WG has extended that  line towards gunboating with the new IJN-gunboats and the upcoming RN-gunboats. A torpboat meanwhile is almost guarateed to take a beating or get deleted, if it steps on a cap, while other players expect it to jsut do that and report it if he refuses and if he gets deleted likewise, a no-win-scenario.

Even the ultimate advantage of torpboats, being better concealed, is not there anymore, as some new gunboats (e.g. Daring, Gearing with legendary mod) will have enough conealment to spot the torpboat. Technically, the torpedo boat will have an advantage of spotting the gunboat first. But to do what? Have the first shot? After 15 seconds of fighting the gunboat has made up for that and then the torpboat is going down. To flee? Two DDs running towards each other. Even a kilometer difference in spotting would not be sufficient to turn your ship around and accelerate away from the gunboat undetected. If both are running almost parallel, then maybe 0.1 km - 0.3 km might have an impact,

 

- BBs wasting you even with AP-salvos. The whole rock-paper-scissors thing is just not present anymore.

 

How does it affect the players?

 

If we put all those ingredients together, it looks very unappealing. Frankly, I mostly play IJN-torpboats in division nowadays, cause I need at least one decent cruiser near buy who cares if I run into trouble. I mean forget your team, they cannot hit and even if you F3 a cruiser, your team is too busy and you call is buried under that BB calling for support 10 times, although he is 5km behind first line.

 

Still IJN-DDs can be fun to play and do massive damage. It is just not given. Other classes can hide in smoke ans spam HE. The ijn-torpboat is the smart predator. He has map awareness, he sees the patterns in, like a lion he guesses, which ship will be isolated from the herd, he plans his apporach, he looks for the radar ships and anticipates the dead spots in the enemy defence. Of course this can be pretty disappointing many times, but the joy of this is the intelligence of your gameplay. Anybody can rain down shells out of smoke on ships, other players spot for him. It does not take a lot of brains, to do that. But players feel too, that smart play should be rewarded extraordinary. Some dedicated DD-players I know have effectively stopped playing at all.

 

What can we expect?

 

The real problem with torpedo boats is another one, a problem that sub_octavian has addressed in his presentation / interview with @MrConway on reworked CV-play yesterday: WG feels that playstyles doing massive damage and devastating strikes to a player, are contrary to what the community likes. Nobody likes to play a game, where he puts on a lot of flags and consumables, thinks about his tactics and then gets dropped in an instant by one perfect attack. That is one of the reasons, why CVs got reworked. No more crosstorps, HE bomb-TB-Combos but 3 planes out of a squadron attacking and the other ones waiting for their run. Players want to be able to make a mistake and live through it. Now you take ijn torpedo boats, a class that literally takes one shot every few minutes, gambling for all-or-nothing. If it fails, the DD player is unsatisfied. If it succeeds, that is another angry mail to WG-customer service by a BB player who gets the very situational feeling that torps are overpowered.

 

The only way to make torpboats competitive again would be to give it the means to counter some of the countermeasures, enabling it to do its devastating strikes again, which would be the opposite of what is done in the CV rework, contrary to the new philosophy of steady damage rather than instant deletions.

I can imagine WG reworking torpboats some time in the future, drastically reducing damage and flooding chance but overcompensating it by shortening reload to low tier level (less than a minute), reflecting the new way. They will never buff the jackpot, they might buff the odds.

  • Cool 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
194 posts
2,239 battles
18 minutes ago, HMS_Kilinowski said:

 

 

The real problem with torpedo boats is another one, a problem that sub_octavian has addressed in his presentation / interview with @MrConway on reworked CV-play yesterday: WG feels that playstyles doing massive damage and devastating strikes to a player, are contrary to what the community likes. Nobody likes to play a game, where he puts on a lot of flags and consumables, thinks about his tactics and then gets dropped in an instant by one perfect attack. That is one of the reasons, why CVs got reworked. No more crosstorps, HE bomb-TB-Combos but 3 planes out of a squadron attacking and the other ones waiting for their run. Players want to be able to make a mistake and live through it. Now you take ijn torpedo boats, a class that literally takes one shot every few minutes, gambling for all-or-nothing. If it fails, the DD player is unsatisfied. If it succeeds, that is another angry mail to WG-customer service by a BB player who gets the very situational feeling that torps are overpowered.

 

 

Yet they won't address the fact Battleships have been overpowered for years. Every single patch nerfs everything a Battleship deems too powerful while never addressing the other three classes. Whining BBs got Carriers effectively removed from the game. Now they are able to one shot DDs and we've been told a fix is coming "soon" which means never because it might nerf Battleships. They're the most braindead stupid class in the game but are somehow the only class allowed to make mistakes. Cruiser mispositions once and instantly dies, DD eats a torpedo or a BB AP pen and is basically out of the game. BBs allowed to be on fire for literally 3 to 4 minutes of a game and shrug it off like it's nothing whilst also one shotting everyone else. Very balanced class, definitely not over-represented at all.

 

 

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×