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Dead_Skin_Mask

New AI of bots in the coop - feedback for WG

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I have decided to write that post because I have noticed that some people started complaining a lot after recently introduced big changes in the algorithms that control bots in coop battles. As usually people with negative attitude to changes post much more feedback then those with positive, I have decided to leave here my opinion to counter them :). Would be nice if others wrote here their feedback so WG could look at this.

 

I do like the changes. Even if they killed my beloved torp nuking bot BBs (coming in DD very close to BB and sending him torps salvo) and made it pretty rare to ambush dumb bots on the "edges" of islands, I think the changes made coop more interesting and less bizarre. Suicidal bots and their chases after DDs to the other side of the map were pretty dumb. Changes brought DD's back to their roles: spotting, taking caps, stealth torping while behaviour of the bots became much less stupid. They try to keep the distance - so some already called them coward bots - but a few times I have seen them pushing (2 times directly at me sitting in a smoke, so yeah, this is nasty when you are sure they will keep far from you :) ). I am not sure yet but it seems they do that in places where they have advantage.

 

I see only one really negative result of the changes - the coop battles take longer, but rewards are still very low comparing with random. Because of the AI changes we are now getting less XP and credits per minute while playing coop then it was a few days ago. If you handle this, I am totally ok with the "coward" bots ;).

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yea. would like if there where difficulty options to the co-op with adjusted rewards.

sometimes i just want drunken ship brawls for fun rather than having to sober up.

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45 minutes ago, SkollUlfr said:

yea. would like if there where difficulty options to the co-op with adjusted rewards.

sometimes i just want drunken ship brawls for fun rather than having to sober up.

 

They why do you care for the rewards? Losing money or making it is unimportant if you are having fun right?

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that would be true if losing credits didnt result in being unable to play damaged ships until you regain credits from other game modes or lower tiers.

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8 hours ago, Dead_Skin_Mask said:

I do like the changes.

 

 

I see only one really negative result of the changes

 

I agree with you.

 

I really like 90% of the bots new "enhanced" behaviour - DD's work correctly, less ramming, capping bots, bots torp you very accurately etc however that one single negative you mention - "Bots running away leads to longer games" has a bigger impact for me than all the positive things added together and if WG could just remove this "Run Away" section of code from the new AI then Co-Op would be much more fun for me.

 

As an example of why I don't like the new Run Away AI - On Estuary it was 6x BB, 1x Cruiser and 1x DD per side and the 6x AI BB's in the North never left their spawn and 4 out of the six went even further North to border hump whilst the new "Don't Move" CV AI spawned further South and was spotted before some of the BB's were - it just lead to boring, stale gameplay which lasting far longer than necessary, heavily reducing my enjoyment of the game. 

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I did not play the game for a month now, but if that's true and something changed that pushed PvE into campfest, then one of my eyes teared up, and the other... is laughing like a maniac.

In the last year, year and a half, more and more often did I witness rather dedicated PvP players flock to PvE, which in the earlier stages of the game was much more isolated and dare I say "stigmatized".

 

...on the same page the PvE developed into extremely fast-paced rush for any possible damage (one visual example: if a newbie is sitting in a Wyoming while there is a single, god forbid two destroyers on the field knowing at least kind of what needs to be done, the guy in the slow BB might as well just quit). I don't think this will change with the "runaway"-mechanism, if other factors like targeting priority stays the same, but now the same thing just lasts longer - either that you wipe the map due to your ship choice, or that you sail for five minutes with ~23 knots on average doing f*ckall for the same exact reason.

Tl;dr I am thinking more and more about just picking up PvP again. Or, thinking about the daily chains and the "this is your job"-kind of mission designs, just play something else altogether. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

Granted, I have yet to test this out, so I'm not necessarily right for judging blindly. It might be a welcome change all around. Then again, WG liked side-steps in the past, so...

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3 hours ago, IanH755 said:

"Bots running away leads to longer games" has a bigger impact for me than all the positive things added together and if WG could just remove this "Run Away" section of code from the new AI then Co-Op would be much more fun for me.

This. ^  If I want to play PVP then I will play PvP, not "PvP-Lite" masquerading as PvE.

I would add one small addition: When torpedoes are fired from "sensible" distances, remove the ability of fat, slow bot battleships to dodge torpedoes as if they were tier 3 Destroyers.

 

2 hours ago, AkosJaccik said:

Tl;dr I am thinking more and more about just picking up PvP again. Or, thinking about the daily chains and the "this is your job"-kind of mission designs, just play something else altogether. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

NNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOO!!!!   We need the good guys to stay in the game.:Smile_honoring:

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Hello,

Thread moved due to for not being in the correct section.

 

Have a nice day! :)

 

Regards,  

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CV play has been totally broken with this change. Bot CVs will not 'use' fighters and will not move. I.E. they will launch one fighter squadron and have it orbit the CV as a CAP but will not direct that squadron to intercept incoming aircraft. God help you if you have a bot CV on your team and not good AA because you will be focused down and not have a response.

 

Most games are now island hugging long-distance gunnery affairs that favour ships with long-distance guns. Consequently BBs now fare much better whereas before they'd struggle to farm damage and kills before aggressive DD and CL players kill all the bots. It's not better it's just different. Sure, the quality of the opponents is better, and better training for Random, but if you want long duration matches against good opponents then you may as well just play Random. If you want a quick and fun kick-arse dakka-dakka pew-pew session, well, hard cheese. Tier 5 and below is now pretty unplayable; certainly not 'fun'. 

 

The new style of fighting may suit higher tier play with corresponding high alpha damage, but at low tiers it's a massacre as the AI substantially surpasses potato players. They simply can't match the more advanced requirements of good gunnery, deflection, angling, dodging, damage control, and cap contention. That's a pretty vertical learning curve to master, so the WOW refrain 'git gud' is horribly condescending to these players. Yes, there should be a learning 'curve', and players should not simply fail their way up through the tiers. If WG have two different AI profiles then the obvious solution would be to have two difficulty settings, or to leave lower tiers on the 'old' AI and use the new AI for higher tiers for the more experienced players and the more capable ships.

 

The most annoying part of all this is not the actual change but the way it has been introduced: unexpectedly out of the blue, for two days, then rolled back for another two days, and now re-implemented after the server crash.

 

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2 hours ago, DanSilverwing said:

The most annoying part of all this is not the actual change but the way it has been introduced: unexpectedly out of the blue, for two days, then rolled back for another two days, and now re-implemented after the server crash.

I agree, and just a moment ago we were switched back to suicide bots... Maybe thats WG plan, every evening bots change their tactics? ;)

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