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Caladan12

AI changes in coop?

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Has the AI been changed in coop?

What i ve noticed so far:

Bots do not blindly charge to the opposite map edge into the torps anymore

Bots change course and speed way more often and more drastically - landing USN rainbow was easy-ish before, now its more of a challenge past 10km

Bot carriers are more conservative with fighters (sometimes too much)

Bot CA/CLs actually kite half the time away from BBs and use torps better

DDs stay away from close quarters, and use island cover and torps/BBcharges more effectively - i have actually had a DD sneak up via 2 islands (2 other players had plenty of sight across them from 2 sides)on my Dallas behind island, torp me as i was moving away in 2 staggered (~5+sec) angled! torp waves (was close) and smoked up - it did not leave the smoke while i was turning/waiting for hydro cd for 30+sec - it felt fairly unreal compared to usual kamikaze DDs; i have actually seen a bot DD smoke up and shoot from smoke for prolonged period like a normal DD would do - even though i play purely coop i doublechecked if it was a bot/coop :D

Bots actively move away when outnumbered at max speed trying to outrange, making bots with torps way more of a threat

I think i might have seen a bot BB waiting for 2nd fire to repair but it might have been just a coincidence

and some more

Have i missed some patch/notes? ^^ It might al be my imagination but compared to couple of days ago coop play feels different in a much better way

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I believe there has been. I've now lost 5 times in a row at tier 2 and 3, I've not experienced anything like that before. The bots dodge most of my torpedos whereas only a couple of days ago I would hit multiple times with them. Also as the OP suggests, the bots are tactically much better than before. I think the change is for the good, 90% and higher win rates in coop as it has been up to now was not challenging enough. I will now have to relearn how the bots play - but gone are the days where it would be a fun run out to sink a few ships for therapeutic reasons.

Edited by huymog
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There is a mention about bots in the last patch note 0.7.8 and I quote;

"In Update 0.7.8, we have further improved the logic of bots in Co-op Battles. The bots will now be more responsive to the dynamic and changing situations of battle."

 

So yeah, they are different in how they fight now.:cap_rambo:

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It's a good thing that boots are significantly smarter, but I do thing WG should also adjust economy in this case. It's great if coops cease to be an auto-win now but the rewards shouldn't be counted as if the victory was guaranteed either. Coop shouldn't be too profitable but it would be a good idea to tune the economy so that it doesn't lose money any harder than it did up 'till now.

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The bots are now annoying because they flee all the time, but they are not harder to beat.

You just cannot yolo into them anymore, which takes away the tiny amount of fun this mode provided.

Only good thing is that the CV now sits in one spot instead of circling.

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Tip about the torp part, when torping the bots make sure you dont have them targeted,idk if it just me but... works for me :Smile_honoring:

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1 minute ago, Major_Damage225 said:

Tip about the torp part, when torping the bots make sure you dont have them targeted,idk if it just me but... works for me :Smile_honoring:

I found this to be more like 50/50, sometimes not targetting and not being spotted doesn't make waifubots completely oblivious to torps.

Also:

 

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id say they are testing the player base.

havent played coop lately, but eventually easy and hard more have to settle in. :)

 

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19 minutes ago, eliastion said:

It's a good thing that boots are significantly smarter, but I do thing WG should also adjust economy in this case. It's great if coops cease to be an auto-win now but the rewards shouldn't be counted as if the victory was guaranteed either. Coop shouldn't be too profitable but it would be a good idea to tune the economy so that it doesn't lose money any harder than it did up 'till now.

Coop can be profitable if you go without camo and premium consumables, even without premium. Don't think there is need for the extra gear, after all it is just bots

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4 minutes ago, nambr9 said:

id say they are testing the player base.

havent played coop lately, but eventually easy and hard more have to settle in. :)

 

I usually retreat to Coop when I start swearing in random. Relaxing no stress, no toxic chat and usual full of fun. Perfect spot to recharge

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1 hour ago, Caladan12 said:

Has the AI been changed in coop?

Without a doubt.  

 

Not only do they no longer suicially rush, they also target differently.  Very interesting change.

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1 minute ago, Culiacan_Mexico said:

Without a doubt.  

 

Not only do they no longer suicially rush, they also target differently.  Very interesting change.

Agree was out in my Furutaka a BB target me broadside on with AP instead of shooting a BB much closer but angled. Now you actual have to pay attention on who is aiming at you..

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12 minutes ago, hgbn_dk said:

Coop can be profitable if you go without camo and premium consumables, even without premium. Don't think there is need for the extra gear, after all it is just bots

Depends on tier. When I needed to play coop because I was farming Go Navy! points and couldn't play PvP, I often took my Zao with perma camo and -service cost signals, stripped of everything that would take extra credits... and I was barely breaking even. I mean, I wasn't playing with full focus (if I could I'd be playing PvP) but I wasn't just yolo-suiciding either to quickly get out of the match. If overall I was at around 0 WITH the service cost reductions AND with bots playing like suicidal idiots, winning basically every match... how much money would be going down the drain if a significant portion of these matches were defeats?

 

Anyway. The point is just to keep the economy so that people earn/lose about the same amounts overall as they would've with old bots - better rewards to offset the defeats.

 

That is, of course, assuming that @aboomination is wrong and the bots actually do prove harder to beat rather than just different and more annoying.

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55 minutes ago, aboomination said:

The bots are now annoying because they flee all the time, but they are not harder to beat.

 

This.

I rather have them rush like morons into me then to turn around, flee, sit at an island or anything else.

 

43 minutes ago, Todger_Fairmile said:

The main change I'd like to see is having OUR bots fight as well as THEIR bots.

 

Oh ye was so much fun yesterday, when i entered a coop game immediately in my shchors with 6 bots and one Musashi who sat in line for 30 secs... Ofc with CV.

In the end, i was perma focused by the CV, got pink because my bot DDs shielded the enemy Bot DDs, Musashi did NOTHING except steam the middle through and kill the enemy CV. Luckily we won, but no [edited]thanks to our idiot T9 premium Battlebaby.

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Bots in WoWs and "A.I." in general are not more than a bunch of scripts which set the rules of what the ship can and cannot do and how it can/has to behave.

It is exrtemly hard to "balance" these scripts, so that 2 or more different ones don't f*ck with each other - therefore it's rather clever (first time for everything I guess) from wargaming to "beef up" the bots over different updates. Biggest problem every Dev faces with (combat) Bots is the fact that they don't have any "survival instinct" at all nor desire to win the battle, because the most important line is usually: (simplified!!!)

 

enemy = Player

Player = f*ck it up, no matter the cost

 

That is why these little f*ckers love to suicide into you - basicly the "no cap kill all" mentality we know from WoT.

This is currently "balanced" with the Bots always aiming for your Citadelle and that they're allowed not only to preaim you but also to use the "knowledge" where you are, even if they don't "see" you. You play in their ballpark after all.

 

I didn't pay much attention to the new changes, would even dare to say that I didn't noticed them at all with the exception of the now idle Carrier. And I play a lot Co-Op at the moment.

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CV play has changed, and not for the better. CV will stay stationary throughout the battle, rather than circle around. Although I have seen them nip behind a convenient island and stay there, just not sure that was today...

 

Fighter squadron as permanent cover, loitering around their CV, sometimes outside effective AA range (Langley).

 

Bot DDs are now almost impossible to drop on; they do evasive manoeuvers if targetted (fine), and then continue to evade after the drop. Before the change they were infamous for sailing in a straight line at a constant speed.

 

Bots are now very good at ammo changes, using HE to set fires, switching to AP, and then back to HE if the fire goes out.

 

Very good at torpedo dodging without the benefit of hydro or another ship spotting...

 

It's funny, because playing co-op a lot lately I wanted to see bots using the 'cleverer' scripted actions seen in operations (like sitting in smoke to fire, rather than popping smoke as soon as detected but not slowing down at all). I didn't really notice any changes at the higher tiers because teams play more cautiously and the AI balance was good, but then working down my list of dailies and losing two games in a row at Tier 3 was quite a shock. 

 

Once people adapt to the new meta the win rate will tick back up again, I'm sure. It does mean that co-op games are taking twice as long now compared to the previous, more simple, arcade shooting gallery. Heck, comparing some players to bots would now be a compliment!

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I'd like to think I was one of the first ones to notice the AI had changed on the previous ptr; it wasn't mentioned in the test patch notes. I noticed it when a dd did not move out of his smoke, but stayed inside to shoot.

 

However, on live, I honestly can't tell any difference between today and -say- 2 months ago. Unlike ptr, they drive out of smoke again, they do not use sonar/radar, only rarely def aa. They charge in as stupidly as always. And as of today, it seems to me bot carriers are bugged, not moving in circles, just standing still.

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Cv sitting still with fighters circling it is indeed silly - on the other hand DDs are amazing - recent loss was hilarious: every lemming went left and right leaving middle empty and CV behind as usual and red DD just sailed through the middle and sat in base capping it for 2+minutes; it didn't go out of the cap, as they usually do chasing something, nor did it go after CV which was actively dropping it and sat like 12km away - no amount of pinging or chat could persuade either of our 2 cruisers to turn back and reset the cap as they fixated on opposite side of the map just like old bots - so we lost in 5 min flat to a red DD fishing in our base :Smile_teethhappy:

another match was red DD avoiding combat and outcapping our lemming train with frightening efficiency - went completely unspotted to our base capped it while we were busy fighting the rest and capped 3 bases total out of 4 by the time we were done with the rest of the  bots - with cyclone coming in people suddenly realised they better split up to grab the all the bases that were all red for some reason :Smile_amazed: - that same lastmanstanding DD was killed by Atlanta as it was camping/sneaking up on the BB that was sailing right into his torps into a cap :Smile_ohmy:

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I like the changes and it's certainly made things a bit more interesting.

 

The only thing I would say, is the bots change their speed far more often than I have ever seen a player do in pvp.

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Just saw a bot DD long range torping a retreating CL (almost successfully) smoking up and smoke firing him to near death as he was turning around - poor guy had to blind fire the bot DD in attempt to survive - the second it was proximity detected it accelerated out of smoke away from us and died shortly after but not without leaving us both with :Smile_ohmy::cap_wander: feeling :D

I see people suddenly grouping up, smoking teammates up, focus firing??! what is going on :D

Decided to test new AI on bot Boise - popped out of smoke launched torp spread and got nuked immediately in 2 salvoes in fubuki - bot took no time to switch targets to me: ~1 sec (it was firing at CL behind me before) - it couldnt/didnt want to dodge my torps from 5km though which is surprising after i just seen NM slowing down rapidly and then speeding up/turning successfully past farraguts staggered torps (~5 sec delay spreads next to eachother) from 5 km as well

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1 minute ago, Caladan12 said:

Just saw a DD long range torping a retreating CL (almost successfully) smoking up and smoke firing him to near death as he was turning around - poor guy had to blind fire the bot DD in attempt to survive - the second it was proximity detected it accelerated out of smoke away from us and died shortly after but not without leaving us both with :Smile_ohmy::cap_wander: feeling :D

I just imagined how coop would look if most bots were normally playing as usual... and every other match there was ONE special bot not conforming to charge-forward-and-die tactics. People would be going mental :Smile_teethhappy:

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Couple of times today I ve seen bots forming mini battle groups 1-2 BBs 1-2 CL/CAs and a DD or two - they grab caps, deploy smoke and defend them fairly successfuly - bot DDs are not stingy with torps and incoming to the cap you have angled BBs, CLs from hell dodging your shots and torping together with DDs ready to charge your behind :D - a welcome change from braindead bots (shame bot CVs are all out of fuel atm) - i have actualy seen smokefiring player DDs being torped by bots out of nowhere - boooooom! :cap_fainting:

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1 hour ago, RottenBit said:

Bots are better than some Players now.

 

Some?

More like most.

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