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That_Other_Nid

The new IJN gunboats

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So, been playing Akizuki and Kitakaze since the last patch and all I can say is WTF wargame?

 

Is it fun to do 49K damage to a lion in an Akizuki while sailing between caps? Sure is. 40K damage to a bow on Yamoto in under a minute in a kitakaze? Also yes. 

 

Is it balanced though? For high tiers, kinda. They are big, fat, slow, targets for the most part, and any cruiser should demolish them with impunity from beyond 8km. They are good, but not stunning, in caps versus other DDs. Huge DPS but vulnerable to torpedoes and with worse detection than other DDs at the tier.

 

Are they less broken than Gadjah Mada at Tier 7. Yes.

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31 minutes ago, That_Other_Nid said:

So, been playing Akizuki and Kitakaze since the last patch and all I can say is WTF wargame?

 

Is it fun to do 49K damage to a lion in an Akizuki while sailing between caps? Sure is. 40K damage to a bow on Yamoto in under a minute in a kitakaze? Also yes. 

 

Is it balanced though? For high tiers, kinda. They are big, fat, slow, targets for the most part, and any cruiser should demolish them with impunity from beyond 8km. They are good, but not stunning, in caps versus other DDs. Huge DPS but vulnerable to torpedoes and with worse detection than other DDs at the tier.

 

Are they less broken than Gadjah Mada at Tier 7. Yes.

I'm having a bit of a problem with your post. Mainly... What point are you trying to make?

 

You open with "WTF wargame?". Well, fair enough, that's a standard opening for a rant. But then you elaborate that the ships in question are fun; well, that alone seems ok since ships should be fun, but maybe your point is that they're brokenly OP? But no, you proceed to claim that they have several downsides that make them balanced. So... well, here we're back to my question: what's your point? Why do you write "WTF" if - according to your analysis - everything is in order? What is the purpose of this thread's existence? :cap_hmm:

 

Are you complaining that WG failed to provide you with a reason to complain?:Smile-_tongue:

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Those ships seem broken though, that rof combined with the number of guns is insane.. (Gearing has the same rof but fewer guns)

 

;)

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At the same time, those ships trade in torpedo power, agility, speed, and small size for that one dpm advantage. They also have generally bad concealment for tier 9 and 10, easily outspotted or equal spotted by most other non Russian DD's, want to sit in smoke and dakka? Too bad, your ship only comes with two smokes base without superintendent or premium consumables, and the prevalence of radar at high tiers and the 'omg a smoke I gotta torp it' meta means good luck sitting in your smoke, so, open water shooting? Again, they're too fat and slow for this really, and can be easily AP penned by BB's and cruisers, or focused down very, very fast. The dpm is all they have going for them, as well as AA power, but you have to spec for that, and in doing so lose even more concealment. I think they're pretty balanced, people jsut need to learn how to deal with them. 

 

Hey, at least they have trade offs, unlike a certain other dakka dakka ship introduced to the game...

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53 minutes ago, tsounts said:

Those ships seem broken though, that rof combined with the number of guns is insane.. (Gearing has the same rof but less guns)

*fewer

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Your big issues are the prevelance of Radar as the slow speed means escaping is a challenge.  Also being a big target brings more damage.

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I just hope that some people will understand now why bbs cant push anymore.

 

He spam everywhere. At this point bb armor means nothing. Bb he can pen you, cruiser he can pen you, and now dds he can reliably pen you with crazy dmg.

 

I am waiting now for bb armor deck buff to 34mm, because without that i am just dmg piniata :fish_palm:

 

Congratulations WG. Battleships are no longer heavy tank equivalent. They are arty equivalent.

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2 hours ago, tsounts said:

Those ships seem broken though, that rof combined with the number of guns is insane.. (Gearing has the same rof but less guns)

Gearing also doesn't turn like a brick and gets defAA.

 

Though, 

2 hours ago, Reaper_JackGBR said:

Hey, at least they have trade offs, unlike a certain other dakka dakka ship introduced to the game...

Harekaze that got the buffs for free and now has the firepower of an IFHE Dallas? At least it still has very T7 hp pool, but I laugh everytime I find an opportunity to lay down the hurt on enemy cruisers.

 

Bet you were talking about Worcester though...

15 minutes ago, Oderisson said:

I just hope that some people will understand now why bbs cant push anymore.

 

He spam everywhere. At this point bb armor means nothing. Bb he can pen you, cruiser he can pen you, and now dds he can reliably pen you with crazy dmg.

 

I am waiting now for bb armor deck buff to 34mm, because without that i am just dmg piniata :fish_palm:

 

Congratulations WG. Battleships are no longer heavy tank equiwalent. They are arty equivalent.

Most T10 BBs have more deck armour than 32 mm. Only two cruisers though...

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3 hours ago, Reaper_JackGBR said:

At the same time, those ships trade in torpedo power, agility, speed, and small size for that one dpm advantage. They also have generally bad concealment for tier 9 and 10, easily outspotted or equal spotted by most other non Russian DD's, want to sit in smoke and dakka? Too bad, your ship only comes with two smokes base without superintendent or premium consumables, and the prevalence of radar at high tiers and the 'omg a smoke I gotta torp it' meta means good luck sitting in your smoke, so, open water shooting? Again, they're too fat and slow for this really, and can be easily AP penned by BB's and cruisers, or focused down very, very fast. The dpm is all they have going for them, as well as AA power, but you have to spec for that, and in doing so lose even more concealment. I think they're pretty balanced, people jsut need to learn how to deal with them. 

 

Hey, at least they have trade offs, unlike a certain other dakka dakka ship introduced to the game...

Just do what I did. Get the 3 millions main battery range module. The balistic is quite workable at 15km, and most importantly it makes shooting from 12-13km very easy. 

I geared Kitakaze like my Akizuki : PT-LS-AR-SE-SI-CE-IFHE, and Harugumo with PT-LS-AR-SI-BFT-IFHE-CE, both with range mod. I just traded SE for BFT since Harugumo got 25k base HP. SE is interesting but I wanted to makes the DPM a bit better in the tier 10 since it has 5x2 guns and I gave up the reload mod

And it works very well. The concealment is enough to catch same-tier gunboats DD easily, and the range mod allows to smoke DPM outside most torpedoes and radar range when you want to provide dakka support.

And it actually helps a lot if you want to try a kiting playstyle too. Even if Harugumo is fat and turn like a truck, the ability to dodge shell at 12+km with that DD isn't to be underestimated, especially if you pick your targets well and spam when they have their gun elsewhere. You can pretty safely engage a 10-15k HP heavy cruiser and finishes him before he does any meaningful damage to you. (Except Stalingrad and Moskva)

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17 minutes ago, Riselotte said:

 

Most T10 BBs have more deck armour than 32 mm. Only two cruisers though...

Yes and no.

 

Most have more than 32 deck BUT all have 32mm in front and back. Lets say that they have 50% 32mm and 50% more than 32mm. BUT more than 50% of this above 32mm is covered by superstructure which is 19mm which will render whatever is beneth pretty much unimportant.

 

So lets say that ALL bb decks are 25% 19mm, 50% 32mm, and SOME have 25% which is more than 32mm.

 

I dont feel much better with this 25% on some ships. Thats why bbs are arty now. Agressive bb, even wih support, is usually first one to die.

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There are smart way to be agressive with a BB. Saying you can't push because of HE sounds like bad DCP and heal management to me. And bad positioning too.

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8 minutes ago, ShinGetsu said:

There are smart way to be agressive with a BB. Saying you can't push because of HE sounds like bad DCP and heal management to me. And bad positioning too.

Oh dont worry, I know the smart way. Even 2.

 

1. Push with 80% with your team so whatever comes around will be forced to split fire and turn back.

 

2. Push with cruiser in front of you and dd in front of cruiser. Preferably 2 of each and a bb for support. And if you meet 80% of team immidietly turn back because you can be sure dd wont deploy smoke to cover you later.

 

None of the above sound as agressive play to me.

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I've watched Flamu's videos about this ship and while it looks fun it does appear to be another example of WG's obsession with rock-paper-scissors game play at higher Tiers, and in random games this must lead to enormous frustration.

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1 hour ago, Oderisson said:

I just hope that some people will understand now why bbs cant push anymore.

If a destroyer has to play around a radar cruiser, I think it's legit that a battleship has to play around a destroyer.

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16 minutes ago, invicta2012 said:

I've watched Flamu's videos about this ship and while it looks fun it does appear to be another example of WG's obsession with rock-paper-scissors game play at higher Tiers, and in random games this must lead to enormous frustration.

Rock paper scissors apply only to bb vs dd.

 

Solo bb vs solo cruiser. Cruiser will usually outspot bb and run (kite) away. And even if he will decide to fight and lose he can angle in and probably bb will lose some health. Some he pens, some fires. Cruiser gets an option to run or fight.

 

Solo bb vs solo dd. Bb vs dd doesnt get that option. Dd wil torp sole bb while unspotted. Or set smoke and dakka away (harugumo, gearing etc.) if bb decides to fight. Only option is to run away. Rushing into smoke will mean death from torps.

 

Solo ca vs solo dd. All depends on radar. Some cruisers can fight some cant (cant doesnt meen lose, they just cant win. Just stall using hydro to spot torps.)

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2 minutes ago, SeeteufeI said:

If a destroyer has to play around a radar cruiser, I think it's legit that a battleship has to play around a destroyer.

Exactly my thoughts. Although i think that radar is a bit too powerfull too. I think that range should be a % of visibility to give dd a chance to be unspotted.

 

But what you said means that there should be a cruiser between dds and bbs. And that means that bbs shoud be in second line behind cruisers or run. :cap_like:

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Beeing sort of cruiser main-ish i d say bbs beeing on a third line (behind dds and cl/ca-s) is not a problem bbs beeing 15km behind those 2 - is...

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46 minutes ago, Yedwy said:

Beeing sort of cruiser main-ish i d say bbs beeing on a third line (behind dds and cl/ca-s) is not a problem bbs beeing 15km behind those 2 - is...

Good. Because i dont remember when i was borderhugging. Usually i keep 1-2 km behind cruiser. Thats why i dont play ships with speed below 30 knots. So I can keep up with cruisers.

 

But we diviated from the topic. Harugumo is broken as it is. Basically it is cruiser without citadel. WG introduced something they didnt do with minotaur and worcester. Minotaur didnt get he because it would do what harugumo is doing now and worcester didnt get smoke for the same reason. Now harugumo has excelent dpm plus torps plus smoke plus no citadel plus concealment. One of those has to go. I am aware they have schedule to keep but schedule doesnt mean anything if you dont do your job right.

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1 hour ago, SeeteufeI said:

If a destroyer has to play around a radar cruiser, I think it's legit that a battleship has to play around a destroyer.

Sure, but the problem i have with all this "playing around" something is: it leads to very static and boring gameplay. Is that really the way WG wants to go?

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25 minutes ago, Oderisson said:

Basically it is cruiser without citadel.

Without citadel, yes - but also without heal and with half the hp. Unless a Minotaur misplays enough to be deleted on the spot, the amount of punishment she can take compared to Harugumo is like heave and earth. As far as survivability is concerned, the "light cruiser Harugumo" is absolute crap, even if she's harder to delete with a single salvo of big guns.

She makes up for that with concealment, of course - since while "destroyer Harugumo" has really crappy concealment, it's obviously not the case for "light cruiser Harugumo". But that's an advantage covering for huge weaknesses that other light cruisers don't suffer. In the end Harugumo is a strange ship that brings your team significant advantage in a 5v5 DD match, screws you over big time in 1v1 DD match and provides limited advantage/disadvantage in less extreme situations.

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37 minutes ago, _DemonGuard_ said:

Sure, but the problem i have with all this "playing around" something is: it leads to very static and boring gameplay. Is that really the way WG wants to go?

There will be nerfs coming anyways, Worcester and Harugumo hurt big ol' battleships waaaay too much.

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10 minutes ago, SeeteufeI said:

There will be nerfs coming anyways, Worcester and Harugumo hurt big ol' battleships waaaay too much

They probably do. Post war ships vs 1943 design BBs without radar will be quite messy. The ability of smaller ships to fire freely and indefinitely in Wows in unrealistic and usually leads to balancing issues. 

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7 minutes ago, invicta2012 said:

BBs without radar

You want more battleships with radar? :Smile_teethhappy:

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