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MNR1978

Friedrich der Große and secondary build!?

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Hi guys, excuse me for bothering you again, :Smile_amazed:

Today, I want to talk to you about the problem that has come up to me, maybe someone of you can help me.  I have Friedrich der Große and i build it up with focus on improve her accuracy and  faster reload plus improve her overall survival over Capitan skills with 16 point and played with her about 100 battles with that build up and that was good for me, but about 2 days ago i head to change it for secondary build, ships upgrades and Capitan skills.

But unfortunately I found it really unplayable even in the low tier match, there is a screen shot that I attached shows the 130 secondary hits on Alabama really did nothing and the more surprising is the comparison between it and Bismarck in the same tier match that I have played before (I mean in tier 8 or 9 match, when you are top tier), after that battle I asked my self maybe secondary build is some joke and Wargaming made this ship with a huge amount of ineffective secondary and very very bad gun accuracy exactly at long range, plus poor AP shell characteristics to make us have more fun to play with a fool vessel.

I found that a lot of players had a good time with her secondary build and I respect them at all cost, but that's my opinion after I have played about 16 battles with her secondary build. As I found it secondary ineffective In every respect (even against lower tier DDs) I want to ask you, really how did you play with her in secondary build, and why Wargaming doesn't make her gun more accurate exactly like heavy Cruiser Admiral Hipper and forget her secondary?

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Basicly the reason why i dont play FDG currently. Too much camping, secondaries are only usefull vs Cruisers (DDs dont receive too much damage unless they really yolo you, and BBs see your screenshot). The only threat against BBs is starting fires - and thats so heavily RNG dependant you cant count on that. Secondaries shout aim at the superstructure - not at the belt like they currently do (another point why Cruisers get shafted more, since they actually can get citadelled by those)

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32 minutes ago, aboomination said:

Well, it's HE ammunition of a certain caliber. Go figure.

You're right, but I'm feeling weak when I use HE shell against other ships exactly when I playing as a battleship. 
I have MUSASHI and I feel more power when I am playing with it don't fair about anything, no BBs and no Cruisers just bow head on and shouting APs. why I feel so anger when I am playing with F.D.G, at least they must make her guns more accurate or make it secondary more effective.

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20 minutes ago, MNR1978 said:

Hi guys, excuse me for bothering you again, :Smile_amazed:

Today, I want to talk to you about the problem that has come up to me, maybe someone of you can help me.  I have Friedrich der Große and i build it up with focus on improve her accuracy and  faster reload plus improve her overall survival over Capitan skills with 16 point and played with her about 100 battles with that build up and that was good for me, but about 2 days ago i head to change it for secondary build, ships upgrades and Capitan skills.

But unfortunately I found it really unplayable even in the low tier match, there is a screen shot that I attached shows the 130 secondary hits on Alabama really did nothing and the more surprising is the comparison between it and Bismarck in the same tier match that I have played before (I mean in tier 8 or 9 match, when you are top tier), after that battle I asked my self maybe secondary build is some joke and Wargaming made this ship with a huge amount of ineffective secondary and very very bad gun accuracy exactly at long range, plus poor AP shell characteristics to make us have more fun to play with a fool vessel.

I found that a lot of players had a good time with her secondary build and I respect them at all cost, but that's my opinion after I have played about 16 battles with her secondary build. As I found it secondary ineffective In every respect (even against lower tier DDs) I want to ask you, really how did you play with her in secondary build, and why Wargaming doesn't make her gun more accurate exactly like heavy Cruiser Admiral Hipper and forget her secondary?

 

I think you will be better off with your first build, secondary ones are out of the meta.

There are exceptions, like Grosser Kurfurst, or maybe Massachusets and high tier French BBs but I think they are the exception nowadays.

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Isn't the 1/4 pen rule only for primary batteries?

 

If the 150s follow the regular 1/6 rule, then you won't get far without IFHE.

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6 minutes ago, MNR1978 said:

You're right, but I'm feeling weak when I use HE shell against other ships exactly when I playing as a battleship. 
I have MUSASHI and I feel more power when I am playing with it don't fair about anything, no BBs and no Cruisers just bow head on and shouting APs. why I feel so anger when I am playing with F.D.G, at least they must make it gun more accurate or make it secondary more effective.

No, what was meant is that most secondaries are 105 mm, which shatter even on the 19 mm plating of DDs and only can set fires. Bismarck has the exact same configuration, but when it meets T6 ships, they do get shredded by the 105s. But on FdG, you basically hope for fires and scaring enemies. Alsace is better for that though.

Just now, Uglesett said:

Isn't the 1/4 pen rule only for primary batteries?

 

If the 150s follow the regular 1/6 rule, then you won't get far without IFHE.

It is also for 15 cm and 12.8 cm secondaries. Not the 10.5 cm ones.

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Yes, having the same issue with the FDG.  Secondary guns can score literally hundreds of hits against BBs for almost no damage.  Do find them somewhat useful against DDs as well as Cruisers.

 

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Secondary Builds are sadly useless these days, except you're only playing Co-Op or Operations.

You either have to sneak up (in a Battleship) on your victim and all Island Camper have either Radar and/or Hydro and those who to not camp simply kite you till you're burned to death.

Ironically you yourself have to become a "camper"/sniper to do "something"...

 

One advice: Don't believe people who tell you storys about these 1 in 100 games where it actually worked.

 

The real funny thing is that that what happened iRL in Naval History repeats itself here inGame!

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11 minutes ago, Mandalorianer said:

Secondary Builds are sadly useless these days, except you're only playing Co-Op or Operations.

You either have to sneak up (in a Battleship) on your victim and all Island Camper have either Radar and/or Hydro and those who to not camp simply kite you till you're burned to death.

Ironically you yourself have to become a "camper"/sniper to do "something"...

 

One advice: Don't believe people who tell you storys about these 1 in 100 games where it actually worked.

 

The real funny thing is that that what happened iRL in Naval History repeats itself here inGame!

Thank you, I agree with you 100%. but the question is, why WG don't make any change at her guns to make people feel better.

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34 minutes ago, MNR1978 said:

You're right, but I'm feeling weak when I use HE shell against other ships exactly when I playing as a battleship. 

THE SECONDARY SHELLS ARE HE SHELLS. I WAS NOT IMPLYING THAT YOU SHOULD USE MAIN BATTERY HE SHELLS.

Now do the math and re-evaluate their performance against certain targets.

Got it?

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I like the secondary builds as well. They also add better AA as a bonus. I didn't see if you took the relevant ship modules for secondary. If you go secondary go all the way and spec everything into it. When your captain has 19 points the last skill should be BFT.
The current HE spamming behind islands make secondary builds harder however. Using to optimal performance is a matter of timing. Don't rush in too early or you'll be focused out in no time without you being able to do much in return. Also you might want to consider taking expert marksman on your tier 2 skill. Secondary is automatically close combat so you'll want to have that tad faster turret traverse for those encounters. How strong secondary built: the primaries always deal the most damage.

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22 minutes ago, MNR1978 said:

but the question is, why WG don't make any change at her guns to make people feel better.

 

Because Tier IX is for almost all lines/nations unnecessary because the ships arn't that much better than Tier VIII and they don't have the prestige of Tier X. 90% of player skip Tier IX ships with Free-XP anyway.

Yes, there are usefull and good Tier IX ships but most of them are premiums... Or why do you think Wargaming did put them at Tier IX in the first place?!

 

Almost the whole german Tech-Tree needs massive rework. The secondary gimmik was nice and usefull back in 2016 and the trade for Main Gun accuracy was okay but today? Take for example Tier VII (no premiums):

 

IJN: 4x2 410mm = 8 guns

USN: 4x2 406mm = 8 guns

GBR: 1x2 & 2x4 356mm = 10 guns

FRA: 4x4 340mm = 16 guns

 

and now mighty...

 

KRM: 3x2 380mm = 6 guns

 

6 guns that can't hit a barn while inside said barn and massive reload? But hey, it has 6km torpedos!!!

 

giphy.gif

 

And don't even get me started on the DD tree... Thanks Pay-61 -.-"

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Used to have secondary builds on my high tier German BB's... No longer. Feels that the only viable ships to invest in full secondary is French BB's and Massachusetts.. Even Yamamoto's secondary feels more strong than the German right now.

That's without manual secondary skill

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Turning german secondaries to something useful is sometimes hard as rocket science. But if you manage to check which rules (1/6 or 1/4) is applied to concrete secondaries calibers and if use IFHE or rather DE. then you can farm even 100k damage by secondaries or fires caused by secondaries.

 

 

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9 minutes ago, Sigimundus said:

Turning german secondaries to something useful is sometimes hard as rocket science. But if you manage to check which rules (1/6 or 1/4) is applied to concrete secondaries calibers and if use IFHE or rather DE. then you can farm even 100k damage by secondaries or fires caused by secondaries.

 

 

IFHE is something to consider. It'd mean you'd have to either give up the extra consumable charge or BTF. Demo expert I'd advice against: full secondary will spam enough to targets to start those fires anyways.

 

Having read OP's post again I would recommend going back to primary build however. That seemed to be working much better for him.

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If you really look for secondary gamestyle. Easiest way to do it, is just getting Massachusetts. I have it and it is plain awesome, I can wreck Yamatos with those secondaries,as long as you don't go too close, and Yama has few trolls in his guns. With Massa you shouldn't go closer than 9-11km and you don't have to angle much at all, which makes it very effective. You can even shoot over the islands because secondary gun arcs are very high... it's like having your personal Mini Atlanta on your deck.... About other secondary options.... Alsace is ok and so is Republic.

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Consider dropping manual targeting for IFHE, sure you won't get to pick your target but then you also get into situation (often on purpose) where you can get both sides firing on different targets

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1 minute ago, PassTheSalt said:

Consider dropping manual targeting for IFHE, sure you won't get to pick your target but then you also get into situation (often on purpose) where you can get both sides firing on different targets

Issue is, what does IFHE do for you?

 

Manual Fire control improves the efficiency. you basically double the hit rate on your secondaries. As long as you do not have two different targets on two sides, it's pointless and even then it mostly works against large targets, as the unimproved dispersion is crap against DDs. And if you really want them to focus one specific target (like that one DD), they are bad at that too.

 

Meanwhile, IFHE increases HE pen on the secondaries. The 15 cm guns already have 1/4 pen, so pointless for them. The 10.5 cm guns have 1/6 pen and with IFHE basically become like old IFHE Akizuki guns. They will pen T8+ DDs (the targets you now cannot hit any longer) and BB superstructure (but still nowhere else on the ship). IFHE additionally then drops your fire chance on the 15 cm guns from 8% to a terrible 5% and on the 10.5 cm guns from lackluster 5% to underwhelming 4%. Losing basically over 20% of your fire starting potential in return for missing more often and still lacking the penetration to do much I consider a pretty bad deal.

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FdG is a terrible ship and secondary build on it is even worse.

Just skip it as fast as possible and use your build on GK.

 

Or better yet, starts a battleship tech tree without horribly innaccurate gun, terrible handling, extreme vulnerability to AP bomb and which requires at least some skill to perform, instead of praying RNG at each shot.

Basically, play French, US or IJN. Reliable main gunnery, decent speed and decent to great armor is everything you want.

 

As an added bonus, République is amazing when secondary specced.

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11 minutes ago, Riselotte said:

Issue is, what does IFHE do for you?

 

Manual Fire control improves the efficiency. you basically double the hit rate on your secondaries. As long as you do not have two different targets on two sides, it's pointless and even then it mostly works against large targets, as the unimproved dispersion is crap against DDs. And if you really want them to focus one specific target (like that one DD), they are bad at that too.

 

Meanwhile, IFHE increases HE pen on the secondaries. The 15 cm guns already have 1/4 pen, so pointless for them. The 10.5 cm guns have 1/6 pen and with IFHE basically become like old IFHE Akizuki guns. They will pen T8+ DDs (the targets you now cannot hit any longer) and BB superstructure (but still nowhere else on the ship). IFHE additionally then drops your fire chance on the 15 cm guns from 8% to a terrible 5% and on the 10.5 cm guns from lackluster 5% to underwhelming 4%. Losing basically over 20% of your fire starting potential in return for missing more often and still lacking the penetration to do much I consider a pretty bad deal.

Neatly ignoring the cruisers just because it suits your argument...

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9 minutes ago, PassTheSalt said:

Neatly ignoring the cruisers just because it suits your argument...

No, I'm ignoring cruisers, because at T7-10, most cruisers have at least 25 mm armour everywhere. You cannot pen that with your IFHE 10.5 cm guns, while 15 cm would have penned anyway. All you get is less fires.

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Are secondaries of FdG different from GK secondaries? The build works well for me on GK, buy maybe better guns? And also with Alsace and Republique. The amount of fires started with French secondaries is just insane.

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Just now, elblancogringo said:

Are secondaries of FdG different from GK secondaries? The build works well for me on GK, buy maybe better guns? And also with Alsace and Republique. The amount of fires started with French secondaries is just insane.

FdG has 15 cm secondaries on 1/4 HE pen and 10.5 cm dual purpose guns that have 1/6 HE pen.

GK has 15 cm guns same as FdG, but has 12.8 cm dual purpose guns instead of 10.5 cm DP guns, which also have 1/4 pen.

 

A GK without IFHE will shred any DD or cruiser that comes close, as the 12.8 cm guns have 32 mm treshold, so they go right through all the 27 and 30 mm plating at T10, while with IFHE it can pen all the 32 mm armour on BBs. Meanwhile FdGs 10.5 cm guns shatter on DDs and at best start fires.

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