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Pan European tree (premiums)

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4 hours ago, fumtu said:

 

As cruiser this ship would have less than 20k HP as cruiser so it wouldn't have HP to tank, no speed to run away and no DPM to fight back. Any BB in T3-T5 bracket shouldn't have any problem to deal with it. All those coastal defense ships are not adequate for this game, too slow, small HP pool, very limited armament. Accurate BB guns, especially at lower tiers, are not a good idea but then again if their guns are not accurate, as they have only small number of them, they would lack DPM to be fun. They would need to be very gimmicking and balanced about ton of consumables. I don't see how this ships could be good for a game. 

it's funny how you talk about HP pool like it would be some kind of real thing, in real life :Smile_teethhappy:

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Here's 3 I'd like to see, wonder what we're going to get???

 

Polish premium DDs.

ORP Piorun. Premium Gadjah tier 7-8 seal clubber, famous for brawling with Bismark. (She had 2x5 torpedoes from 1942 but would still be OP with 1x5)

6e0aefd7cd72508e6d2acea6e5af690b.png

 

ORP Orkan. Premium HMS Lightning at tier 8 (Lightning looks OP too)

d7d1ec60494ab0fc75d887ef8f927cd0.jpg

 

Dutch premiums:

Isaac Sweers. Aka the tier 8 Dutch Harakaze (better forward arcs, slightly worse torps)

A-hull could get 5 x 120mm Bofors, B-hull would get 6 x 102mm DP guns.

Sweers_1942_large.png

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1 hour ago, creamgravy said:

Dutch premiums:

Isaac Sweers. Aka the tier 8 Dutch Harakaze (better forward arcs, slightly worse torps)

A-hull could get 5 x 120mm Bofors, B-hull would get 6 x 102mm DP guns.

Sweers_1942_large.png

The A-Hull if i'm not mistaken also would come with a floatplane, not sure how that would work on a destroyer if they decide to do that though.

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So, presuming that we're looking at Dutch, Polish and Austro Hungarians only we could have:

 

III - Novara Class AH CL

IV - Ersatz Zenta AH CL

V and VI - Dutch CL of some kind (I'm tending towards Java as a Krasny Krym style T5 with all the guns, and De Ruyter as a unique T6. Tromp is probably a bit too similar to Huang He, Jacob Van Heemskerk perhaps a little too niche?)

VII - Isaac Sweers DD

VIII - Orkan DD

 

A low Tier BB would be nice... the Tegetthoff BB at IV? 

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Telling the truth it is possible to build full A-H BB tech tree from the various projects made before and after start of building of VU.

https://warshipprojects.wordpress.com/2018/02/25/austro-hungarian-capital-ship-genesis/

 

Of course it will be many "what-if" but number of projects is awsome.

 

A-H cruisers - IMHO only Zenta, Admiral Spaun and Novara classes are possible. Novaras with possible refit to 150mm.

 

Polish tree: 

Full tree of DD's with many local projects or Royal Navy and Soviet Navy warships. My bet for Piorun as premium. 

 

Dutch tree:

Possible full tree of DD's - one Admiralen class destroyer with seaplane as premium. WG pls.

Cruisers - De Ryuter - one of WWII legends should be introduced.

Java as premium too. Tromp or Jacob van Hemskerck with AA cruiser version.

 

Turkey - Yavuz Sultan Selim - world longest lived battlecruiser and true legend of the seas. DD's Kocatepe? But circumstances of sinking...

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10 hours ago, invicta2012 said:

Stord.

 

I am going to throw a massive sulk if we don't get this one

Seconded.

 

Studying a lot of modern Spanish history myself, I'd also really like to see one of the Canarias or Baleares heavy cruisers in the game. An España-class BB could make a good low-tier premium (similar design to the Turenne).

 

The Currucha-class DDs, some of which saw action in the Civil War, could work at T6, or perhaps T5 in their four-gun iteration. But I suspect WG will have possible Pan-European DDs coming out of their ears, so not holding my breath!

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I think given that they have mentioned that it will be Austro-Hungaria, Poland and the Netherlands for now, combined with the idea that I have that they will want to make a cruiser, destroyer and a battleship available leads me to believe the following:

 

1. The Błyskawica will be the destroyer, as it is already available, representing Poland.

2. Austro-Hungary has some nice early dreadnoughts available so SMS Tegethoff seems likely

3. The Netherlands has a ton of destroyers and cruisers to pick from (I do expect them to become a separate line eventually, with some BB/CV premiums) but for now it seems likely that WG will implement one of their cruisers, which I expect would be one of the mid-tier candidates like De Ruyter or Tromp class.

 

This gives WG the option to add ships as they go, and allows them to judge the customer-base/value for each market which will influence future developments heavily (a.k.a. future development will be dictated by money spent, they are a business after all).

 

I just hope that they don't try to give every nation a unique gimmick, although Dutch destroyers are interesting (for gimmick purposes) as quite a few of them carried scout planes.

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I would like them to be a proper line. Tier 3-6 as Scout Cruisers/Destroyer leaders. Smoke on IV-V-VI, floatplaneson V-VI, 1/5 Armour Pen, reasonable fire chance, moderate range, Yorck-style gun dynamics.

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On 8/27/2018 at 3:22 AM, Riselotte said:

Austro-Hungarian ship will be with high probability the Viribus Unitis or a sister ship of hers. Decent T4 BB material.

A battleship with 305 mm guns, but 12 of them in four triple turrets, having a greater range than German guns of the same caliber, and also being able to spot farther, could do well even on tier 5 or 6. Especially if we add the historically accurate forward-facing torpedo tube.

It was a very advanced ship considering its time period. Had unique strengths, but also unique weaknesses (most glaring was the heavy listing in turns which limited her speed in turns severely. Especially affected was the Szent István).

 

A ship with four triple 205mm turrets, good armor, decent speed, decent rudder speed, compact and presenting a small target, great gun range, maybe even torpedoes, only hampered by the most horrible speed drop when turning, is certainly above tier 4.

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On 27-8-2018 at 10:40 AM, RAHJAILARI said:

 

Coastal defense ship, Väinämöinen:

5b83b88c94f28_Vin.jpg.a9834dcf79c81e7c7d71f81abb070e62.jpgguns.jpg.9a1d0b5ef49c2ae1672920148f5135b8.jpg

 

Would you be offended if I'd call it Vanny?? I was able to remember the word Keskusta when i was in a city/ town. But this word not only is braking my tongue but also my eyes!

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1 hour ago, Praevasc said:

A battleship with 305 mm guns, but 12 of them in four triple turrets, having a greater range than German guns of the same caliber, and also being able to spot farther, could do well even on tier 5 or 6. Especially if we add the historically accurate forward-facing torpedo tube.

It was a very advanced ship considering its time period. Had unique strengths, but also unique weaknesses (most glaring was the heavy listing in turns which limited her speed in turns severely. Especially affected was the Szent István).

 

A ship with four triple 205mm turrets, good armor, decent speed, decent rudder speed, compact and presenting a small target, great gun range, maybe even torpedoes, only hampered by the most horrible speed drop when turning, is certainly above tier 4.

Not really. For T4, the ship would already need some improved performance on the guns, because it'd likely end up with less hp and speed than Wyoming. At T5 it'd be a joke compared to König and the rest. T6 is far beyond what this ship could handle. Goodness, imagine pitting the Viribus Unitis against the likes of North Carolina or Tirpitz. Even Gneisenau would take this ship apart no issues. Also, underwater torpedo tubes will never get modelled in the game.

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1 minute ago, Riselotte said:

At T5 it'd be a joke compared to König

Why? The König has the same caliber guns just fewer of them. And historically, with shorter range.

 

1 minute ago, Riselotte said:

Also, underwater torpedo tubes will never get modelled in the game

Why? They don't even have to model them, they would be invisible anyway.

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14 minutes ago, Praevasc said:

Why? They don't even have to model them, they would be invisible anyway.

Mostly "because they said so". Many of the ships present in the game had them, none have them in-game. Also, WG stated that they're not going to add them.

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6 minutes ago, Praevasc said:

Why? The König has the same caliber guns just fewer of them. And historically, with shorter range.

König had 28k tons full load and 350 mm belt. Viribus Unitis had 21k tons full load and 280 mm belt. König might have fewer guns, but it has a faster reload. Viribus Unitis also had a historic speed of 20 knots. For comparison, Wyoming had 27k tons full load and 279 mm belt. Viribus Unitis is just going to be low in hp and is slow. At T4, you can expect it to be like Wyoming, trading hp and 1 knot of speed for better gun performance. At T5, it would need a lot of ahistoric buffs to be competitive. And while WG is not above handing out buffs to silver ships (lol Normandie), they typically try to keep historic premiums historic (excluding ships that were never build, like Kii). I mean, something like König or Normandie got buffs to be able to fit their tier and bridge a gap. A premium Viribus Unitis has no gap to fill, there is no full line. And there likely never will be, because there's just too much paper, starting at T5 with Ersatz-Monarch and after that it'd be a whole bunch of obscure design studies or made up crap that needs ahistoric interwar upgrades to stay relevant and which basically just don't make sense. It'll be left at a nice premium ship for historic enthusiasts and at T4 the ship is very comfortable.

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58 minutes ago, Ferry_25 said:

Would you be offended if I'd call it Vanny?? I was able to remember the word Keskusta when i was in a city/ town. But this word not only is braking my tongue but also my eyes!

Maybe put in the sister ship Ilmarinen, night-and-day difference in the ease of pronunciation. Isn't the premium normally something other than the  lead ship of the class anyway?

 

They'd be weird ships to balance, maybe impossible. Maybe you could cheat a few knots on the speed side, and still give them a very tight turning circle, so you'd be very good at maintaining angles, while having strong guns for the tier. Their AA would be very strong at the low tier they'd inevitable have to be placed in -- I think the CV meta after rework might determine whether they have any place.

I'd like to see them for sentimental reasons, as Finland was a fairly prominent WW2 combatant and it's the only ship you could even half-feasibly include (unless WoWS some day goes for subs).
 

And you MUST include the "I'm a floating bush" camo.

 

camouflaged+finnish+coastal+defence+ship

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I did another comparison with the König, and I would say they are very very similar.

 

I accept that I was wrong about tier 6, but it could be well suited for tier 5, because of its similarity to König.

  • Yes, the Tegetthoff had weaker belt armor than the König. But the Kongo also had 280 mm historically (and thinner than that in-game) and is tier 5. And the Tegethoff had slightly better deck armor than the König, making long range engagements more survivable.
  • Talking about guns, let's compare the Skoda 45 K10 used by the Tegetthoff class with the SK L/50 used by the König. Not only did the Tegetthoff carry 2 more, it had
    • a longer, heavier shell, 450 kg versus 250–405 kg of the König
    • much longer range, 22 km versus 16.2 km
    • I didn't find enough reliable information about reload, but everything I've found hinted that they had very similar firing rates.
    • the only disadvantage would be a slightly higher shell arc due to a slightly lower muzzle velocity.
  • The Tegetthoff class carrier torpedo nets, I didn't find any indication of the König having them.
  • Almost 15% shorter, providing a smaller broadside target.
  • 50% of the guns pointing fore and aft, while the Köning could point her middle turret only broadside. So 6 guns with heavier shells and longer range, compared to the 4 guns of the König, when pointing your bow at the enemy. Are there any tier 5 battleships in the game which can point 6 guns forwards? Triple turrets in AB-XY configuration are usually a tier 10 feature.
  • Almost exactly the same secondary battery.
  • Talking about ahistorical buffs, the Tegetthoff class at least featured AA guns in real life when it was launched. I coudln't find any indication of the Köning having had them.

Comparing to the König and the Kongo, any ship of the Tegetthoff class could make a solid tier 5 ship. Maybe except the Szent István, which had some balancing problems in turns and less torpedo protection due to not having torpedo nets.

 

Yes, the König will remain a better brawler due to slightly better speed and better belt armor. But in any other role the Tegetthoff could be as good, or maybe even better than the König. In long range engagements I would bet she would be superior to the König.

 

Also, considering that tiers below 5 usually can't take part in daily missions, or other special challenges, while tier 5 ships almost always do, I would say I will probably never waste any doubloons, coal/steel, or real money on ships of any less tier than 5.

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22 minutes ago, Praevasc said:
    • I didn't find enough reliable information about reload, but everything I've found hinted that they had very similar firing rates.

 

According to Navweaps.com :

 

Tegetthoff class :

 

 

3 rounds in first minute with ready ammunition, 1 to 2 rounds per minute afterwards

 

König class :

 

 

2 - 3 rounds per minute

 

 

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8 minutes ago, K82J said:

3 rounds in first minute with ready ammunition, 1 to 2 rounds per minute afterwards

 

This begs for a consumable some French ships have, to stay at 1.5 rpm and being able to double it for a short while with a consumable :)

 

(also, 1.5 shots per minute from 6 guns with heavier more damaging shells and longer range would not be worse than 2.5 shots per minute from 4 guns when facing bow to bow)

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4 hours ago, Praevasc said:
  • Yes, the Tegetthoff had weaker belt armor than the König. But the Kongo also had 280 mm historically (and thinner than that in-game) and is tier 5. And the Tegethoff had slightly better deck armor than the König, making long range engagements more survivable.

König had 350 mm. König has 350 mm ingame. And deck armour counts for crap in BB combat ingame. It only counts for something if it is over 32 mm, thus shattering HE. And guess what König can already boast...

4 hours ago, Praevasc said:
  • Talking about guns, let's compare the Skoda 45 K10 used by the Tegetthoff class with the SK L/50 used by the König. Not only did the Tegetthoff carry 2 more, it had
    • a longer, heavier shell, 450 kg versus 250–405 kg of the König
    • much longer range, 22 km versus 16.2 km
    • I didn't find enough reliable information about reload, but everything I've found hinted that they had very similar firing rates.
    • the only disadvantage would be a slightly higher shell arc due to a slightly lower muzzle velocity.

Well, you get lower shell speed, more energy retention, better pen at range. At post-Jutland elevation, König also fires at over 20 km. Ingame, neither will fire that far.

 

Reload on könig is pretty much 50% better.

4 hours ago, Praevasc said:
  • The Tegetthoff class carrier torpedo nets, I didn't find any indication of the König having them.

Torpedo nets don't get modelled and count for nothing. Pretty sure the König could use one though.

4 hours ago, Praevasc said:
  • Almost 15% shorter, providing a smaller broadside target.

And smaller, weighing less, having a good bit fewer hp.

4 hours ago, Praevasc said:
  • 50% of the guns pointing fore and aft, while the Köning could point her middle turret only broadside. So 6 guns with heavier shells and longer range, compared to the 4 guns of the König, when pointing your bow at the enemy. Are there any tier 5 battleships in the game which can point 6 guns forwards? Triple turrets in AB-XY configuration are usually a tier 10 feature.

If it's a T10 feature, why is it present on T6 ships (New Mexico) already? Also, Giulio Cesare has 5 guns forward and aft, which are bigger and t5 BBs cannot bowtank, unless they are called König or Oktyabrskaya Revolutsiya, then they can try, because both get a silly amount of armour. Viribus Unitis doesn't compare.

 

4 hours ago, Praevasc said:
  • Almost exactly the same secondary battery.

Also comparable to Kaiser. Low tier secondaries usually are hardly important, due to lack of range.

4 hours ago, Praevasc said:
  • Talking about ahistorical buffs, the Tegetthoff class at least featured AA guns in real life when it was launched. I coudln't find any indication of the Köning having had them.

http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNGER_88mm-45_skc13.php

 

Not that I'd expect much of either of their historic AA suites. König had 10 of these though. The Tegetthoff-class had only 4(!) 7 cm guns, designed to shoot down balloons. The rest of the 7 cm guns were not suited for AA and were just secondaries. 

 

3 hours ago, Praevasc said:

 

This begs for a consumable some French ships have, to stay at 1.5 rpm and being able to double it for a short while with a consumable :)

 

(also, 1.5 shots per minute from 6 guns with heavier more damaging shells and longer range would not be worse than 2.5 shots per minute from 4 guns when facing bow to bow)

Please stop trying to gimmick a perfectably serviceable T4 to make it T5 material. It's a recipe for disaster and absolutely unnecessary. Viribus Unitis belongs to T4 and it doesn't need any crap added to make it suited for T5. There is no point to raising its tier.

4 hours ago, Praevasc said:

Also, considering that tiers below 5 usually can't take part in daily missions, or other special challenges, while tier 5 ships almost always do, I would say I will probably never waste any doubloons, coal/steel, or real money on ships of any less tier than 5.

Your prerogative. And guess what, I can live with it if you don't want to buy the ship. But don't try to make the ship something it is not, just so you can get more out of it. Thanks.

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2 hours ago, Riselotte said:

The rest of the 7 cm guns were not suited for AA and were just secondaries. 

There are other in-game examples of secondaries which in real life weren't used for AA but in game they can be. If I remember correctly some German 88 mm guns are used as AA in game but in real life couldn't be elevated enough to do it.

 

2 hours ago, Riselotte said:

Ingame, neither will fire that far.

So, you would actually nerf the Tegetthoff compared to the real world features, to push it down to tier 4?

 

I still don't get why a ship having better guns than the König and having better armor than the Kongo couldn't belong to the same tier as them.

 

Also, the Ersatz Monarch would definitely be overpowered at tier 5. The Tegetthoff / Viribus Unitis would also be quite overpowered at tier 4, so poeple wil complain, and they will be nerfed. Still, I would agree that the representation of some real world aspects in game terms is subjective, and it would be sad to have a very underwhelming premium ship at tier 5 rather then a good tier 4 (just as the Varyag is the worst tier 3 ship ever), but I guess you wouldn't really have to make too many compromises to make the Tegetthoff a serviceable tier 5 ship. Yes, some aspects might question its position at tier 5, but it would definitely be overpowerd and had to be nerfed if put to tier 4.

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Niels_Juel_(1918)_Plan.jpg

 

Niels_Juel_(1918).jpg

 

HDMS Niels Juel could be a nice T-III cruiser

As in 1938

10 150mm main guns

2 40mm Bofors AA

10 20mm AA probably Madsen guns

8 8mm Madsen MG AA

2 45cm torpedoes

 

Armour belt 195mm

Deck armour 55mm

 

Speed 16 knt.

 

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4 hours ago, Praevasc said:

So, you would actually nerf the Tegetthoff compared to the real world features, to push it down to tier 4?

Pretty much most ships get gun ranges nerfed on main and secondary guns. This isn't a real nerf, it's an adjustment. Where the hell would we end up if Yamato could fire 45 km far instead of its current range of "only" somewhat further than 26 km. Similarly, König also doesn't have 20 km range.

4 hours ago, Praevasc said:

I still don't get why a ship having better guns than the König and having better armor than the Kongo couldn't belong to the same tier as them.

Because König has the worst guns and Kongo among the worst belt armours at T5. In return König has the best armour at T5 and Kongo boasts good guns and speed. A Tegetthoff at T5 would thus have second or third worst guns (König and Oktyabrskaya Revolutsiya are barely worse, Kongo, New York, Iron Duke, Texas, Bretagne and Giulio Cesare are all significantly better), among the worst armour (Kongo, Bretagne and Giulio Cesare likely are equal or worse, rest is miles better), straight up worst speed (20 knots is even slower than the frustrating USN 21 knots), worst AA (even Giulio Cesare with its interwar refit is better, silver lines all are better, Texas obviously is), anaemic hp (lowest displacement) etc. All other ships have a strength somewhere. At T5, this ship has no strengths. It only is crap in every category.

4 hours ago, Praevasc said:

Also, the Ersatz Monarch would definitely be overpowered at tier 5. The Tegetthoff / Viribus Unitis would also be quite overpowered at tier 4, so poeple wil complain, and they will be nerfed. Still, I would agree that the representation of some real world aspects in game terms is subjective, and it would be sad to have a very underwhelming premium ship at tier 5 rather then a good tier 4 (just as the Varyag is the worst tier 3 ship ever), but I guess you wouldn't really have to make too many compromises to make the Tegetthoff a serviceable tier 5 ship. Yes, some aspects might question its position at tier 5, but it would definitely be overpowerd and had to be nerfed if put to tier 4.

Tegetthoff at T4 is OP how? Its guns are nothing special, you already have 12 gun Wyoming and 12 gun Imperator Nikolai at the tier. And the number of guns is basically the only good thing about it at T4, for the armour is mediocre, the hp pool is low, the speed is terrible.

 

Ersatz Monarch also isn't OP for T5. Mediocre hp pool, mediocre armour, mediocre speed, 10 35 cm guns, at a tier where you alrerady have a large number of 10 gun ships with similar caliber. It's a decent fit, same as Tegetthoff for T4. 

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7 minutes ago, Riselotte said:

Ersatz Monarch also isn't OP for T5. Mediocre hp pool, mediocre armour, mediocre speed, 10 35 cm guns, at a tier where you alrerady have a large number of 10 gun ships with similar caliber. It's a decent fit, same as Tegetthoff for T4. 

 

I agree. Ersatz Monarch could fit at T5. For T6 it will require buffs or some gimmicks or both. Tegetthoff would be good T4.

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