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Dallas - Why?

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So, I am grinding USN CLs. A bit late to the party, but hey, seemingly they are fun, people say. Grinded through Phoenix and Omaha, now at Dallas. First off, let me say, I don't think the Dallas is necessarily garbage. Nor do I think I'm doing terribly in it. My performance seems somewhat consistent and I guess you learn a lot for later tiers. But... while I subjectively appreciate Dallas modern layout more than the strange gun configuration of Omaha and Phoenix (I don't like casemate guns), it is hard to see what exactly is supposed to make this ship better. It basically has three improvements over Omaha that really are significant:

  • It can get AA without giving up two guns, two torp launchers and hydro.
  • It gets better concealment. Basically best among all CLs that aren't based on British design. But it is still far from Leander and not that much better than the rest.
  • It gets 16 mm bow that isn't overmatched by cruiser guns.

Now, per se, this doesn't seem too bad. A bit lackluster, but hey, guess that's on par with what Nürnberg gets over Königsberg and Aoba over Furutaka. But then, I look at the armament and go... really? I mean, you already lose torpedoes, which isn't insignificant. But also:

  • While you retain the samew number of guns, you get 8.5 seconds reload, up from 7 seconds.
  • You now get those lazy ballistics instead of mediocre ones. Hitting at range kind of gets more difficult.
  • Not that you get much range, as you got less thereof, from 15.2 km down to 14.3 km.

As said, it isn't gamebreakingly bad, I got decent results so far. But it certainly does not look like much and my stats certainly are worse in this ship (damage, not winrate). I just wonder, why this strange progression, losing potency in both armaments, while getting barely a survivability upgrade (barely more hp too) and one added consumable.

 

I never played old Cleveland, so I cannot compare, but I can guess why people think this ship is underwhelming.

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Dallas has more broadside firepower and AP with 50% more penetration.

While hitting is more difficult, you gain the ability to lob shells over cover.

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5 hours ago, ColonelPete said:

Dallas has more broadside firepower and AP with 50% more penetration.

While hitting is more difficult, you gain the ability to lob shells over cover.

Indeed, I miscalculated on the Omaha. Though the fire rate decrease makes the barrel count increase almost negligible in dpm increase. Also, Omaha can shoot 6 guns directly to the front, Dallas 5. I kinda miss that.

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Dallas also has access to Hydro, defensive AA fire and a catapult fighter. In fact every USA CL after Dallas gets them, on later ones you have to choose between fighter plane, spotter plane or radar. I kinda wish you could have Def.AA and hydro with Hipper and german cruisers after her.

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5 minutes ago, Fatal_Ramses said:

Dallas also has access to Hydro, defensive AA fire and a catapult fighter. In fact every USA CL after Dallas gets them, on later ones you have to choose between fighter plane, spotter plane or radar. I kinda wish you could have Def.AA and hydro with Hipper and german cruisers after her.

Yeah, I remarked that and it is comfortable. I run AA Hipper and it feels sad everytime there is no CV around. So, carrying defAA without paying with hydro certainly is nice. The main issue I have is that still, CVs are rare and torpedoes would be more helpful most of the time. What I miss most with these ships is the ability to have a fast and significant impact. Both offensively to try shift the odds, but also defensively, there is not much keeping determined players from pursuing you. CLs need time to deal damage. I am kind of looking forward to Helena, hoping the 15 guns prove enough to give a fast enough impact, while Cleveland and up likely will need to rely on their tools (including radar) to substitute for burst damage (Worcester does have a ton of dpm though).

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If you find out how to make Dallas work (without the moronic, boring and immersion-destroying tactic of hiding behind islands while your team mates go into harms way to spot for you) then please tell me.

The Cleveland was considered too strong at tier 6, and whatever replaced it would have to be weaker of course, but the Dallas goes too far in this regard IMHO.

 

The Cleveland was far tankier when facing other cruisers and destroyers, and other comparisons between the two are illuminating.

Hit Points - Big advantage to Cleveland with almost 29 % more health!  (36,500 v 28,300)
Main Armament - Big advantage to Cleveland with better Rate of fire, dispersion and range(!). Dallas has better turret rotation .
Secondary Armament - Advantage to Cleveland with better Rate of fire
Anti Aircraft - Advantage to Cleveland with much better Long-Range AA
Maneuvrability - Even
Concealment - Advantage to Dallas (11.9 base versus 13.3)

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1 hour ago, Admiral_H_Nelson said:

If you find out how to make Dallas work (without the moronic, boring and immersion-destroying tactic of hiding behind islands while your team mates go into harms way to spot for you) then please tell me.

Abuse terrain and the concealment. Open-water gunboating is not recommended. At T6, thankfully not everyone knows how to predict cruiser moves (then again, many cruisers know not yet to dodge), so in open waters, sail angled broadside, till you get shot at, then turn in or away and slam the breaks. Accelerate when you survived. I use propulsion mod, because of the island hugging, but it also helps here, as it allows you to accelerate faster. You will need to slam the breaks not just because it helps in general to throw off aim, but because like RN CLs, USN CLs lose little speed in the turn. Well, ok, they lose slightly more, but nowhere what you lose normally. So, going full speed throughout the turn will be still easily predictable.

 

It is also worth noting that sitting stationary behind an island is just one way to abuse terrain, others being shooting around corners, ambushing DDs. Similarly, you don't always need team mates to spot. You got a catapult fighter. Also, don't forget to use AP when firing at cruiser broadside. It is effective (if you can lead the target properly). Similarly, Dallas is deceptively hard to citadel in cruiser vs cruiser fights, as the citadel is (comparatively) small. BB just overmatch and hit it regardless if you are angled.

 

If that is not your playstyle, I think, you are looking at the wrong line.

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8 hours ago, Riselotte said:

If that is not your playstyle, I think, you are looking at the wrong line.

Well, not entirely - because if the enemy are nowhere near you I feel you sometimes HAVE to fight like a man in more open situations (rather than stay huddled behind an island doing nothing).

It does seem to me that IF CIRCUMSTANCES ALLOW then your playing advice is excellent! :Smile_honoring:

 

Funny thing is that I quite like the rest of the line:  Helena( a lot), the "new" Cleveland, and Seattle. I don't have Worcester yet. (And loved the Phoenix & Omaha that precede Dallas).

 

I wanted to like Dallas, but can't. Maybe it is related to the fact that it is too much of a "come down" after the old tier 6 Cleveland.

 

But...another deserved salute for your excellent reply. :Smile_honoring:

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1 hour ago, Admiral_H_Nelson said:

Well, not entirely - because if the enemy are nowhere near you I feel you sometimes HAVE to fight like a man in more open situations (rather than stay huddled behind an island doing nothing).

It does seem to me that IF CIRCUMSTANCES ALLOW then your playing advice is excellent! :Smile_honoring:

 

Funny thing is that I quite like the rest of the line:  Helena( a lot), the "new" Cleveland, and Seattle. I don't have Worcester yet. (And loved the Phoenix & Omaha that precede Dallas).

 

I wanted to like Dallas, but can't. Maybe it is related to the fact that it is too much of a "come down" after the old tier 6 Cleveland.

 

But...another deserved salute for your excellent reply. :Smile_honoring:

You can fight in the open against cruisers and DDs. Against cruisers, unlike Omaha, you don't get your bow overmatched and you do have 10 fast firing guns that have not bad AP. Against DDs, you always carry hydro. Only BBs are a pain, for obvious reasons.

 

I didn't like Phoenix (teams also were crap, so my winrate in the few games I had was crap), Omaha was a souped up repeat and I hate casemate guns. Ship is ok, but not my style. At least it got torps. T5 MM is suffering though, because either you get matched vs T4 where noone knows what they are doing or T7 and you can try fight all those lovely BBs that either are deadly accurate or spam shells at you... well, except Gneisenau, which however is almost impervous to your HE. Dallas was decent, Helena is nice, but IFHE really starts to become necessary. One point away.

 

Honestly, the main fun with Dallas to me was either ruining the game of some DD that overextented or being an annoyance to battleships. Well, the latter at times I had to do, because sometimes just everyone around you manages to die and you get to hold a flank alone. Where I think, you'd rather be a Nürnberg, Budyonny or Leander. Then you try be cocky with dodge tanking, until you ate enough pens and overpens to be on low hp and you get creative with terrain. Then you position yourself just right to shoot your front guns around and island corner at an enemy BB and reverse ats it moves forward, knowing that this Texas is silently cursing my existence. In the end, I obviously died, but at least we got the win, because that Texas was dueling me in the map corner and nowhere near an objective afterwards. So far, my top score was 1.8 million potential damage in the Dallas.

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5 minutes ago, Riselotte said:

I didn't like Phoenix

Well it just goes to show that we are all different. LOL! :Smile_teethhappy:

Phoenix is my most played ship, most successful ship, and most fun ship!   In fact, it's probably the only non-German ship that I would call "favourite ship at its tier". (Not counting the Roon/Fletcher tie at tier 9)

 

Happy sailing to you!  You are one of the most helpful posters on the forum! :Smile_honoring:

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11 minutes ago, Admiral_H_Nelson said:

Well it just goes to show that we are all different. LOL! :Smile_teethhappy:

Phoenix is my most played ship, most successful ship, and most fun ship!   In fact, it's probably the only non-German ship that I would call "favourite ship at its tier". (Not counting the Roon/Fletcher tie at tier 9)

 

Happy sailing to you!  You are one of the most helpful posters on the forum! :Smile_honoring:

I just hate the casemate guns and in general did not find it very exciting. You just go somewhere, pew pew around, dodge, pew pew some more, pew pew at DD, burn things down, get citpenned and die. Then rage at team for throwing, but keep it to yourself, because it's T4 and you shouldn't expect much in the first place.

Spoiler

shot-18_08.17_20_52.23-0568.thumb.jpg.f60494addaafee9734518acd247a1d49.jpg

shot-18_08.17_20_52.30-0339.thumb.jpg.0c0b418e21aa6f19f38bca7df2efacab.jpg

 

Also, personal favourite tier list:

T1: Don't care. All or ok, Black Swan is OP, Bougainville is trash.

T2: Tachibana/Mikasa toss-up

T3: Don't care

T4: Myogi, with Ishizuchi and Yuubari being close

T5: Furutaka

T6: Leander, Graf Spee, Fuso and Perth being nice too.

T7: Akatsuki, though Gneisenau and Hood are nice too.

T8: Harekaze, Kii and Atago get points for looking nice and Hipper/Eugen I want to like more.

T9: Roon, though I'm looking forward to Yuugumo. Roon armour was a letdown. But the FdG is a worse disappointment.

T10: Hindenburg

 

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