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USS_Kremlin

CB Season Three; some points.

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So now that the season is over I wanted to put my thoughts about it here, as well as the thoughts of what seems to be most of my clan, just some pointers on good and bad sides to it all. 

 

- First of all, the points system, it seems to make very little sense, almost feeling like there's some RNG involved with it at times, for example, winning against a  clan one group below you and getting say...18 points. Then you win against a clan in the same group as you....and get the exact same number of points. The only reason I'm aware of for this is....

 

- Bravo teams. A great idea in theory, but I'm sorry to say, implemented absolutely horribly. All this has actually achieved this season is Hurricane/Typhoon clans taking out  Bravo squad with their alpha players and absolutely curb stomping those in the leagues below them in order to prevent advancement; there are however solutions to this. 

      + Give Bravo teams their own set of leagues, separate from the alphas, the Clan's overall rank only uses the alpha team's rank. 

      + Have clans designate Bravo and Alpha players at the start of the season, every two weeks a clan can move up to say...ten members from one team to another. 

      + Abolish it completely if there is no way to stop people taking advantage of it. Not preferable, but I would rather not have a feature than have a crooked and unbalanced feature. 

 

- The matchmaker, as far as I am aware, a clan's ranking in the MM is counted as being a group or two higher than they actually are this season, what this has led to is a large number of clans continuously fighting clans that are reasonably better than them, and has made life even easier for the top clans who can't be matched against higher clans...because they don't exist, instead not even fighting each other much, and mostly clubbing less skilled clans. (Correct me if I''m wrong here, I don't really understand about the whole ELO stuff, this is just what I've been led to believe.)

 

- Ship types. Releasing the Worcester within a week before CB's was game breaking for balance, as it's use in such an environment, or even the regular environment, was relatively unknown and as such very difficult to counter, especially as the ship in a competitive meta is very, very powerful. Honestly it felt like a cash grab to make people buy doubloons specifically so they could free xp to it to use it in CB's.  Not cool. On a similar note, imposing a limit on multiple ships of the same class might be something to look into, a team running 6 Moskvas, Worcesters or anything similar seems to have caused quite a few balancing problems this season, and if the Stalingrad is available next season, that will only lead to more problems.  

 

- Maps, a little more variety would be nice, and I would especially love to see Ocean in the lineup, it would be interesting to see how people adapt to a map with zero islands, when the current lineup is incredibly island heavy. On the island note as well, some maps give blatant advantages to the team that spawns on one side as well, for example the North spawn on Hotspot makes getting the C cap a much easier job, as the islands they have are closer to their spawn and provide much better cover. 

 

I think that's about everything I have to say, though of course as ever feel free to add points if there's anything else anyone feels I haven't covered or have forgotten about. These are just my thoughts and those of my clans, I don't even expect everyone to agree with this. 

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I personally think the introduction of bravo teams is a good idea, especially for those clans which have quite a wide skill variance. Having to nominate players into either alpha or bravo teams is a bad idea though, as sometimes we struggle to get a team out, and other days we have people queueing up to get in the team. We can then select whether to play alpha or bravo depending on who is in the team. I hope to get the clan into a situation where we can run alpha and bravo teams simultaneously when there are enough people online (probably will be able to do this in winter seasons).

I'd like to see separate rankings for the alpha and bravo teams in the league, and know whether you are facing an alpha or bravo team.

Obviously what needs adjusting is the progression mechanism and how points are awarded to counter for this. In previous seasons, if we was beaten by a much better team we wouldn't lose many points. This season, the so called tighter MM leads to little variance in the points awarded or lost. Perhaps the tighter MM only needs to exist for relegation/promotion battle sessions.

Perhaps though, the "+ Give Bravo teams their own set of leagues, separate from the alphas, the Clan's overall rank only uses the alpha team's rank." may have some merit to explore further. But it might cause problems if there are two separate MM queues.

 

Maps could be a little fairer. For example the two islands in C cap at Mountain range, the south island has a hole in it! The hotspot C cap has an advantage to one side, as you can find an island with Z-52 hydro coverage of the entire cap on one side but not the other. A greater variety of maps would lead to greater ship variety, as it would reduce the probability of optimal ship setups. Map variety has been better, but missed Islands of Ice. Ocean would be a good addition in my books.

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Im not sure how much broken it was but sometimes you can be wroung about enemy team rating. The fact they are typhoon does not mean they don't play Bravo Storm divison so you are going to lose more points.
As I said not sure, have not check it but sure something was anyway broken there - you lose 21 points for clan in typphon the same group and then get 20 points again for very similar one.

 

About MM I think it was bassicaly the same as the previous season but MM had big trobule for most of season becuase no one was able to advance higher and this is result of Alpha Bravo ratings stealing the points.
I would say it's just consequence of broken rating, not bug itself, MM would proably work fine if not this, but how to pick strong clans if there are for example 3 in the same league as you? Not possible.

At the same time the fact it's summer + clans struggled to get higher resulted that people gave up and played less so it was even easier to get the same enemy.

 

DD's are bassicaly very useles in clan battles but adding worcester to game made it even worse. I like DD's and I don't know why maps are made in the way that radar crusiers get advantage.

As always there would be more maps but we got at least 6 this time, not 4...

 

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Bravo teams should only meet other Bravo teams. 

 

Horrible idea to let them stomp Alpha teams in the lower leagues. 

 

If there are not enough active players for the MM then, the Bravo rating needs to go. 

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Vor 45 Minuten, Reaper_JackGBR sagte:

- First of all, the points system, it seems to make very little sense, almost feeling like there's some RNG involved with it at times

Agreed, the points need some kind of change.

 

Vor 41 Minuten, Reaper_JackGBR sagte:

All this has actually achieved this season is Hurricane/Typhoon clans taking out  Bravo squad with their alpha players and absolutely curb stomping those in the leagues below them in order to prevent advancement

This is hardly a problem. If as you say they curb stomp everything, how long do you think they stay in these lower leagues? 10 games, maybe 20? That's not preventing anyone from advancing.

 

Vor 42 Minuten, Reaper_JackGBR sagte:

+ Give Bravo teams their own set of leagues, separate from the alphas, the Clan's overall rank only uses the alpha team's rank. 

Doubling waiting times by splitting the MM in half? Sorry, but no.

 

Vor 43 Minuten, Reaper_JackGBR sagte:

 + Have clans designate Bravo and Alpha players at the start of the season, every two weeks a clan can move up to say...ten members from one team to another. 

"We have 12 players online, but can't even put together a 7-man team because 6 of them are Bravo, thanks WG"

 

Vor 47 Minuten, Reaper_JackGBR sagte:

- The matchmaker, as far as I am aware, a clan's ranking in the MM is counted as being a group or two higher than they actually are this season, what this has led to is a large number of clans continuously fighting clans that are reasonably better than them, and has made life even easier for the top clans who can't be matched against higher clans...because they don't exist, instead not even fighting each other much, and mostly clubbing less skilled clans. (Correct me if I''m wrong here, I don't really understand about the whole ELO stuff, this is just what I've been led to believe.)

We didn't get to club anything besides on the first 2 days of the season :Smile_sad:

OMNI, WGP2W, TTT, RAIN, TWA on infinite loop

Our Bravo rating went up in light speed as well.

 

Vor 50 Minuten, Reaper_JackGBR sagte:

- Ship types. Releasing the Worcester within a week before CB's was game breaking for balance, as it's use in such an environment, or even the regular environment, was relatively unknown and as such very difficult to counter, especially as the ship in a competitive meta is very, very powerful.

Agreed, Wooster needs some kind of utility nerf.

 

Vor 51 Minuten, Reaper_JackGBR sagte:

On a similar note, imposing a limit on multiple ships of the same class might be something to look into, a team running 6 Moskvas, Worcesters or anything similar seems to have caused quite a few balancing problems this season, and if the Stalingrad is available next season, that will only lead to more problems.  

I don't think that's a big problem. If someone actually has success with such tactics, than they deserve their win. If it really was too imbalanced, everyone would play it. About Stalingrad: We will see, but I don't think it's gonna be a big problem.

 

Vor 53 Minuten, Reaper_JackGBR sagte:

- Maps, a little more variety would be nice, and I would especially love to see Ocean in the lineup, it would be interesting to see how people adapt to a map with zero islands, when the current lineup is incredibly island heavy. On the island note as well, some maps give blatant advantages to the team that spawns on one side as well, for example the North spawn on Hotspot makes getting the C cap a much easier job, as the islands they have are closer to their spawn and provide much better cover. 

Yes, Ocean would be nice, maybe even introduce Epicenter for clanwars :Smile_trollface:

And yes, some maps need better balance with their islands, but I think WG is actively watching this and working hard on resolving it.

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12 minutes ago, Commander_Cornflakes said:

This is hardly a problem. If as you say they curb stomp everything, how long do you think they stay in these lower leagues? 10 games, maybe 20? That's not preventing anyone from advancing.

It's bad perspective, now mutliply by 100. If your team smash all potatoes team (example aluminium league) on the bottom then you going to advance higher but then you gonna meet Storm clans as Hurricane clan, you gonna stomp on them for a while then advance let say typphon with your bravo but you still get Storm clans and you continue beating them (because rating is broken).

 

The problem itself is not that exactly your clan will do it but any other Typhoon or Storm clan, strong enough to beat potato clans on the bottom and the same goes for any leage.

+ as addition by advancing second rating up to Typhoon you steal at least 1000 points from others :Smile_child:

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My clan has constantly fought the same people again and again. We started counting the games, and at the end we had met several clans 5-6 times.

The Bravo team idea is garbage, in the current form. At the end of the season my clan has played Bravo just for jokes, to grind easy profitable wins. It felt dirty, but easy 2500 base XP never came so easy.

I will not waste space talking about Worcester, the 7 page thread about nerfing it should be enough.

 

In summary this season was a big disappointment for me and I don't look forward to the next one.

 

PS: At the end we abandoned the advancement to Typhoon (no profit there) to club people in lower leagues with the Bravo team.

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Vor 13 Minuten, Griva sagte:

+ as addition by advancing second rating up to Typhoon you steal at least 1000 points from others

It's 700-900 points up to Typhoon. 1000 points up to Hurricane. There are 20 clans in Hurricane, so a total of 20000 "stolen points". Wows-numbers has 1443 clans with at least 15 players, so 1423 Non-Hurricane clans. That's about 14 "stolen points" of each clan. Is that one game really worth talking about?

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58 minutes ago, Commander_Cornflakes said:

It's 700-900 points up to Typhoon. 1000 points up to Hurricane. There are 20 clans in Hurricane, so a total of 20000 "stolen points". Wows-numbers has 1443 clans with at least 15 players, so 1423 Non-Hurricane clans. That's about 14 "stolen points" of each clan. Is that one game really worth talking about?

 

Bear in mind some clans only play for the Gale or even Squall missions, of those 1443 clans, how many were trying to reach Typhoon or Hurricane? if you take that into account, those 14 points become closer to 200 points, and that's a lot. 

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2 hours ago, Commander_Cornflakes said:

It's 700-900 points up to Typhoon. 1000 points up to Hurricane. There are 20 clans in Hurricane, so a total of 20000 "stolen points". Wows-numbers has 1443 clans with at least 15 players, so 1423 Non-Hurricane clans. That's about 14 "stolen points" of each clan. Is that one game really worth talking about?

 

You're grossly oversimplifying it and with being on the stomped team repeatedly it annoyed some of us to the point of quitting CB entirely, you and your clanmates wouldn't experience it of course.

Obviously from your perspective it was just easy wins to farm, but when those easy wins come at the cost of a team struggling to promote and failing as a consequence it's damn irritating. I know most people from the top teams wouldn't care, but it was a real issue for some clans. Git-gud in what's supposed to be a skill ballanced MM isn't an argument that flies, especially as some people want to clan with friends no matter their skill levels.

Beta teams had some good aspects as people who would struggle or be a liability in Alpha got to play, but many top teams plain farmed which was just a pain.

 

The points system was very confusing and also difficult because of the Beta farmers.

 

Fixed Alpha and Bravo team members wouldn't work as already pointed out.

 

Ship limitations wouldn't work for a fair few reasons (not everyone has every ship for a start) and it would cut off some of the innovative team tactics which would be a shame, Stalingrads in numbers will quite possibly be an issue.

 

While I don't mind Ocean in 12v12 I could see it being comically bad in CB.

 

Maps were, as others have said, coming up so often as to be really, really boring, need more of them  and some way to avoid getting the same damn map most of the evening.

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10 hours ago, Reaper_JackGBR said:

- Bravo teams. A great idea in theory, but I'm sorry to say, implemented absolutely horribly.

 

QFT

 

- playing A team of a lot higher ranked clan who are testing something on B rating  and you mannage to beat them  you get 21pts yeah ....

- some clans dont let their 2nd or 3rd team play alpha so youre missing a lot opponents that yielded ~28 something pts on a reasonable winchance 

- if you got only 1x team there is nearly no benefit in having the option while big clans profit the most, but gig clans already had a huge advantage beeing able to run multiple teams

 

[be aware those points are oversimplifiedy cause i dont want to post a wall of text]

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9 hours ago, Commander_Cornflakes said:

It's 700-900 points up to Typhoon. 1000 points up to Hurricane. There are 20 clans in Hurricane, so a total of 20000 "stolen points". Wows-numbers has 1443 clans with at least 15 players, so 1423 Non-Hurricane clans. That's about 14 "stolen points" of each clan. Is that one game really worth talking about?

The problem with bravo is not as simple as others have already said.  There is another aspect to this however. Bravos of elite clans just smashed lower skilled clans and as a result many of those clans simply quit... In effect you broke the food chain for everyone except the great and top clans. Lower skilled clans that didnt quit were too often forced to play against much better clans simply because there was nobody close to their skill level. Thus making even more clans leave. 

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9 minutes ago, DJ_Die said:

The problem with bravo is not as simple as others have already said.  There is another aspect to this however. Bravos of elite clans just smashed lower skilled clans and as a result many of those clans simply quit... In effect you broke the food chain for everyone except the great and top clans. Lower skilled clans that didnt quit were too often forced to play against much better clans simply because there was nobody close to their skill level. Thus making even more clans leave. 

 

As some have already pointed out, elite bravo teams climb the league rather quickly. Those same clans where probably running two teams consecutively at the start of the season before alpha/bravo just to climb the table quicker anyway. I'm not sure it is as big as an issue as people think it is. It might be the points gain/loss from the new tighter MM that is more of an issue. Apparently no more club or be clubbed for small point gain/loss, but it didn't feel like that, it was club or be clubbed for big point gain/loss. For me, alpha/bravo teams is a good development that perhaps needs more balancing. Hopefully WG are looking at it.

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8 hours ago, Reaper_JackGBR said:

Bear in mind some clans only play for the Gale or even Squall missions, of those 1443 clans, how many were trying to reach Typhoon or Hurricane? if you take that into account, those 14 points become closer to 200 points, and that's a lot. 

 

Well, those same reward based clan players existed in previous seasons didn't they? Competitive players keep going as they find CB's fun, compared to lottery randoms and salty ranked battles. There might be an issue higher up the leagues, but yet again, that seems to point towards the new closer MM keeping the same clans fighting each other, and dragging the not quite so top clans to fight the top clans due to less opposition fitting the matchmaking.

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The thing with Bravo teams is that it's a wonderful idea, but the implementation with the point rewards system is horribly unrepresentative of the possible skill levels of the players involved.

 

It's not fun to beat a Hurricane clan in a hardfought match and then get f*ck all points for it because it happens that this was their Bravo team currently in Storm I. And just because the team is running Bravo rating doesn't mean the players are any less skilled than the Alpha ones, if not outright being Alpha players anyhow. We've done that ourselves where we changed our composition and went for two Bravo games to get a feel for it ... with our Alpha team regulars playing.

 

And any high ranked (and according high skilled) clan can effectively leech points off of lower leagues with their Bravo team and it doesn't even matter if it's on purpose (which I very much doubt in the vast majority of cases!) or just happenstance as they rank up the Bravo team, it's simply a barrier for lower league clans that are being matched against an opponent that objectively is simply out of their league (and even though they'd inevitably would advace up, that's no consolation for everyone else they met along the way). In most cases, that would result in a loss and therefore loss of points.

On the other hand if you beat them the reward you get is disproportionally low, because it's based on the Bravo team ranking rather than the skill ranking of the players you fought against (as I've said, doesn't mean they can't have several Alpha playing in Bravo).

 

 

My suggestion would be:

Upon winning against a Bravo team, you get a bonus depending on their Alpha team ranking. So if you're say in Storm I and beat a Bravo team in Storm I, but their Alpha ranking is say Typhoon I, you don't only get the average 20 points for the victory. The actual numbers of the bonus are naturally subject to tweaking, but I'd suggest +5 points per group/league difference, so in the above given example, that would 20+15 points.

Losing against a Bravo team results in a points loss based on their Bravo team ranking as is right now.

 

Something like that should at the very least eleviate the frustrating experience of beating a higher ranked clan only to get miniscule rewards simply because it happened to be their Bravo team in lower leagues (which, just to reiterate, doesn't mean the player quality of the Bravo team is lower league material!).

 

 

 

Also, it should simply display in the match results whether the teams were playing Alpha or Bravo.

 

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11 hours ago, Griva said:

About MM I think it was bassicaly the same as the previous season but MM had big trobule for most of season becuase no one was able to advance higher and this is result of Alpha Bravo ratings stealing the points.

 

MM was changed this season cause of negative comments about storm guys facing hurricane and typhoon guys in previous seasons. this season MM mostly paired you with same group clans and higher group clans if higher group clan didnt have match within group. and that is a problem when you end up in some top 10-20 clans (was in top10 in one part of the season). and then you constantly play against OM, OMNI, TWA, RAIN, TTT if they are in queue. i think we had few evenings where in single evening we had 2-3 matches against OM and 2-3 matches against RAIN etc. and that is the problem cause while with best team in clan we can get 40-50% WR against top clans, we are often not running best team and just end up feeding the top clans with points. last season MM had wider group spread (maybe too wide), but overall it was better cause it managed easier advancement.

 

10 hours ago, Commander_Cornflakes said:

It's 700-900 points up to Typhoon. 1000 points up to Hurricane. There are 20 clans in Hurricane, so a total of 20000 "stolen points". Wows-numbers has 1443 clans with at least 15 players, so 1423 Non-Hurricane clans. That's about 14 "stolen points" of each clan. Is that one game really worth talking about?

it made a difference. point wise and psychologically. while in normal (read not top clans) big clans you have bigger skill gap between top and bottom, in top clans that gap is really small. logically having alpha and bravo team in normal clans is ok cause of that skill gap, having alpha and bravo in top clan is not cause you are having 2 different ratings for almost same skilled players.

psychologically problem is same as last season. people from gale and storm see they are matched against typhoon/hurricane guys even though it is bravo team with gale/storm rating and stop playing after few times.

point wise it is hugely advantageous for top clans cause they can get to typhoon/hurricane rather fast with both teams. then alpha team with best members can concentrate on rating and not losing, while bravo team can get stalingrad for other members. normal clans have to rotate weaker members into alpha for stalingrad. last season both the top clan and normal clan had to rotate weaker members and were rewarded/punished for winning or losing. this season there is not same reward for facing hurricane clans with bravo rating.

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2 hours ago, Armorin said:

 

As some have already pointed out, elite bravo teams climb the league rather quickly. Those same clans where probably running two teams consecutively at the start of the season before alpha/bravo just to climb the table quicker anyway. I'm not sure it is as big as an issue as people think it is. It might be the points gain/loss from the new tighter MM that is more of an issue. Apparently no more club or be clubbed for small point gain/loss, but it didn't feel like that, it was club or be clubbed for big point gain/loss. For me, alpha/bravo teams is a good development that perhaps needs more balancing. Hopefully WG are looking at it.

Yes they climb quickly but at the same time they literally push one clan out of a higher league. If they were running both at the same time they would have discouraged weaker clans because such clans couldnt win... 

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basicaly every Bravo team from top clan is occupying one spot for Alfa team from "weaker" clan. So we have all top clans duplicated in top two leagues, we just cant see their invisible B teams.  

 

Points gain was huge misplay by WG this season - it doesnt matter who you face, it was always +/-17-23 points...

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I liked the idea of alpha and bravo team when they announced it, but seeing it in action, it was implemented rather poorly. Considering it was only first season with alpha and bravo teams, i'm sure (hopeful?) they'll make it better for the next one.

I don't like the idea of limiting ship, I like seeing and fighting against all sort of crazy and/or challenging ship setups, but I am dreading what will happen once Stalingrad comes. :Smile_sceptic:

But I agree there should be more maps in rotation.

 

 

Otherwise, it was a fun season of CBs, as usual. Can't wait for the next one as clan battles is probably the only thing keeping me playing this game atm :Smile_hiding: 

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4 minutes ago, DJ_Die said:

Yes they climb quickly but at the same time they literally push one clan out of a higher league. If they were running both at the same time they would have discouraged weaker clans because such clans couldnt win... 

 

Well, that's probably a fair point. We ended up with both alpha and bravo teams in Gale I. So effectively we are occupying two spots in that league. But even when we where in squall league with the bravo team before the new members start to get the hang of it leading to a rapid rise, we where not encountering as many rental ships this season, so perhaps the quality of teams participating has got better too; or as you say, the weaker clans where discouraged from taking part.

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18 minutes ago, DJ_Die said:

Yes they climb quickly but at the same time they literally push one clan out of a higher league. If they were running both at the same time they would have discouraged weaker clans because such clans couldnt win... 

 

And the side effect of putting such pressure on those clans is making them just get frustrated by facing the same clans over and over, first their alpha team, then basicly the same people on their bravo team, is that they then just go chill out with their own bravo team to train or farm easy fxp while waiting for the top clans to leave their range, which ends up with typhoon (for this season) level clans punching up storm level clans and so on downwards. Ending up with a season that had a huge delay in filling up the league populations, and a ton of frustrated and angry players.

 

I'd agree with separating bravo teams into their own MM entirely, or adjust point gains so a high ranked clans bravo team gains a ton of points while taking fewer away, and quickly get up to close to their alpha rating.

 

As for ship stacking? It's really a non issue. I've met a couple teams like that, lost a few times but won more. It's their rarity that allows them some measure of success as people haven't learned what to expect from such setups.

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The points is my major concern over everything else (along with bravo teams) and that opinion at least seems to be shared by everyone else. 

The most irritating example I can remember was where we beat a Hurricane clan (we were Typhoon III)  and got only 14 points for it, so they were 100% playing Bravo, we then met the same clan later in the day, with only 2 or 3 players being different in their line up, and they were now playing alpha and we lost this time, only getting the -9. I don't mind about the loss, that was appropriate, but getting only 14 points for beating a clan that was in that position was not only disappointing, it made us not want to play. 

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fixing the unbalanced maps should be priority since certain maps allow much better firing angles into key encounter zones than others (e.g hotspot north spawn gets to spam moskva shells onto the DD behind island while south spawn cannot)

 

i would love to see a solution to the border scumming aswell, not every map obviously but there were certain clans that abused this every time we faced them...

improperly fixed exploits are somewhat tolerable in random battles, but seeing this nonsense in competitive modes is depressing...

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While I understand why the MM was changed this season, I believe that Wargaming narrowed the bands a little too much, which made progress a lot harder this year, and it also led to facing the same opposition over and over again, leading to stale games. 

 

The MM should always be +/- your own clan's ELO, this season it felt like it was purely +/= making it very difficult to advance. 

 

Another problem was the time of year the season was run: for smaller clans vacation season killed any chance of progression 

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Bravo/Alpha teams...  Not sure if this is possible but how about giving clan members a rating when calculating points. .  what do i mean

 

Well @Reaper_JackGBR for example he was our principle commander so was in almost every Alpha match. So he could have more Point weight if he played a bravo team game than lets say someone that played only Beta matches.

 

That way if a Hurricane Alpha team plays Beta and all 7 have predominately  been Alpha team. The other team would get points as if they were playing the Alpha team. but on the other side the Hurrican team would not effect the Alpha rating if they were only in Beta to try a new tactic or to train a new team mamber

 

 

OK this would take a lot more fleshing out to make it work. But its better than we have at the moment.

  • Cool 2

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