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An in-depth proposal for de Ruyter (1935) as T4 Dutch premium light cruiser by Lert on NA

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A while ago I copied a proposal by Lert on the NA forumHe made a proposal for HNLMS De Ruyter as well, arguably the most (in)famous Dutch ship that would be suitable for the timeframe of WoWs, and so I copied it here as well. So again, credits go to Lert since he did all the work and I merely copy-paste it to EU.

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Ok, some real talk. Although I would love for an actual Dutch nation to be in the game, chances of that happening are slim. Especially a cruiser line, which we just plain can't fill without resorting to a lot of theoretical designs, never-builts. This limits us to either a cameo or two in a pan-european cruiser tree, or a few premium ships. In this thread I would hope to present my argument for inclusion of the famous unique light cruiser de Ruyter as tier 4 premium, though with minimal tweaks she could just as easily work as a tier 4 in a pan-european cruiser tree.

So without further ado,

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HNLMS de Ruyter

In the 1930s the Dutch government saw the need for a new cruiser to supplement the aging Java class cruisers operating around Indonesia, which was at the time a Dutch colony. The theory was that with three cruisers operating in the area, we could guarantee two at sea, even if a third was in for repairs or service. However, the Netherlands was suffering a great depression at the time, and a very strong pacifistic movement further complicated matters. As such, one heavily restricted 'flotilla leader' was planned and finally authorized. The designers were held back by lack of funds as well as political pressure, and the resulting ship was under-powered, under-armored and under-gunned, due to extreme cost-saving measures and pacifist pressure.

She was laid down at Wilton-Fijenoord dockyards at Schiedam on September 16th, 1933 and commissioned on October 3rd, 1936. She served the war in the Netherlands East Indies, now Indonesia, in fruitless attempts to thwart Japanese invasion. Invariably finding herself outmatched, she still fought for what she was worth, showing Dutch fighting spirit. She fought in the battle of the Bali Sea, where an air attack damaged her, but she survived. She also survived the battle of Badung Strait, and entered the battle of Java Sea as flagship, under Admiral Karel Doorman's command. It was here she found her demise. She was hit by a Long Lance torpedo from the Myoukou class Hagurowhich caused a fire and a flooding, and shorted out her electrical systems. Due to the lack of electricity, damage control efforts were severely hampered and the crew was unable to stop the fire and the flooding.

De Ruyter sank the next morning at 2:30 AM, with the loss of 345 men out of 435 crew, including Admiral Doorman and Captain Lacomblé.

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Luitenant ter Zee Eugène Lacomblé.

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Schout-bij-Nacht Karel Willem Frederik Marie Doorman.

Her wreck was discovered in December 2002 and declared a war grave. However, in 2016 it was discovered that illegal salvage had led to the complete disappearance of de Ruyter, along with the wreck of the light cruiser Java and much of the Admiralen class destroyer Kortenaer.

But how would she work in game?

Tonnage:

7822 ton full load.

This would give us 24400 hit points. This puts us slightly ahead of Phoenix, with her 24000 hit points and slightly behind Svietlana with her 24600 hit points. Nothing remarkable here, just a tier appropriate chunk of hit points.

Armor:

Rm3YCEE.jpg

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De Ruyter would be very soft indeed. Boasting only a 50mm armor belt with 13mm weather deck, 6mm splinter deck and 30mm citadel deck, with a 30mm bulkhead between the outer hull and the machinery space. The turrets also had 30mm of armor. This armor profile wouldn't stop anything substantial, and with an above water citadel she'd be very prone to instant deletions from battleships, cruisers and defecating seagulls.

Main armament:

Tx3MVcJ.jpg

De Ruyter saying 'hello'.

7x 150mm /50 Mk 9 & 10.

These are Bofors designed guns built under license at Wilton-Fijenoord. The ship carried seven of these guns in four turrets, two twins superfiring aft and a single superfiring a twin, afore.

QHMU5Z7.jpg

Single mount superfiring a twin.

These guns aren't in the game yet but we have most of the data about their performance, and what we don't have we can estimate by looking at similar mounts on ships that are in the game. To start with these were fairly slow firing guns, with a cited rate of fire of between 5 and 6 rounds per minute. If we go by best case scenario we get a 10 second reload cycle per barrel. They fired a 46kg projectile at 900 meters per second. Unfortunately I don't have any data on the bursting charge carried by these shells, but if we look at very similar guns firing very similar weight shells, like those on Phoenix, we can make an educated guess about what damage and fire chance these shells would very likely get.

I would give de Ruyter the following numbers:

  • 10s reload
  • 30s traverse time
  • 900 mps muzzle velocity
  • 2200 HE dmg, 12% fire chance
  • 3100 AP dmg
  • 16.6k range
  • 149m dispersion

This gives us a broadside DPM of 130k with AP, compared to 132.8k on Phoenix. A bit lower, but still competitive.

But will 130k DPM be enough? Phoenix is faster, better armored (yes, really) and as we will discuss later, more stealthy too. Plus, she has torpedoes. In fact, most if not all of the tier 4 cruisers have torpedoes, and competitive DPM. Except de Ruyter, which does not have torpedoes. So, no, I don't think 130k DPM with nothing else going for it will be sufficient. But how to buff de Ruyter's damage output without straying from historical gun performance?

One option would be to buff her reload. I'm not a fan of this. I'd like to stick to the historical numbers as much as I can.

Another option would be to buff her shells. Maybe inflated AP damage, like the Germans? Hmmm. Maybe. Or what about enhanced AP dynamics, like the British? If we look at the Navweaps page for these guns, it states that "Surviving ships were supplied with British-built munitions during World War II". Maybe we're on to something here.

I think it would be perfectly reasonable to say that if the ship used British ammunition, though 150mm instead of Royal Navy 152mm, it would still come from the same factories and design philosophy, to give de Ruyter's AP shells the improved ricochet angles and shorter fuse time of British cruiser AP.

  • 5ms fuse time (compared to 33ms on normal cruiser AP)
  • 60 ~ 75 degree ricochet angles before normalization (compared to 45 ~ 60 on normal cruiser AP)

This I think would make her unremarkable DPM easier to apply, while still giving her a fall back shell with normal performing HE. What de Ruyter lacks in armor, speed or concealment she makes up for in ease-of-use of her main guns.

Auxiliary armament:

10x 40mm Bofors

Carrying 5 dual Bofors mounts, de Ruyter sports a very impressive AA suite for her tier at 117 dpm at 3.5km. Of course this AA suite is mostly useful for self defense and though it leaves room for buffing with captain skills, this would require a fairly hefty investment of captain points. Another problem is that all five dual Bofors nests are clumped together, making them vulnerable to a single HE impact.

Maneuverability:

Top speed: 32 knots.

Not bad for a tier 4 cruiser, towards the faster side, but definitely nothing impressive either. The other cruisers at this tier are all close to this speed as well, except for outliers like Karlsruhe which manages only 27.5 knots.

As for her agility, she's a fairly standard light cruiser, comparable in size to the others. As such I would give her middling agility as well. Let's say a 610 meter turning radius with base 6.1 second rudder shift.

Concealment:

o5GatuL.jpg

De Ruyter has a very tall and prominent mast, which is both a boon and a hindrance. It helps give her very good gun range for her tier, but also makes her very visible. For concealment I would give her:

  • 15.4km by sea
  • 8km by air

Consumables:

Standard T4 cruiser. Damage Control Party, Hydro Acoustic Search. For added flavor we'll add Defensive Fire. Finally, de Ruyter carried provisions for a scout plane, so we'll give her one of those as well. No option for a fighter; between five Bofors nests and DFAA she doesn't need the additional AA DPS.

Upgrade slots:

Standard Tier 4, two slots, up to the 250k credit option.

O9wOcR7.jpg

Play style:

She wants to stay at the rear, where her bad concealment and worse armor are less of an issue. Modern fire control and a tall mast give her the range to reach out and touch someone. A potent AA suite, the DFAA consumable and Hydro give her the tools to function as fleet escort and support ship, and the combination of HE for at range and enhanced AP for close by helps her to damage at any range. She'll play like a the love child of Phoenix and Danae, being a squishy support cruiser with tools to help her do her job for the team. It's only her lack of torpedoes and mediocre ballistics that makes her stand out from the pack, but the enhanced AP helps off-set those drawbacks.

Elephant in the room:

I know many people want her at T5, but she simply doesn't have the legs, armor or DPM to be competitive at that high a tier. Omaha for example is faster, more heavily armored (yes, really), has more barrels to a broadside, faster reload and torpedoes. In fact, I was appalled to do the numbers on de Ruyter's guns and realized that, lacking torpedoes, I had to do something to enhance her gunnery to make her competitive at tier 4. Enhanced British AP is my choice, based purely on a throwaway line on the navweaps page about her weapons.

0ALHjPa.jpg

De Ruyter under construction

So, in short:

Pros:

  • Historical pedigree
  • Powerful AA suite
  • Plane
  • Lots of design blueprints available (see gahetna link in sources)
  • uhm ...
  • Fast ... ish?

Cons:

  • AA is all mid range
  • Bofors nests all clustered together
  • Softer than a wet newspaper
  • Uninspiring design, underpowered for her vintage
  • Low tier (Limited public interest, low return on investment for modeling a whole new ship)
  • Dutch nation not in game / limited captain training appeal

What would she cost, if implemented at T4?

$13 USD, for the ship and the slot.

What camouflage would she wear?

Best I can find out, this is what she was wearing when she was sunk:

UjjlUyy.png

The camouflage would have the normal T4 premium camouflage bonuses:

  • -3% detectability by sea
  • +4% dispersion of incoming shells
  • -10% cost of post-battle service
  • +50% to XP

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At the end of this thread, de Ruyter waves goodbye as she sails away.

In closing:

Though I think it very likely that we'll eventually see her in the game, I'd rather they pick any other of a large selection of Dutch ships. While I fully acknowledge de Ruyter's place in history, she's just not a very interesting ship to me, design wise. A squishy, highly visible light cruiser with middling DPM, seen it before. Plus, I think she looks a bit clumsy with that straight bow and gigantic, prominent tower. That said, I won't complain if / when we do get her and I'd be first in line to buy her.

I want to thank @LittleWhiteMouse for helping me nail down some of the intricacies of this proposal, @snowyskies for his help in finding detailed plans, and @fr05ty for his help with formulas and crunching numbers.

.....

Odd, their @ mentions don't want to work for some reason.

Sources used:

@Pigeon_of_War

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End quote.

Again, not my idea, but an idea by NA user Lert, who gave me permission to post it here.

Like with the Witte de With proposal I'm all in for this idea. This might be a less unique ship compared to the destroyer, but she might be easier to balance. On top of that, she's a well-known ship that was built in real life ánd saw action, and that is something that can't be said from a lot of recent additions to the game.

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Beta Tester
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I'm surprised De Ruyter isn't in game yet, especially after the illegal salvaging over the past few years. 

 

Doorman would also be a nice addition as a legendary commander. 

 

 

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But would the Dutch be happy with such a compromised ship? Sounds like a bad version of the Emerald to me - let's face it, if the Dutch I know do anything, they speak their mind and the flak generated by this ship would be plentiful. Historically of course there is no argument - a ship with real history from a proud nation.

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That's why I think I have to agree with Lert to put her on tier 4. Not the most popular tier, but that seems a better option to me than to buff her with some fictional upgrades only to be able to put her on a higher tier. Or do you think tier 4 is too high even?

I haven't looked into the stats too much myself, if I did I could've written articles myself instead of copying them from others.

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I love the idea of somehow getting ships from the Netherlands into the game, and Lert's proposal looks workable.

 

The only drawback that I see about the proposal is that it is for a tier 4 ship - and WG seem to insist on Tier 5 and above for missions & challenges (tier 8+ in some cases).

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I would argue for T5 rather than T4, but for me T4 works just as well.

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As a dutchie of course I would like to see some Dutch ships as well, premium or not. Hope they can tweak it to a T5 cruiser though but will be hard with those specs because after all a T5 will meet T6 and even T7 ships frequently.

I think De Ruyter as a premium will sell plenty to make it interesting for development.

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Makes one wonder how this light armoured and armed ship was the lead ship that battled for hours with among others a Japanese Heavy cruiser led convoy fleet and finally was finally torpedoed rather then destroyed by cannon fire.

 

IRL it seems it could escape being hit and destroyed by cannon fire a long time, had it disengaged it would even have lived to fight another battle.

 

I am interested in what historically happend ( being Dutch and all ) but i dont see how this ship will have special worth in the game. Paper armoured and armed ships dont do so well, nor are they enjoyable to play.

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Well, Doorman initially didn't want to sail to meet the Japanese to begin with. He saw how hopeless the situation was, and instead wanted to withdraw to Australia. They would live to fight another day, better prepared. His superior ordered him to engage anyway, and from a moral point of view something can be said about that. You can't simply leave the Indies and its people to let it fall into enemy hands.

 

And it's easy to speak on hindsight. I believe it took another year before the Allies learned about the Long Lance, so that was a nasty surprise. Disastrous for the Royal Netherlands Navy.

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