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Mikal11

What is up with HMS Queen Elizabeth armour?

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I played alot of HMS Iron Duke and really enjoyed that ship, it felt well balanced and could stand up to other ships of the same tier well, today I got HMS Queen Elizabeth and just what the hell is wrong with it? It's impossible to enjoy, no matter what part of the ship the enemy hits you at, no matter what angle the shells impact, you're taking HUGE damage, even whilst in retreat, the enemy can be hitting your back end, just scraping it, but it still inflicts huge damage, it feels like it doesn't have any armour, I use the Campbeltown alot for a bit of fun and I'd say that little DD can take more shells than HMS Queen Elizabeth, has it been overwhelmingly nerfed for some reason? It's an absolute joke for a Battleship of this tier.

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Completely bow/aft towards enemy is always bad on midtiers. Best way to angle is show a bit broadside and then turn so that it can ricochet of your belt. QE is like all other midtier BBs imo. I dont take more damage in it than in the others.

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Bow and stern can be over matched by all 381mm guns you need to angle so they hit the belt armour at the side.. On the positive side your guns can over match all T-VII BB's Bow and Stern too

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9 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

Completely bow/aft towards enemy is always bad on midtiers. Best way to angle is show a bit broadside and then turn so that it can ricochet of your belt. QE is like all other midtier BBs imo. I dont take more damage in it than in the others.

 

6 minutes ago, hgbn_dk said:

Bow and stern can be over matched by all 381mm guns you need to angle so they hit the belt armour at the side.. On the positive side your guns can over match all T-VII BB's Bow and Stern too

Ricochet doesn't seem to work on HMS QE, I've tried it so many times, like I said, no matter what angle, the shell is going to penetrate the same as it would if you were full broadside, it just doesn't seem to work.

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I think it is my best scoring BB... the main difference is you meet tier 8. 

And the AP is better than the HE, in Iron Duke the HE was better.

 

Angling is, you ALMOST go bow-on, right when the rear turrets ar just NOT able to shoot.

Then you swing out the rear a little bit, shoot, and re-angle. 

 

And indeed where at T5 the Iron Duke was very very good with armour, at t6 the Queen E is about average.

Keep a bit more distance and use the AP. I shoot Tirpitzes with it (to their surprise). 

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I don't take more damage in mine than in other mid tier BB's you just need to find that sweet spot.

 

I think you might have to show more broadside than you think to bounce shells..

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9 minutes ago, Mikal11 said:

 

Ricochet doesn't seem to work on HMS QE, I've tried it so many times, like I said, no matter what angle, the shell is going to penetrate the same as it would if you were full broadside, it just doesn't seem to work.

 

Depending on which BBs are in game, T5-T7 is probably hardest to angle properly. While T8+ BBs can basicly bowtank each other (exception Yamato and Musashi, which will overmatch basicly all others, again exception GK to some degree).

 

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Best tactic is to dodge the shells coming at you. Turn the same second you see others shooting at you. That will mitigate the numbers of shells hitting you. You got the manoeuvrability relative fast rudder and tight turning circle.

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3 hours ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

I think it is my best scoring BB... the main difference is you meet tier 8. 

And the AP is better than the HE, in Iron Duke the HE was better.

 

Angling is, you ALMOST go bow-on, right when the rear turrets ar just NOT able to shoot.

Then you swing out the rear a little bit, shoot, and re-angle. 

 

And indeed where at T5 the Iron Duke was very very good with armour, at t6 the Queen E is about average.

Keep a bit more distance and use the AP. I shoot Tirpitzes with it (to their surprise). 

The armour isn't average, it is pretty underwhelming. The only armour schemes at T6 I consider worse are the New Mexico and the Dunkerque. Warspite shares QE's not very exciting armour scheme.

 

As to why I consider it bad, here...

 

This is Iron Duke, the T5 predecessor.

Spoiler

shot-18_08.17_05_09.56-0020.thumb.jpg.528bf994a0481394b6ab69bd66fff5c3.jpg

Like all T5s, the bow can be overmatched, but as you see, some belt plating goes almost to the very front at the waterline and the broadside has the belt and 152 mm upper belt casemate armour that will ricochet most shells. Like all T5s, the Iron Duke must bait shots at the broadside, but it at least will hardly ever eat citadels or such through the bow and when it baits them, it'll bounce reliably.

 

Now, for Queen Elizabeth/Warspite...

Spoiler

shot-18_08.17_05.10_08-0669.thumb.jpg.62db26e971d3c99877ca1895e0a4a0e3.jpg

Like all T6 BBs, the QE has 25 mm bow plating, so it can bounce the 356 mm guns and such, but it cannot bounce 38 cm and larger. A QE will get overmatched at her bow by her own guns. Now, that alone isn't special. What is special is that 25 mm side plating above the main armour belt. As long as the shell does not hit the waterline, it'll overmatch that area and give a pen.... on a perfectly angled BB. Above that is a large amount of superstructure to farm too. at least you get that extension of the belt towards the bow, though it mainly is hidden under the torpedo bulge.

 

Now, for competition...

 

Bayern

Spoiler

shot-18_08.17_05_11.01-0997.thumb.jpg.b5b0c35df3a327779db9e551a7de6271.jpg

Undisputed Queen of T6 armour, Bayern. This is armour. This is what the Bayern gets for its lulzy gun behaviour. 25 mm bow, but with heavy plating extending forward (the green section at the bow is 25 mm upper plating and 30 mm lower plating, so it can bounce Nagato shells...), a 350 mm belt to tank shells and the upper casemates are also armoured enough to reliably bounce. The superstructure is not small, but from the front well hidden behind those large bulky turrets. Note the lack of torpedo bulges though. That's not very good (though the RN BBs can't boast any great torp protection either).

 

Also, obviously there is German turtleback inside, to make citadels hard.

 

Fuso

Spoiler

shot-18_08.17_05_11.30-0974.thumb.jpg.01a52bf867c0ea7805f17a281f7eafd3.jpg

Despite not necessarily having a reputation for durability, Fuso is a very durable ship. This is the combination of narrow profile from the front, the armour being not thick but all over the ship, with casemates being armoured again at 152 mm. That lower bow plating goes almost all the way to the front, making it actually very good. Not to be underestimated... it also has a ton of hp.

 

Normandie

Spoiler

shot-18_08.17_05_13.07-0205.thumb.jpg.81c66a7dc0ac2a4ce71427d11103d788.jpg

Mid-section is 25 mm, but the casemates towards the bow are 180 mm. If you somehow can snipe the angled ship for the 25 mm section, you're blessed by RNGesus, but usually you'll bounce off. Lower bow plating is best at the tier. Damn biased baguette...

 

Finally, the one ship that is worse...

Spoiler

shot-18_08.17_05_13.27-0544.thumb.jpg.547d615198d7de1e918a0c90419ef914.jpg

All-or-Nothing scheme. On the upside, the citadel sits behind the best protection scheme after Bayern. downside, everything that isn't the citadel, the turret faces or the conning tower is barely armoured at all. This thing eats 38 cm gun pens EVERYWHERE. Your best bet is baiting on the belt, hoping it'll ovbermatch the torp protection, ricochet off your side belt and bounce off harmlessly, but if it hits the upper belt it'll overmatch and go in. If it hits the bow, it'll overmatch and be a pen.If it hits the superstructure in the side, it'll pen or at best overpen.

 

Dunkerque I do not have, so I cannot show the protection scheme, but let's just say, the ship isn't going to hold up well, if faced with a T7+ ship.

 

It also won't get better after QE. Basically all later RN BBs have large parts of common plating, the T8+ ships at least having 32 mm common plating like all T8+ ships. Still means the Conqueror and such will eat Yamato overmatch pens and are easily HE farmed (and might die if they cannot use their lolheal). Only the T7 premium Hood can boast any appreciable tankiness compared to the peers at its tier, while premium Nelson's armour scheme looks as if the devs just gave up.

Spoiler

shot-18_08.17_05_49.13-0248.thumb.jpg.09ee7d911a8504d9577cc3c5e4ec6536.jpg

KGV with 25 mm upper belt. Yuck!

shot-18_08.17_05_48.30-0642.thumb.jpg.0d9327c1a4b807cfa992c30c4afd06c2.jpg

Hood. Overmatchable at bow and stern, but no weak upper belt and 51 mm of deck. On the belt or deck, you can bounce anything and shatter HE even from high-tier Germans. Superstructure is farmable, but eventually saturated.

shot-18_08.17_05_48.44-0835.thumb.jpg.319a408b6a1465eaa8660b047690a127.jpg

Nelson. The bow and stern is 25 mm. Everything else on the hull is 32 mm. IFHE CLs love this thing. It also has an exposed citadel, so you can easily cripple it with broadside AP. It does have a Conqueror heal though, but without the nerf to the cooldown. Nelson may not print money like Missouri, but it sure prints Dreadnought and Fireproof awards...

So, OP, if you were looking for strong armour, sorry, the RN line is not the line for that. The Germans are better armoured across all tiers. The Japanese across most and the Americans at the higher tiers. The French are decent at lower tiers, but about as lightly armoured from Richelieu onwards. Russians I don't know yet, though the two Russian BBs we have are basically just goddamn Russian bias. Italians I cannot draw conclusions from premiums either, as one is squishy, the other is not.

 

That is not to say RN BBs are bad though. They have decent guns (though the penetration at times sucks). And stupidly good HE.

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2 hours ago, Riselotte said:

The only armour schemes at T6 I consider worse are the New Mexico...

Hahahaha guess what other BB I have... and I consider it quite OK. 

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QE isn't a brawler. Use her AP and manoeuvrability, keep at around 10k from the target and give yourself enough room to get between the salvos. She's an old girl but she can hit very hard indeed. 

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As others have said Queen Elizabeth was converted to a 'all or nothing' armour scheme, it's terrible for WOWS. Most high tier Battleships are like this, even 'tanky' German ones have massive superstructure everyone can easily damage.

 

You'll need to learn these 3 basic BB tactics. 

 

Island camp (Use islands to block vision, shells and torpedoes)

Snipe at 20km+ (Counters torpedoes and makes for it hard for cruisers/destroyers to shoot you) 

High speed kiting (Counters torpedoes and makes you harder to hit with guns)

 

QE can't kite or snipe so you'll need to learn how to use islands to your advantage.

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4 hours ago, Riselotte said:

So, OP, if you were looking for strong armour, sorry, the RN line is not the line for that. The Germans are better armoured across all tiers. The Japanese across most and the Americans at the higher tiers. The French are decent at lower tiers, but about as lightly armoured from Richelieu onwards. Russians I don't know yet, though the two Russian BBs we have are basically just goddamn Russian bias. Italians I cannot draw conclusions from premiums either, as one is squishy, the other is not.

 

Allover good assessment, but i think you forgot to mention, that RN BBs hardly ever eat citdels.

So while having less armor than IJN/US BBs, they still get citadelled. More so when you move up the tiers (Nagato, NC...)

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5 hours ago, DFens_666 said:

 

Allover good assessment, but i think you forgot to mention, that RN BBs hardly ever eat citdels.

So while having less armor than IJN/US BBs, they still get citadelled. More so when you move up the tiers (Nagato, NC...)

At higher tiers, Iowa and Montana also have an underwater citadel, while the Japanese indeed get the short end of the stick in this regard. KM meanwhile gets turtleback from Nassau to Kurfürst. But citadel protection kind of is like torp protection. You count on it when you f-ed up or when you got outplayed. HE resistance and ability to bounce shells while angled meanwhile are important basically all the time, unless you camp at the H line and snipe. In that regard, I guess Conqueror and Yamato are indeed the tankiest.

 

6 hours ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

Hahahaha guess what other BB I have... and I consider it quite OK. 

You like them slow?

6 hours ago, creamgravy said:

As others have said Queen Elizabeth was converted to a 'all or nothing' armour scheme, it's terrible for WOWS. Most high tier Battleships are like this, even 'tanky' German ones have massive superstructure everyone can easily damage.

 

You'll need to learn these 3 basic BB tactics. 

 

Island camp (Use islands to block vision, shells and torpedoes)

Snipe at 20km+ (Counters torpedoes and makes for it hard for cruisers/destroyers to shoot you) 

High speed kiting (Counters torpedoes and makes you harder to hit with guns)

 

QE can't kite or snipe so you'll need to learn how to use islands to your advantage.

Superstructure being unprotected is not related to all-or-nothing. All-or-nothing is what you see on the USN, high tier RN and MN ships, where pretty much everything on the hull that isn't main belt is weak minimal plating for its tier (25 mm before T8, 32 mm from T8 onewards). If you look at German hulls, they are incredibly armoured starting already from the Nassau, which has enough lower bow armour to tank Yamato.

 

And don't snipe, unless you are an idiot.

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1 hour ago, Riselotte said:

Superstructure being unprotected is not related to all-or-nothing. All-or-nothing is what you see on the USN, high tier RN and MN ships, where pretty much everything on the hull that isn't main belt is weak minimal plating for its tier (25 mm before T8, 32 mm from T8 onewards). If you look at German hulls, they are incredibly armoured starting already from the Nassau, which has enough lower bow armour to tank Yamato.

 

 

I'm just saying even high tier BBs with good armour, like Bismarck or GK, can be easy damaged by anything due to the large superstructure.

Unlike low tier BBs with no superstructure, shooting Fuso in a cruiser or DD is painful :cap_like:

1 hour ago, Riselotte said:

And don't snipe, unless you are an idiot.

 

Going out wide to snipe in a BB or high velocity CA is a very important skill to learn for tier 10 ranked (and presumably clan battles)

Don't confuse potatoes at spawn that can't hit a barn door at 1km and boarder hugging pros that get good angles on island camping DMs. Those guys win games.

 

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QE is a good kiter really good firing angles on the turrets. Keep your distance 10-12km, shoot, mask the turrets dodge incoming. and the return punch is very hard. reasonable good AA for the tier. I like it more than my Warspite.

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10 hours ago, Riselotte said:

You like them slow?

Naahhh just L2P. Still need to, someday I'll remember not to over-extend. 

I actually thought Queen E was quite fast. The turret rotation, I get used to that. 

OK and then I bought Hood... LOL. The stuff you can get away with... just LOL.

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2 hours ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

Naahhh just L2P. Still need to, someday I'll remember not to over-extend. 

I actually thought Queen E was quite fast. The turret rotation, I get used to that. 

OK and then I bought Hood... LOL. The stuff you can get away with... just LOL.

Ah, ok. My first line was IJN, second was KM. So, I am used to ships going more than 21/22 knots. Also, I'm used to my ships having proper armour, though ships like Nagato or Amagi taught me what it means to have weak HE resistance and a soft upper belt.

 

But yeah, survivability-wise, Hood at T7 only really has competition in the Scharnhorst/Gneisenau duo, which have less hp, but better armour overall.

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21 hours ago, Riselotte said:

Ah, ok. My first line was IJN, second was KM. So, I am used to ships going more than 21/22 knots. Also, I'm used to my ships having proper armour, though ships like Nagato or Amagi taught me what it means to have weak HE resistance and a soft upper belt.

 

But yeah, survivability-wise, Hood at T7 only really has competition in the Scharnhorst/Gneisenau duo, which have less hp, but better armour overall.

IJN... I only have a Kuma so far (as I got a 10 point IJN captain at some Operation).

My son / div mate likes IJN DDs. He also plays KM. Mostly I have RN and US. 

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On 8/17/2018 at 10:28 AM, creamgravy said:

Snipe at 20km+ (Counters torpedoes and makes for it hard for cruisers/destroyers to shoot you).

 

Best way to lose.  Bad accuracy at 20 km, combined with lack of tanking damage for the team. All the damage will be taken by DDs and cruisers then, and not much HP there. After they die, enemy will come for you.

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Have really not been enjoying this boat personally..But it has nothing to do with the armor, it's the combination of the glacial turret rotation and slow speed.

 

Thankfully I am getting along with the Duke of York better or I'd have quit the line tbh..

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9 minutes ago, lafeel said:

Have really not been enjoying this boat personally..But it has nothing to do with the armor, it's the combination of the glacial turret rotation and slow speed.

 

Thankfully I am getting along with the Duke of York better or I'd have quit the line tbh..

Yeah, the strengths are her guns, which are 38 cm, thus for T6 they are large. And unlike Bayern, they have RN dispersion, not German one, so they actually hit stuff. In most other regards, the ship is rather unremarkable and I haven't bothered playing it, given I have Warspite, which has better guns, as far as AP is concerned. And with Nelson and Ishizuchi, I have enough HE spamming BBs for my tastes, I don't need more of that sort. Though it might be necessary at times in Oktyabrskaya Revolutsiya. I have QE researched though, mostly so I could sell off the Iron Duke.

 

In my book, the Iron Duke is just there to be unfun. It is slow and has horrid gun traverse and the somewhat sucky RN AP. So, playing it feels boring. On the other hand, you get broken RN HE, which makes it frustrating to everyone that has to face it. QE at least has some qualities to her AP.

 

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22 minutes ago, Riselotte said:

Yeah, the strengths are her guns, which are 38 cm, thus for T6 they are large. And unlike Bayern, they have RN dispersion, not German one, so they actually hit stuff. In most other regards, the ship is rather unremarkable and I haven't bothered playing it, given I have Warspite, which has better guns, as far as AP is concerned. And with Nelson and Ishizuchi, I have enough HE spamming BBs for my tastes, I don't need more of that sort. Though it might be necessary at times in Oktyabrskaya Revolutsiya. I have QE researched though, mostly so I could sell off the Iron Duke.

 

In my book, the Iron Duke is just there to be unfun. It is slow and has horrid gun traverse and the somewhat sucky RN AP. So, playing it feels boring. On the other hand, you get broken RN HE, which makes it frustrating to everyone that has to face it. QE at least has some qualities to her AP.

 

You say the strength are her guns, but those guns have been frustratingly inconsistent for me. As much as it pains for me to say this I am seriously considering free xp'ing my way out of her..

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Just now, lafeel said:

You say the strength are her guns, but those guns have been frustratingly inconsistent for me. As much as it pains for me to say this I am seriously considering free xp'ing my way out of her..

The biggest issue with the guns is RN short fuze. So, getting more than pens on BBs might be a struggle. But other than that, the QE should be better in all areas compared to Bayern. Heck, the shells even do more damage compared to Bayern. And obviously, the 38 cm guns allow for options the other T6 without such or larger gun caliber don't have.

 

Then again, we all have our ships we don't get along with.

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Just now, Riselotte said:

The biggest issue with the guns is RN short fuze. So, getting more than pens on BBs might be a struggle. But other than that, the QE should be better in all areas compared to Bayern. Heck, the shells even do more damage compared to Bayern. And obviously, the 38 cm guns allow for options the other T6 without such or larger gun caliber don't have.

 

Then again, we all have our ships we don't get along with.

Aye, indeed we do. And belive me, as a history nerd (and a proud one at that) not getting along with a ship that has as proud and long a history of service as the QE does is almost literally painful.

 

I'm even getting more consistency out of the Gneisenau's guns for *edited*'s sakes..

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