Slow BB Power Creep?

[RUSSIANBlAS]

Anyone else find slower BBs (anything under 25 knots) are nearly unplayable at the mid tiers these days?

 

I tried playing the Warspite and Arizona the other day and I've got 19 pt captains on both plus myself at the helm and I find anything where you're vs T7 or T8 puts you at a huge disadvantage. Factor in mid tier BBs lack of armour and other BBs (French and German mostly) being 30knot speed demons means you have very little answers to teams that push and play properly. Most T7 BBs these days are pretty swift too unlike when WoWS awhile back when there were only IJN and USN BBs.

 

I'd rather play Dunkerque at T6 than any of the others at that tier and that includes Warspite which I've loved playing throughout the years. I'd even rather take a GC into a bottom tier game than a slow TO into the same MM.

 

I know you can target Cruisers first etc but mid tier BB even USN ones tend to melt fast under fire. Especially when many BB now can chase you down even with 3/4 engine speed.

 

 

That being said I'm looking forward to the German T6 Hood knock off 

 

 

Maybe I'm just spoilt by fast BBs or am I missing something?

[Ferry_25]

7 minutes ago, Negativvv said:

plus myself at the helm

Eeerr.... OP?

 

OK had my laugh. I must admit not playing mid tier BB's that much as of late. The ones I did I tried to take an optimal firing position. With the quicker BB's said ships have become playing more a mid match roll. Indeed you don't want to overextend in the beginning because there's no way back once focussed out. I must admit it has become a real chore to play them indeed.

[RUSSIANBlAS]

2 minutes ago, Ferry_25 said:

Eeerr.... OP?

 

OK had my laugh. I must admit not playing mid tier BB's that much as of late. The ones I did I tried to take an optimal firing position. With the quicker BB's said ships have become playing more a mid match roll. Indeed you don't want to overextend in the beginning because there's no way back once focussed out. I must admit it has become a real chore to play them indeed.

Lel, was joking a bit on myself at the helm 

 

If you play safe in a slow BB then you'll never get in the action and if you push too hard then no there is no way out. Whereas a fast BB can angle and sail away whilst giving the enemy the middle finger. Try the same thing in a squishy mid tier and you get chased down 

 

I'm just glad I've grinded out those tiers and played them before the fast BB invasion. Can't be too pleasant these days.

[DFens_666]

*insta liked this one*

Tried playing Colorado lately - will never go to randoms with it again. Totaly stupid (thats WITHOUT the engine module, still stock )

 

The problem is, that new line BBs are faster than those, back when you only had US/IJN lines, it was kinda okish i think. Now you have the new ones which are all faster + speedflag is even increasing the difference....

 

I remember back then when i played South Carolina... never got anywhere in time. Feels the same with Colorado

[ForlornSailor]

20 minutes ago, Negativvv said:

Maybe I'm just spoilt by fast BBs or am I missing something?

 

I noticed the same and I agree with you. Classic BB™  is dead - welcome to the world of Paperships, which can have complete fantasy stats *coughLYONcough*

 

7 minutes ago, Negativvv said:

I'm just glad I've grinded out those tiers and played them before the fast BB invasion. Can't be too pleasant these days.

 

We are atm trying to pull a friend through the low tiers with a couple of lines... its hard. He likes the game but at the same time he hates it. Shouldnt be happening.

 

 

[creamgravy]

Just wait for the RU BBs!

 

Colorado should be buffed to 27-28 knots or dropped to tier 6 and replaced with Washington + 25mm everywhere like KGV.

 

Normandie is OTT but the other tier 6 are fine.

[RUSSIANBlAS]

1 minute ago, ForlornSailor said:

 

I noticed the same and I agree with you. Classic BB™  is dead - welcome to the world of Paperships, which can have complete fantasy stats *coughLYONcough*

 

 

We are atm trying to pull a friend through the low tiers with a couple of lines... its hard. He likes the game but at the same time he hates it. Shouldnt be happening.

 

 

 

WG and their paper yeah... Normandie is more offensive to me as WG are saying a fat wide BB hull that's had a bit extra welded in the middle can do 30 knots. That little likely would have be impossible in the 1930s or not without spending money and compromising like Hood. I love the Hood in game but I don't think the real one ever hit 30knots beyond her early years.

 

I'll give WG some credit here as it's not entirely their fault. As early BBs were not designed to be fast and wouldn't have met many of the faster newer ones. Yet here they will meet quite a bit. Then again I think the RN had a few issues trying to intercept Bismarck with their slower fleets...

[ApesTogetherStronK]

1 hour ago, Negativvv said:

That being said I'm looking forward to the German T6 Hood knock off 

She's actually kind of real. She's a 'modernized' (badly in my opinion) Mackensen class Battlecruiser,  two of which were under construction at the end of WW1. I actually think that in historical terms they would have been very competent ships, so she's really not too bad. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mackensen-class_battlecruiser#/media/File:Hamburg_port_NARA-68155073_(cropped).jpg

^ 

That's the Prinz Eitel herself along with an unfinished Bayern.

 

[jss78]

I'm not quite sold on the slow speed being crippling. At least so long as its balanced by sufficient strengths.  In some games it can really bite you in the [edited], but most of the time I feel it can be mitigated with skill (=anticipation, positioning, deliberate movement).

 

Looking at it another way, I see people mostly doing more or less stationary face-tanking in their 36-knot Richelieus.

 

Maybe New Mexico and Colorado will be helped by the CV rebalance if it makes CV's more common in those tiers. They have quite strong AA. 

 

Warspite isn't even THAT slow. And the overall handling is actually great.

[RUSSIANBlAS]

13 minutes ago, jss78 said:

I'm not quite sold on the slow speed being crippling. At least so long as its balanced by sufficient strengths.  In some games it can really bite you in the [edited], but most of the time I feel it can be mitigated with skill (=anticipation, positioning, deliberate movement).

 

Looking at it another way, I see people mostly doing more or less stationary face-tanking in their 36-knot Richelieus.

 

Maybe New Mexico and Colorado will be helped by the CV rebalance if it makes CV's more common in those tiers. They have quite strong AA. 

 

Warspite isn't even THAT slow. And the overall handling is actually great.

 

There comes a certain point in the MM where it becomes very difficult to mitigate though. Like more than about 3 T8 BBs and you'll really start to struggle. I can't see WG buffing slower BBs too much as 

 

Warspite isn't that slow no but she's bad at running as her armour pattern seems to be optimised for forward facing action, high calibre guns into her stern even when angled is seriously bad news...

 

It's the combination of slow speed, mediocre armour and inferior firepower that makes the mid tiers feel like so much suffering.When you look at T8 and the standard is 30 knots with heavy armour and more than 8 high calibre guns, unless the higher tier BB is a complete potato then you're going to get squished. Vs Cruisers you've always got that chance of scoring a massive citadel vs an over aggressive player. 

[Arrive_Alive]

I recently played through New Mex / Colorado. While there were some games i couldn't carry since i couldn't even get in range to the last remaining enemies (although 7+ minutes left on the clock)....these ships were pretty fun/good. Especially New Mex is a monster, just like good old Fuso. I just love the 12-gun-shotguns.

 

I played them safe and did pretty well doing so, especially when against t8 or t9.  You really need to know when its time to go full speed into the enemy fleet before losing any chance to get close in time. Most mid-tier maps at least have some fast routes through the middle. Imagine sailing from C to A on Atlantic in a New Mex...

 

I wouldn't mind a 2kn speed buff to New York/New Mex/Colo though..

[RenamedUser_92906789]

One of the reason I sold all my mid tier BBs, excluding the premiums.

Arizona is such a brick with none existing AA, that id rather walk on embers than to play her like ever.

 

The only BB I still play at that tiers is the Sharnhorst, but I have yet to play IJN and RN BBs (not looking forward to tbh).

[EgyptOverseer]

Speed is overrated. Often in my Iowa I thought fondly of the good days of grinding the Colorado.

[puxflacet]

I will be always saying that Normandie and Lyon shouldnt go faster than 27 knots, because unlike germans they have way too much firepower for that speed

[Gojuadorai]

9 hours ago, creamgravy said:

Just wait for the RU BBs!

 

Colorado should be buffed to 27-28 knots or dropped to tier 6 and replaced with Washington + 25mm everywhere like KGV.

 

Normandie is OTT but the other tier 6 are fine.

i like this one

just one thing came to mind:

dont you think you just pass the cup along to the nagato then?

[Zen71_sniper]

9 hours ago, Negativvv said:

Lel, was joking a bit on myself at the helm 

 

If you play safe in a slow BB then you'll never get in the action and if you push too hard then no there is no way out. Whereas a fast BB can angle and sail away whilst giving the enemy the middle finger. Try the same thing in a squishy mid tier and you get chased down 

 

I'm just glad I've grinded out those tiers and played them before the fast BB invasion. Can't be too pleasant these days.

Please tell me about it.... Busy grinding Colorado .... 

[creamgravy]

Just now, Gojuadorai said:

i like this one

just one thing came to mind:

dont you think you just pass the cup along to the nagato then?

 

Nagato has always been significantly better than Colorado, 25 knots with 65,000 HP is a very nice combo.

[BLUB__BLUB]

11 hours ago, Negativvv said:

It's the combination of slow speed, mediocre armour and inferior firepower that makes the mid tiers feel like so much suffering.When you look at T8 and the standard is 30 knots with heavy armour and more than 8 high calibre guns, unless the higher tier BB is a complete potato then you're going to get squished.

Lucky for me there are so many potatoes then at T8. 

Recently I managed to gobsmack an Alabama (he was bowtanking and camping, two brothers map).

I managed to find a rock to stick my Queen E behind, repaierd what he'd do (the poor sod was fring HE as well) and shot him to bits using AP.

 

managed to sink some cruisers too that were trying to sneek around, LMAO (have you experienced the turning speed of QE turrets... mannnn...).

[RUSSIANBlAS]

12 hours ago, Marble_Eyes said:

I recently played through New Mex / Colorado. While there were some games i couldn't carry since i couldn't even get in range to the last remaining enemies (although 7+ minutes left on the clock)....these ships were pretty fun/good. Especially New Mex is a monster, just like good old Fuso. I just love the 12-gun-shotguns.

 

I played them safe and did pretty well doing so, especially when against t8 or t9.  You really need to know when its time to go full speed into the enemy fleet before losing any chance to get close in time. Most mid-tier maps at least have some fast routes through the middle. Imagine sailing from C to A on Atlantic in a New Mex...

 

I wouldn't mind a 2kn speed buff to New York/New Mex/Colo though..

There does come a point where you can start pushing but you can't really be front line as any fight vs a higher tier BB who's competent will end badly. Like the Warspite game I played the other day I had no choice but to face two Tirps. Did my HP in damage on them but the poor little ship trades un evenly even vs 15" AP. 

 

There's probably no real way around it as it's just WGs +/-2 MM. 

 

1 hour ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

Lucky for me there are so many potatoes then at T8. 

Recently I managed to gobsmack an Alabama (he was bowtanking and camping, two brothers map).

I managed to find a rock to stick my Queen E behind, repaierd what he'd do (the poor sod was fring HE as well) and shot him to bits using AP.

 

managed to sink some cruisers too that were trying to sneek around, LMAO (have you experienced the turning speed of QE turrets... mannnn...).

You're fortunate the Bama was shooting HE. 16" AP would have done terrible things to you... The guy can't have been good as they got ambushed on Two Brothers. There are those excellent games vs potatoes so slower BBs can be enjoyed but vs anyone who knows BBs then it can only really end one way. I've been chased down so many times in slow BBs by faster, better armed and armoured ones. Sure you can angle and run but that just buys you time vs competent folk. 

 

Meh probably as much as we'll get out of this. 

 

Keep calm and play 30 knot BBs, preferably with 9 or more 16" guns. Although in parting I'll say Hood is awesome at T7. Huge tactical flexibility with her speed, turret rotations and superb angled armour. For me she's succeeded the Warspite in every way.

[walter3kurtz]

Fairly recently I played through Colorado and got Warspite from a SC, had no issues in either ship. If you play a slow ship you go to a central position.

 

Don't get left behind on a flank that is suddenly empty. In some games you can't predict early enough what will happen so just pick the side where the enemy is likely to push (because your main fleet is on the other side). Once most of the enemy ships have been spotted you can start repositioning if necessary. Staying away from the flanks really helps you with that. Some maps (like two brothers) force a divide, in which case you just gamble.

[Humorpalanta]

I agree and I hope we'll get a second line of US BB and the whole rework could solve this problem.

[BLUB__BLUB]

2 hours ago, Negativvv said:

The guy can't have been good as they got ambushed on Two Brothers.

Nah he sucked, as while I was hiding behind a rock he seemed to have forgotten me, and turned his guns to shoot at something else...

Hahahah I did get in a few good hits without even being punished. And in the end, I got to finish him off. 

 

2 hours ago, Negativvv said:

Although in parting I'll say Hood is awesome at T7. Huge tactical flexibility with her speed, turret rotations and superb angled armour. For me she's succeeded the Warspite in every way.

Yes, I am happy I bought Hood instead of Warspite at last sale. 

[piritskenyer]

I blame T6 and T7 FR BB's. I have disliked them ever since I first read their stats pre-implementation (that speed makes my skin crawl).

[HaachamaShipping]

On 17.8.2018 at 12:54 AM, Negativvv said:

 

There comes a certain point in the MM where it becomes very difficult to mitigate though. Like more than about 3 T8 BBs and you'll really start to struggle. I can't see WG buffing slower BBs too much as 

 

Warspite isn't that slow no but she's bad at running as her armour pattern seems to be optimised for forward facing action, high calibre guns into her stern even when angled is seriously bad news...

 

It's the combination of slow speed, mediocre armour and inferior firepower that makes the mid tiers feel like so much suffering.When you look at T8 and the standard is 30 knots with heavy armour and more than 8 high calibre guns, unless the higher tier BB is a complete potato then you're going to get squished. Vs Cruisers you've always got that chance of scoring a massive citadel vs an over aggressive player. 

I mean, sure, there is T6 vs T8 BB. But what about T5 vs T7 BB. Only Colorado is about as slow as most T5s, but even a Scharnhorst can overpen your bow. And good luck fighting these German monsters, which likely will just rush you down, then torp you point blank, with nothing you can do. And obviously T6 can dismantle you just the same.

[RUSSIANBlAS]

39 minutes ago, Riselotte said:

I mean, sure, there is T6 vs T8 BB. But what about T5 vs T7 BB. Only Colorado is about as slow as most T5s, but even a Scharnhorst can overpen your bow. And good luck fighting these German monsters, which likely will just rush you down, then torp you point blank, with nothing you can do. And obviously T6 can dismantle you just the same.

Yeah it's just the power hike between tiers. The soft bows of T5 BBs suffer hugely vs T7, esp 16" guns although the Germans do well too. Scharn pen is impressive at close range and Gnesi is basically using T8 guns.