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dCK_Ad_Hominem

The development that makes the game less enjoyable

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Hello all, 

 

I would like to start a discusion about a topic that has been bothering me more and more as of late, class vulnerability.

 

Coming from a WoT background, the one thing I really enjoyed in wows from the get go was the ability to instantly delete an opponent, provided you played well and/or he made a mistake. Initially this held true for all classes in the game, though cruisers were mostly dpm focused even back then. 

 

The situation we find ourselves in now though differs widely. With the introduction of german bbs we saw the first ships that were not vulnerable to broadside citadels. I was very sceptic when they were introduced, but their overall armor scheme and miserable fire protection and dispersion meant they would pay a price for this. 

 

Fast forward and we have ships like the Republic which is not only a speed demon with 8 fast reloading and hard penetrating rifles, but which on top has one of the weirdest armor schemes, along with Kronstadt, in the game. 

 

The fact that even Yamato shells will deal pitiful damage most of the time just baffles me. It turned this game into the thing that drove me away from WoT: predictable HP trading in which dpm is everything. With underwater citadels, turtlebacks, and French cruiser spaced armor (so great when your two full AP salvoes against a Charles Martel yield no citadels from 6km on a flat broadside) we are seeing a rush towards invincibility to deletions. Well unless you have a king potato that eats all torps thrown his way. 

 

In all honesty: Please reverse this design decision. It is what drives this game to be so focused on bbs, greatly limits the rewards for skilled play and flat out ruins the game in a lot of ways. Heavy cruisers used to be able to citadel pretty much any bb at close range. Today it is pretty much only the yamato suffering from this. 

 

Why does one class have to be this immune to deletions while every other one is not? 

 

I would like to know what the rest of the forum and @MrConway think about this. 

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I agree in a sense, it is not too much a problem at the lower tiers. Kongou, Nagato, Amagi, Colorado, Wyoming, New York etc can all be citadeled and take heavy punishment easily. A bit because I assume most people in the lower tiers are still new to the game but also because they don't have the armour schemes of higher-tier BBs. I don't mind german turtlebacks simply because A. All the superstructure burns beautifully and B. They still take some very hard-hitting broadsides if RNG allows it. But where I believe it went wrong was the lowered citadel on the iowa, missouri and montana. Now I know this was partially because they needed just a very small buff and for historical reasons, i.e the way their armour is supposed to work. But I believe gameplay comes first and I don't believe for a minute that they needed a lowered citadel. The player should be experienced and knowledgable enough at tiers 9 and 10 to know about angling and basic game mechanics. Something that is now relatively rare, it's why I now spend a lot more of my time seal-clubbing at tier 4. 

 

tl;dr Yes, the game leans more to the RNG and luck side of things than knowledge, skill and tactics and it's a bit of ashame.

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One thing I forgot: raised citadels also allow lower tiers to defeat higher ones. Way back, when the Amagi was my highest tier ship, a Monti rushed me full broadside. Due to brown alert my aim was a bit off, but I still hit the guy for north of 60k. 

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The only correct way to play the game is to be a torpedo destroyer!

You die when someone looks at you funny but there's no ship in the game you can't nuke straight to the bottom of the sea! :Smile_izmena:

 

But, in all seriousness, one of the big problems of the game is indeed BB (lack of) vulnerability to other BBs. Since a BB tends to need a lot of time to take down an enemy BB, even a potato one, the obvious solution is to focus down the other classes. And here comes the situation where cruisers can be roughly divided into four groups:

1. Cruisers lobbing shells above islands

2. Cruisers shooting from smoke

3. Cruisers that show you their butt at max range and try kiting away while scoring some damage

4. Cruisers that don't shoot at all because they're dead or they know they will be if they open fire :Smile-_tongue:

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2 Cruisers firing HE at one BB. BB dies, problem solved.

 

 

The only development that makes the game less enjoyable are players in high tiers with no clue how to play the game because WG failed to introduce proper tutorials from the get go.

Everything else is manageable.

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A big reason why we have KM bbs like they are is because of wg wanting easier gameplay and ships, because they think the game is to hard. I mean when the CCs questioned about the conq on that Q/A thing, they said that its meant to be a 20km + HE spammer, no cit. Lines seem to be coming in to counter other lines, with the introduction of the KM line, the bow in meta spread into higher tiers and to every single bb line. So they brought in german HE (I think that came in after) and the RN bb line to counter it. I am happy to say that more and more fun ships have been added to game, as seen in tx, ships like the Wooster, mino, yy ect.

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44 minutes ago, CptMinia said:

I agree in a sense, it is not too much a problem at the lower tiers. Kongou, Nagato, Amagi, Colorado, Wyoming, New York etc can all be citadeled and take heavy punishment easily.

 

Now think what all those ships have in common....

Also, ive come to Colorado lately, after getting the NM through with Operations basicly, there is NO reason to play Colorado. Its slow, it hits like crap, it has a citadel. If i wanna play T7 id go for Nelson or DoY any time instead of this shitship. Even Nagato is much better because it has atleast speed :cap_old:

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16 minutes ago, Jethro_Grey said:

2 Cruisers firing HE at one BB. BB dies, problem solved.

 

 

The only development that makes the game less enjoyable are players in high tiers with no clue how to play the game because WG failed to introduce proper tutorials from the get go.

Everything else is manageable.

 

Except that you typically have 5 BBs per team and maybe 4 cruisers if MM is feeling generous instead of just 2 cruisers and dumping another 5 DDs per team in the mix.

 

Now take a guess what 5 BBs do to 2 cruisers ...

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29 minutes ago, Jethro_Grey said:

2 Cruisers firing HE at one BB. BB dies, problem solved.

 

 

The only development that makes the game less enjoyable are players in high tiers with no clue how to play the game because WG failed to introduce proper tutorials from the get go.

Everything else is manageable.

This wasn't my point though. The point was that bbs really have no reason to shoot their counter parts, because those are just too immune to gun damage at the current time. 

 

When your choices are:

-20k on the bb with a good salvo (~20% of its hp)

- deleting a cruiser (85% of its hp upwards)

-blapping a dd for 10k (~50% of its hp)

 

It becomes quite apparent which targets are worth it and which not. And honestly, I would love to see a bb that managed to sneak up on another one to get massively rewarded. Once encountered a bot whose Iowa sailed full broadside to my Missouri. Result? 2 salvos, 1 citadel, about 25k damage. From 2km out. Sorry, but this is just laughable. A dd trying to pull that stunt will suffer massive hp loss he can't heal back. And that one is supposed to counter bbs.

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19 minutes ago, Aotearas said:

 

Except that you typically have 5 BBs per team and maybe 4 cruisers if MM is feeling generous instead of just 2 cruisers and dumping another 5 DDs per team in the mix.

 

Now take a guess what 5 BBs do to 2 cruisers ...

With the teams i have? Nothing.

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1 hour ago, dCK_Ad_Hominem said:

Way back, when the Amagi was my highest tier ship, a Monti rushed me full broadside.

 

Not that I disagree with your point, but how do you rush full broadside?

Like this?

Spoiler

 

:Smile_trollface:

 

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Just now, El2aZeR said:

 

Not that I disagree with your point, but how do you rush full broadside?

Like this?

  Hide contents

 

:Smile_trollface:

 

:D. Love that scene. To answer your question. He pushed between a and b on North, exposing his flat broadside to me. 

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1 hour ago, dCK_Ad_Hominem said:

In all honesty: Please reverse this design decision. It is what drives this game to be so focused on bbs, greatly limits the rewards for skilled play and flat out ruins the game in a lot of ways. Heavy cruisers used to be able to citadel pretty much any bb at close range. Today it is pretty much only the yamato suffering from this.

This goes both ways though. You weren't able to delete the Martel in your Yama either. I agree to some extent that broadsailing closely should be punished harder. As it is now, there are too many overpens if you stay completely broadside - that shouldn't be the smart play. Both bbs and cruisers should suffer more from citadel hits. Otoh it might detract even more from brawling.

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30 minutes ago, dCK_Ad_Hominem said:

It becomes quite apparent which targets are worth it and which not. And honestly, I would love to see a bb that managed to sneak up on another one to get massively rewarded. Once encountered a bot whose Iowa sailed full broadside to my Missouri. Result? 2 salvos, 1 citadel, about 25k damage. From 2km out. Sorry, but this is just laughable. A dd trying to pull that stunt will suffer massive hp loss he can't heal back. And that one is supposed to counter bbs.

Well, as for your mention of DDs - if a DD gets within 2km of your Missouri, chances are it won't be just him suffering a massive hp loss he can't heal back :Smile-_tongue:

Most DDs are pretty adept at countering BBs at auto-spotting ranges, the reason they don't try this often lies within the other 3-4 km between 2km distance and their concealment :Smile_teethhappy:

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2 hours ago, dCK_Ad_Hominem said:

Heavy cruisers used to be able to citadel pretty much any bb at close range.

 

Maybe your thinking of the time when ships almost tipped over when turning, exposing the underside to to everyone? Most BBs have always been almost impossible to citadel reliably when flat.

 

 

 

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