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dasCKD

The Damage Farm [BB Plague III]

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Sadly I think you're right, the only victims of the changes will be cruisers. Watched a Harugumo game by Flamu, he solo'ed a Hindenburg with ease.

WG thinks they know what to do but with what they are doing I have zero confidence in them. Having more dakka seems to be the solution for them. Just look at the reload consumable for French ships...

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2 minutes ago, Aragathor said:

Sadly I think you're right, the only victims of the changes will be cruisers. Watched a Harugumo game by Flamu, he solo'ed a Hindenburg with ease.

WG thinks they know what to do but with what they are doing I have zero confidence in them. Having more dakka seems to be the solution for them. Just look at the reload consumable for French ships...

It's just that more and more, WG seems like it wants to move away from the game mechanic of utilizing armor correctly to one where all that matters is pure armor thickness as overmatch and HE pen dictates the damage rather than understanding of armor scheme and feints.

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Tier 10 dakka has always outstripped survivability by a huge margin, that's what defines tier 10 game play. Snipe at max range or use islands as shields. Radar, huge 32mm BBs, OWSF removal, etc has just made it more extreme.

 

...and why does everyone always say "the only victims of the changes will be cruisers"????

 

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1 minute ago, creamgravy said:

Tier 10 dakka has always outstripped survivability by a huge margin, that's what defines tier 10 game play. Snipe at max range or use islands as shields. Radar, huge 32mm BBs, OWSF removal, etc has just made it more extreme.

Yes, but previously AP, angling, and understanding armor scheme mattered. Now, whilst the Harugumo or Worceter is technically more effective with Ap, their HE DPM is so obscene that against the targets that their HE shells can penetrate, armor choice and angling become largely immaterial.

1 minute ago, creamgravy said:

...and why does everyone always say "the only victims of the changes will be cruisers"????

Because the biggest victims of ships like the Worceter and the Harugumo are other cruisers. Battleships either have the armor (Yamato, Montana, Kurfurst) to avoid a large chunk of the damage or other methods of getting out of the way or sustaining withering fire (Republique and Conqueror) and in all cases they have significantly more health than cruisers. Destroyers don't need to fear the Harugumo any more than, say, a Gearing, Yueyang, or the upcoming Daring. It's the moderately thin skilled but visible ships like the cruisers that get hit the hardest with this ship.

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[TC1S]
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Excellent post. In essence, Weegee keeps dumbing down the game more & more.

 

Congrats to you for writing all that.

Congrats to me for reading all that - I deserve a beer.

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[NWP]
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After yesterday's Night of the short ranged Cruiser (19 games in DM with reload mod) this post spoke deeply to me.

I've been thinking about this lately, and although I'm a smart boy (my mommy told me so), the only "solution" I came up with was: If you can't beat them, join them.
The past months I haven't played any BBs with few exceptions - namely Missouri in which I average over 100k damage in the said period - it's absurdly powerful, just like ALL the BB's around that tier (and being baddie as I truly am, I used the radar maybe in one in 20 games for a great effect).

 

It is time to change that, it's time to stop gimping myself - French BBs here I come.
image.png.11ab88fc4c97d7f2a5347d4e137f4d96.png
 

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[COMFY]
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Very good read, although I would like to say that Yamato is pretty much the only t10 bb left that has a easy to hit citadel if you manage to penetrate the armor, including the weakness under its cheek. Also, I would like to dispute on the part on the Kurry, it uses a incremental armor scheme which means while that more of the ships is protected from gunfire, but at the cost of raw armor thickness of the all or nothing system, thus while you cannot lolpen it or citadel it suffers worse from being perforated by focus fire, which is not exactly uncommon at sub 10km if it shows any amount of side, since more ap shells can pen, arm and detonate inside. It also actually has the thinnest belt armor in fact of all t10, at 380mm along the sides, but in return 50mm on the bow and stern.

 

The main problem i find with the kurry’s design is that only the kurry can actually brawl exceedingly well, Montana on its current state can somewhat do it, conquer has no secondarys and you’re better off spamming HE at it from long range, French bbs can use speed and Fast reload and Yamato is going banzai mode if she is entering brawling range, so it’s more of the lack of motivation to actually brawl with the kurry, since trying to do so with it is a death sentence for most bbs in most situations.

 

A balanced Map design as always been a problem since the dawn of time, Since it is hard to not design maps that can effectively render certain ships  useless/ineffective, e.g. a map which encourages close range battles as in large amounts of high islands, it will literally be a kurry’s, dds and more aggressive/high dpm cruisers’ wet dream and at the same time Yamato and RU crusiers’ worst nightmare

 

 improvements in survivability is always good in my opinion, but doing it to just one class is not gonna make it balanced, As I have found in cruisers while viewing the armour viewer, I noticed that pretty much all of them have a above waterline citadel, making them far easier to delete,even from the bow, but notable ones like Worcester and Des Moines can generate absurd amount of dpm in a glass cannon esq way, and relies on speed and mavuablity as defence In theory. In practice though, the slow shell speed makes it ineffective Against their intended counters aka other cruisers and dds, but the shell arcs means that farming damage on bbs with HE shells from the safely of islands is very easy. One suggestion i can make is to drop all above waterline citadel hitboxes to the waterline/ slightly above it, thus boosting survivability of all ships, encouraging aggressive plays more often + more open maps so less camping spots

 

as for the HE spam, WG’s idea that HE should be a reliable damage method is,pretty flawed, as in real life, you only shoot HE at shore installations, AP shell at anything that floats in general, only justication of using HE shells is early RN dreadnoughts, since they do have specially designed HE shells to basically do what HE shells do here, pound the opposition to dust by sheer volume of fire, while here a DDs can effectively pound a freaking Yamato to death using nothing but its guns. Sadly however I cannot think up a viable solution to shift the power Form HE spam back to thinking about where to hit with AP while still having a semi-reliable but trickle damage source to fall back apart from making ap hit even harder/nerfing HE pen damage( as in reducing the 33% listed HE shell dmg for pen to something like 20%) for ALL ships.

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Excellent post, i've noticed the increase usage of HE over AP and dumbing down of game mechanics. Mind you this reminds me of world of tanks with the jap super heavies that just slap you in face for around 500-750 damage per shell regardless of armour them also having high armour values themselves.

 

Map balance will almost be impossible to balance with more 'things' added to the equation due to the need to try and cater for every party not to mention sub-varients in each group.

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1 hour ago, BrigadierRosen said:

Excellent post, i've noticed the increase usage of HE over AP and dumbing down of game mechanics. Mind you this reminds me of world of tanks with the jap super heavies that just slap you in face for around 500-750 damage per shell regardless of armour them also having high armour values themselves.

 

Map balance will almost be impossible to balance with more 'things' added to the equation due to the need to try and cater for every party not to mention sub-varients in each group.

This reminds me of WoT :  premium ammo for credits and the changes made to armour, ending in full retarded mode of premium ammo spam ... few months later left WoT forever :)

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Good post. I have one question though. If WG was trying to increase the amount of meaningless damage and decrease the potency of ships that deal crippling damage, what are we to make of the PA DDs? Their torpedoes are exceptionally well-suited to cripple larger ships after all.

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[SCRUB]
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I tried to quote you and do a [snip], but it broke the editor temporarily, so i just reloaded the page. 

 

Great analisys, I wonder where you find the time to think this much about the whys and hows.

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7 hours ago, Blixies said:

the only "solution" I came up with was: If you can't beat them, join them.

 

And that is exactly the entire essence behind all of it. Thats what WG wants us all to do - jump from new line to new line, to utilize all the new and better features. Thats whats keeping the players busy and a busy player will.. spend money. The ultimate goal of Freemium. Now, you can think this is normal, caplitalistic, bad, evil, justified - what ever. Doesnt chance the fact, that we are all part of this business model. I also came to the conclusion, thats why many ships during testing are a liiitle bit too powerful. Give it to the supertesters and the CCs, so they show those extra-strong upcoming ships on the servers, Youtube, Twitch etc. Everyone thinks "oh boy, look at this ship, if I only had this, I´d be finaly as good as *insert name of streamer here*". And in the end, they balance the ship down a little. But the impression and the Youtube-videos are here to stay. Just my five cents on top of the nice summary, that @dasCKD wrote.

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8 hours ago, Riselotte said:

Good post. I have one question though. If WG was trying to increase the amount of meaningless damage and decrease the potency of ships that deal crippling damage, what are we to make of the PA DDs? Their torpedoes are exceptionally well-suited to cripple larger ships after all.

Well, the Pan Asian destroyers really aren't an escalation in arms. They have stealthier torpedoes than their American counterparts, but that doesn't matter much for a battleship and matters even less for the cruisers if they arm themselves with hydroacoustics. They very much are a holding pattern where the upcoming French and British DDs are a move towards delayed damage.

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Wargaming has been slowly, but surely, pushing the HE dakka dakka meta for a long time now. RN BB's were the first experiment in that. I wouldn't have issue with it, but lobbing  such shells with such high fire chances isn't skill, any idiot can aim decently in a game with a built in auto aim. Between that and RNG, is how Wargaming has decided to effectively neuter skill, and I personally think that is why the average numbers have dropped so far; about a year and a half, two years ago, average numbers during prime time were easily 40k on EU, these days I rarely see that go above 20k, and most days (even now during an event AND Clan Wars) I see it hover around 18-19,000. 

Myself and a fair number of other clan members have a special issue with the Worcester, in that, it can always control when and where it engages (due to radar+amazing concealment) and can melt a high tier CA in under a minute, or a Repub or Conq in two. It's fine for randoms, but in competitive it's just too much. 

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16 hours ago, dasCKD said:

The game is moving away from cleverly using armor and maneuverability to defeat the enemy towards just pumping as many shells into the enemy as possible until they die and I think that is a real shame.

This.

 

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[FJAKA]
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they are numbing this game down....but on other hand implementation of radar on almost all new ships drastically increase classical DD game.....and solution is....dakka dakka dds.

 

it is all becoming FB style game where you will need to press 1 button, everybody will be able to do 50 k dmg....everybody happy.

 

and this community deserves that....anything that required skill or team play was under "nerf" attack, primarly CVs and IJN torpedos

 

now play idiotic 1 button game.

 

p.s.

i have seen "nerf" posts from guys (primary fro cvs) who now whine in this topic....you are also part of the problem not a solution

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TL;DR

Design of game moves further away from strategy planning and tactical play, to a more brutal approach focused on damage and damage-dealing plays. The new ship designs emphasize this and the upcoming carrier influence nerf is foreboding of this trajectory. In hindsight, the favouring of Battleships and these design directions revolved around damage can be explained primarily by WG's (perceived) conclusion that psychologically these are the "best" game mechanics to please players with, and the type of mechanics they can best design and balance around.

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[BOATY]
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Nice post which pretty much mirrors my thoughts. I just came back from a longer WoWs break. I left about when the RN BB came out and so at a time when WG obviously decided to take it down to HE-City where the grass is green and... I still remember when the RN CLs came out and WG, shortly before their release, decided to take away their HE shells since back then the player base was still on the edge over HE-spam. Too recent were the memories of stealth fire DDs setting BBs on fire...

I came back after the US CLs were released deciding to finally get the Yamato so am currently mostly playing the Japanese BB line. While playing the Izumo I became amazed about the amount of HE shells that is flying around these days.
Basically I am constantly on fire (not whining about that, as I can heal it away) and had to turn down the volume of my speakers because the taka-taka-taka started to annoy the missus. I have games where I tank 2-3 million points of possible damage and use up all my heals before I finally, after 10 minutes of being the damage dealt-pinata that the Izumo seems to be, grant someone the kill or win the game. However no ship other than a CV, which you rarely see these days, poses an instant threat anymore. I am just a small moving vulcano island that occasionally spits back a few rocks but mostly gets stoned with hot pebbles and happily fills the atmosphere with thick black smoke.
I still like the game, I have good rounds and I have bad rounds, but I don't like the current direction we are heading to. It's like WoWs almost wants to become a RPG with tanks, healers and damage dealers. But since there are no healers the damage dealers have to deal damage over time instead and the tanks have means to neglect that.

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Idk i find sec build musashi with yammamoto on it hilarious of late :cap_book:

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4 hours ago, Reaper_JackGBR said:

Wargaming has been slowly, but surely, pushing the HE dakka dakka meta for a long time now. RN BB's were the first experiment in that.

 

True, I noticed that a few days ago myself. RN BBs --> US CLs --> now IJN gunboat DDs.

 

4 hours ago, Reaper_JackGBR said:

Myself and a fair number of other clan members have a special issue with the Worcester, in that, it can always control when and where it engages (due to radar+amazing concealment) and can melt a high tier CA in under a minute, or a Repub or Conq in two. It's fine for randoms, but in competitive it's just too much. 

 

I dont think its fine anywhere tbh. Atm, if you are an aggressive BB in high tiers (especially in the start), you are pretty much an idiot. Well fine, look for some other BB player then. Im neither going to change my style to be a back-camping BB in T8+ and I sure am not going to sit in range of an Island-Worcester watching at the BBQ he is having on my main deck. I simply wont play a BB in High Tiers anymore.

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I liked the picture :Smile_great:

 

Could you perhaps formulate the issue in one sentence?

Is it this - "The game is moving away from cleverly using armor and maneuverability to defeat the enemy towards just pumping as many shells into the enemy as possible until they die and I think that is a real shame."?  ..and the cruisers are suffering, but not all of them..? So bbs are fine, dds are fine, some cruisers are fine. Which ones aren't good now?

Is it in high tier the issue is mostly occurring? I think at least tier 10 is fairly well balanced tbh.

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13 hours ago, ForlornSailor said:

 

And that is exactly the entire essence behind all of it. Thats what WG wants us all to do - jump from new line to new line, to utilize all the new and better features. Thats whats keeping the players busy and a busy player will.. spend money. The ultimate goal of Freemium. Now, you can think this is normal, caplitalistic, bad, evil, justified - what ever. Doesnt chance the fact, that we are all part of this business model. I also came to the conclusion, thats why many ships during testing are a liiitle bit too powerful. Give it to the supertesters and the CCs, so they show those extra-strong upcoming ships on the servers, Youtube, Twitch etc. Everyone thinks "oh boy, look at this ship, if I only had this, I´d be finaly as good as *insert name of streamer here*". And in the end, they balance the ship down a little. But the impression and the Youtube-videos are here to stay. Just my five cents on top of the nice summary, that @dasCKD wrote.

 

That's the very basic problem: Wargaming business model is around grinding and only around grinding. Maybe some what-if-scenario could enlighten this: What if WoWs would be F2P up to tier V, and premium-only at higher tiers? Nearly everything around the core mechanics would be different then, and IMHO it would be far better. And it could be profitable, don't know whether as profitable as current WoWs (which seems to be far away from being a cash cow anyway).

 

The other problem is that Wargaming wants this game to be a shooter game. The game mechanics are too complex for a shooter game, or a shooter game playerbase is too stupid for WoWs mechanics, or both. Maybe this grind-thing is the only way to make money with the actual playerbase, but it is no longer the game I want to play. This is why I stopped playing WoWs, while still following the development, but I don't see any news which would make me start this game again.

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