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Griva

Clan battles season 3 rating changes

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Recently I realised that in this season it is way harder to get higher leagues (typhoon and hurricane), I wanted to share my thoughts and confirm if it's true.

 

Let's start with hard data: if you check season 2 data you can see that in the previous season (according to WG data) 4,7 % of all clans got into hurricane league.

Spoiler

e507c708-47a8-11e8-9a6a-ac162d8bc1e4.jpg

If this is true (personally I don't belive it) then around 240~ clans (?) reached hurricane league.

Even if this is not true you can check in game client just now that you can see at least 25 hurricane clans there for season 2 (last position ending with 112 points so there are way more).

Personally I remember at least 50 clans in hurricane so it's still safe to say there was at least 50 clans there.

 

Now If you check hall of fame for this season  you can see only 14 clans in hurricane league and only 5 more clan wars days left until the end of this season.

There are few reasons for that and one of them for sure is that this season is in the middle of summer but this can't explain what is happening here.

 

I don't know how exactly mathematically prove my theory but I will try to explain it now:

For this season WG introduced system of Alpha and Bravo division and thank you very much for it the idea itself is very good but  I see WG totaly skipped consequences of this mechanic.

At the beggning of this season it was insanely easy to get storm league - the reason for this was that whole season started with "dobule" points becuase everyone started with 50-150 points in each of their rating.

In result the initial flow of points allowed everyone to go higher faster (first week).

 

Currently becuase of ratings there are "not enough points" for everyone to get higher. Why? First of all a lot of clans used their both divs only for first part of season, this way points were distributed between double amount of ratings and these points "stuck" there now, stolen by everyone and closed in their Bravo division. It's even worse if you consider the fact that good clans stole twice number of points in their both ratings.

As reference, clan rating is based on elo rating and I want to note that in this rating number ot points is not infinite, number of points is determined by number of participants.

 

// EDIT - better explanation in spoiler

Spoiler

To make it even more simple - many clans got second rating at least in Storm. Normally when you play your main division and you win against weaker clan you get their points and later if you lose, these points flow between better clans.

When you or any other clan play the second rating then all points you get "stuck" there and becuase you are strong enough to keep winning at least 50% of games you don't allow them to leak to main pool.

 

This way, this season we got twice less points to distribute between clans in result you have to win way more to take points from other clans + in addition becuase difference in ranking is not so big you meet the same enemies all the time and this way  points flow only between same clans, not many points "show up" in pool.

To return to the old system you need to "release" all points from all bravo divisions of all clans...

 

I'm not going to complain hard about this but personally I think this is kind of unfair or rather WG broken their own system.

All rewards were not changed, WG promised stalingrad for 3 typhoon but there was not consequence in difficulty level and whole point distribution.

You  can tell me "this season was more competetive" and it may be true but that was not intended - it's WG incompetence in this case and it was not announced at the beggning of the season.

 

What is your opinion about this guys?

 

Can you tell us something about distribution for this season?

@Tuccy

@MrConway

 

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[TTTX]
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is what you're describing (fewer clans in the top leagues/harder to get there) happening? In my experience, yes.

Is that a problem? I don't know, something for WG to decide (they know how they want their leagues to be structured I suppose) and fix if deemed necessary..-

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The answer is really simple:

 

1599082_1

 

I think WG couldn't have :etc_swear:ed up this season more if they tried to.

 

B teams = sealclubbing doubled. Now you didn't have just the 1st 1...2 weeks sealclubbed in lower ranks, you double that.

 

You thought teams have layered out as the best clans rushed ahead and you can now play against "your own level"? Why would those "top clans" play for +10 / -35 points, if they can spend their time stomping you again and again till both of their teams are similar rating + top leagues a little bit more?

 

Why would they risk their "rank" with testing tactics, having fun, training new recruits, or just farming Stalingrad flags for those who don't play in the "main rating" if they can do exactly that just without the slightest risk to their rating?

 


 

The long queue times already show you that so so many clans have probably quit this season, simply given up on it.

Going through the Gold, now sitting in the lower Typhoon - MM didn't change even a little bit, it's the same exact clans that we were fighting against that we are still fighing against.

And this season being 6 sessions or so shorter than previous  seasons doesn't help either.

 

Oh, yeah, almost forgot, best part about B teams is the point gain:

  • Lets say team A is Gold 2, and they are about the skill level of a mid-Gold team
  • Lets say team B is Hurricane, but they play their "Bravo" rating which is Gold 3
  • They queue up, and get matched up vs each other
  • B team wipes the floor with A team, clearly outclassing them as it is Hurricane vs mid-Gold
  • Team A loses MORE THAN AVERAGE (lets say 25...27) points bcuz they fought against a "weaker Gold 3 team"

 

Please tell me how that is not complete and absolute bulls**t

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[TSUN]
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33 minutes ago, Griva said:

Recently I realised that in this season it is way harder to get higher leagues (typhoon and hurricane), I wanted to share my thoughts and confirm if it's true.

Yes, It's true and my clan ( Pnavy ) are experiencing it. I was told that WG changed the matchmaking system in Clan Battles and as far as I see the results I can believe that to some extent.

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38 minutes ago, Griva said:

What is your opinion about this guys?

 

The majority of clans are not participating in clan wars. I think MrConway dropped a precise number somewhere in the forum.

Jacking up the difficulty of progressing through the leagues will in the short and long term make Clan Battles unappealing to even more clans. It's already impossible for many to play during Prime Time or get enough people to participate.

It will also make people question whether the rewards are achievable for above average players. Last season my clan put in the effort and the main CB team almost got the Stalingrad flag, almost because we had severe technical problems during last week, no fault of WG. Now we are stuck in mid storm and frankly I am losing interest in CBs. The rewards look paltry compared to the time and energy invested. So I might be better off not playing next season, if the best my team can achieve is mid storm, because it feels too much like work to even get storm rewards.

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1 hour ago, Tyrendian89 said:

Is that a problem? I don't know, something for WG to decide (they know how they want their leagues to be structured I suppose) and fix if deemed necessary..

It's WG :Smile_hiding:, even if they know they forgot to balance new feature - it's actually common thing in games but it's very important to balance new things with old ones (for example cards in card games) because you can break game.

For me as long as it's said at the beggning (clear rules) then it's fine - it's fair but in this scenario something is broken and you can't call it feature.

 

The problem is not that it's way harder itself but the fact a lot of clans assuming the same rules as previously and for example getting steel for stalingrad will be the same. WG changed a little way how you get it but in final result it would be the same but it's not because you can't do the same thing as in previous season - you need to put like twice time and effort.  I bet a lot of Storm clans would not play that much if they knew it's not possible to get higher for them...

Plus thing is we are talking only about hurricane league not even mentioning the typhoon leage :E

 

 

Quote

The majority of clans are not participating in clan wars

Yes but this says 5081 is not total number of clans but all clans playing that season (I guess) - anyway in season 2 there was few dozen of clans in hurricane (personally I remember at least 50).

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[BLAST]
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Yes, it does seem more difficult to progress this season, and that leaves teams feeling they are going backwards. The Bravo team is great when we have a poor turnout, and have to rely on less experienced players and rental ships. But I think many clans may use the bravo team as anchor, before progressing with the alpha team. For example, a team might not want to lose their storm league status, so will progress their bravo team into storm before continuing to fight as alpha team. And ofc, this clan battle season is shorter.

 

But lets look at some stats to compare:

 

http://maplesyrup.sweet.coocan.jp/wows/cvc/season03/info06_eu.html

 

http://maplesyrup.sweet.coocan.jp/wows/cvc/season02/info06_eu.html

 

Less teams in higher divisions. Much less battles played, but not a big difference in the number of clans participating. Less battles maybe that summer feeling, or maybe clans struggling to deal with attrition.

Not sure how this site gathers its statistics, maybe an undocumented API.

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[DC_DK]
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Its summer how many do you expect to play?? Our main team decided even before the season started not to play, for the exact same reason. It has only been our casual part that have been playing in this season.

So nature and summer might screw the normal stats up. Don't know how many clans playing at theirs strongest???

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Problem = timing 

 

1. world cup in football

2. summer time - players has gone to vacation, to seaside ect..ect..

 

So clans that have problem to collect 7 player now had no chance to play and there is like at least 50% or more clans like that - for example my clan and me was 30+ wins in Typhoon last season and in this we hardly get to 30 wins Storm, first we had hard time to collect 7 players and than when we had we played vs almost only strong clans in Storm ( stronger than last season in Typhoon ) 

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worst season till now.

MM is bad (you can play one team 3-4 times in one evening and when you are in top it is just battle against same teams)

map rotation is bad (you can get one map more than half evening)

map spawns are bad (and that map will constantly spawn you on same side)

 

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Just one point I will make: With the current way MM works and how nobody can progress much, the lower level clans will stop playing alltogether. And if nobody plays CBs anymore, guess what happens. Waiting 2-3 minutes in queue to constantly be matched with a clan higher than you (never lower for some reason) also means that people will just stop playing.

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Also with alpha and bravo teams, the top clans actually push out TWO not just one clan out of higher rankings simply because they get to typhoon/hurricane twice... I dont think weve played against any clan lower than storm even with out bravo in a very long while... Its mostly typhoon clans with a few storm or hurricane clans.... Everyone else just stopped playing for most part.

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17 minutes ago, DJ_Die said:

Also with alpha and bravo teams, the top clans actually push out TWO not just one clan out of higher rankings simply because they get to typhoon/hurricane twice... I dont think weve played against any clan lower than storm even with out bravo in a very long while... Its mostly typhoon clans with a few storm or hurricane clans.... Everyone else just stopped playing for most part.

at least before storm clans were matched against typhoon/hurricane only once in a while. now with bravo teams they can face them all the time.

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6 minutes ago, DJ_Die said:

Also with alpha and bravo teams, the top clans actually push out TWO not just one clan out of higher rankings simply because they get to typhoon/hurricane twice..

 

Yeah, I said that a week (?) back as well. The bravo teams take the spots of normal clans. That means that if for example 100 clans were typhoon last season, this season it will only be 50 (supposing they all have a bravo team running). I know not everyone does this, but a LOT of clans seem to. Though I like the idea of bravo teams, its implementation breaks the whole clan season's point economy. Combined with the weird MM... Well as I said within our own clan, I am genuinly afraid that CBs will die out if they keep it the way it is now. I know I myself will probably not play the next CBs if nothing significant changes.

For me it also feels like there is some major burn-out going around. CBs and Ranked are back to back, so we are playing competitive all year round. And even if you don't play ranked (like me), with all the stuff going on in the game and clan battles generally not counting for any missions, it means I would need to play 6-7 hours on CB days?

I also don't get why this clan season is shorter, while it is during summer holidays. A LOT of people are on vacation, so that means we have even less time. Ah well.

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44 minutes ago, Loran_Battle said:

Just one point I will make: With the current way MM works and how nobody can progress much, the lower level clans will stop playing alltogether. And if nobody plays CBs anymore, guess what happens. Waiting 2-3 minutes in queue to constantly be matched with a clan higher than you (never lower for some reason) also means that people will just stop playing.

The way WG "balanced" operations to make them too hard for random players, I'd say that's the point of the changes.

Make the mode too hard for everyone save some unicum clans that push themselves to get to Hurricane. Because I can't think of any other reason for the changes.

 

13 minutes ago, Loran_Battle said:

For me it also feels like there is some major burn-out going around. CBs and Ranked are back to back, so we are playing competitive all year round.

WG is overdoing it. People won't play all the time, and they will not limit themselves to demanding competitive modes.

I don't have problems with competitive modes, but I'd rather play randoms.

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I'd like war gaming to come up with some numbers. We would all like to know how many players and clans are playing how many battles and if it differs greatly between this season and the previous one. 

 

Also the alpha-bravo thingy is screwing with MM. As already discussed it prevents clans to progress at a decent rate because they keep running into higher placed teams all the time. 

 

Also it seems like victories earn less points then they did in previous seasons, also contributing to the slower progression up the ranks. 

 

All in all, frustrating season. Changes are needed. Maybe skip summer "seasons" all together because... well.... summer. But I can imagine from a WG PoV that it's necessary to keep players playing the game throughout these weeks. 

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Well according to maplesyrup we have something like 16679 Clans in the game (05.08). 

In S1 a total of 1426 Clans played CBs, 11352 didnt played.

In S2 a total of 1526 Clans played CBs, 13795 didnt played.

In S3 until the 05.08. 1323 Clans played CBs, 15348 didnt played. 

 

Also regarding Alpha and Bravo, the API only takes the data from the highest rating team from my knowledge. I dont know if its possible to get to the data for both teams. 

 

Sources:

http://maplesyrup.sweet.coocan.jp/wows/ranking/index.html

http://maplesyrup.sweet.coocan.jp/wows/cvc/season01/info09_eu.html

http://maplesyrup.sweet.coocan.jp/wows/cvc/season02/info10_eu.html

http://maplesyrup.sweet.coocan.jp/wows/cvc/season03/info06_eu.html

 

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Besides summer and outside factors. As others here have mentioned, the whole alpha/bravo system just messed this season up entirely. Delaying the time needed to get storm/typhoon fully populated, meaning many who could contend for the stalingrad flag just gave up (or even some people in my clan who just about is starting to have people finish the 30 wins, have people who gave up on it weeks ago, and as a clan that just barely sniffed at purple last season, we struggle just to stay in typhoon, yet we win against the same, lose against the same, and play even against the same clans).  Getting a top10 clan in 3 battles within 10 just makes the efforts against even level clans (we barely get anything lower ever) moot, especially when they're in a bravo team that takes 20+ points away.

 

I don't mind at all that hurricane is a bit more high end than it was, but at the moment the entire league is shifted one tier down making for a very frustrating time.

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41 minutes ago, konean said:

Also regarding Alpha and Bravo, the API only takes the data from the highest rating team from my knowledge. I dont know if its possible to get to the data for both teams. 

 

I think the in-game clan pages source their data from a webserver, so it should be possible to get data for both teams. I don't think any of this data is available from the publicly documented API servers though, AFAIK.

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I think that Alpha and Bravo is good system because it let 2 team to have fun and enjoy Clan Battles in the same way - if we had only 1 team than only the best off would play and all other will feel like "persona non grata" and will make a lot of fight between members of the clan,, in Alpha/Bravo all can play so IMHO that is a step in good direction...

 

Problem mainly is timing of this season of clan battles - it would be better that Ranked was in this last 2 month and than in September they should put Clan Battles ...

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6 minutes ago, VooDooZG_Nervozni_Purger said:

I think that Alpha and Bravo is good system because it let 2 team to have fun and enjoy Clan Battles in the same way - if we had only 1 team than only the best off would play and all other will feel like "persona non grata" and will make a lot of fight between members of the clan,, in Alpha/Bravo all can play so IMHO that is a step in good direction...

 

Problem mainly is timing of this season of clan battles - it would be better that Ranked was in this last 2 month and than in September they should put Clan Battles ...

Alpha and Bravo should get separate mentions in the leaderboard. This way you can clearly see where both teams of clans are. I mean, bravo rating is fun and all, but if your alpha team is in typhoon your bravo team still fights typhoon teams even if they are still in gale. 

And that goes beyond the whole "let's have two ratings so people can enjoy clan battles without the pressure of competitive gaming". 

 

 

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10 minutes ago, GarrusBrutus said:

Alpha and Bravo should get separate mentions in the leaderboard. This way you can clearly see where both teams of clans are. I mean, bravo rating is fun and all, but if your alpha team is in typhoon your bravo team still fights typhoon teams even if they are still in gale. 

And that goes beyond the whole "let's have two ratings so people can enjoy clan battles without the pressure of competitive gaming". 

 

I would like to see separate alpha/bravo teams in the ratings league. I'm not sure the bravo team does share the same match maker rating, it appears to be independent to me at the lower leagues. I did ask this question of the WG staff at the beginning of the season, but got no answer to the questions that they should be able to answer. Thanks for the community for resolving the other issues which where either user error or user stupidity depending on your point of view!

 

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9 minutes ago, GarrusBrutus said:

Alpha and Bravo should get separate mentions in the leaderboard. This way you can clearly see where both teams of clans are. I mean, bravo rating is fun and all, but if your alpha team is in typhoon your bravo team still fights typhoon teams even if they are still in gale. 

And that goes beyond the whole "let's have two ratings so people can enjoy clan battles without the pressure of competitive gaming". 

 

 

 

hmmm my Alpha team is in the Storm and my Bravo is in gale and are definitely playing vs gale clan's ..

 

I see Alpha and Bravo team as good solution to all my clan members have chance to play clan battles, when there was only 1 team than we would wait for our best players to be online and play and that create a lot of frustration to other members that was online but couldn't play - in fact that made us 12 or more gone from CCN clan to our clan  last season in the middle of the season - there will be a lot of frustration with only 1 team in clan and Alpha/Bravo to me is a very good solution to all of those problems  ..

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[IDDQD]
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I think that big change in current season is point reward system. In previous seasons when you lost to much better clan you lost 10 points, when you beated them you gain 30+ points. In this season is always 20+/-3 gain or lost regardless of strength of enemy. So with 50-55% WR you are not moving up like before.

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