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Moskva & Angling

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Moskva's Forward and Aft Citadel Athwartships are not flat but angled slightly away from the centre-line. I'm a bit unsure how this affects ship positioning when angling, should I be seeking to avoid presenting one of these faces at 90 deg to the direction of incoming fire and angle a bit more to achieve that, even at the risk of exposing slightly more broadside? Any info muchly appreciated.

Thanks

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Who cares? 50mm bow / stern means you're impenetrable either way. Don't give anyone your side and your citadel is safer than GKs

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2 hours ago, wilkatis_LV said:

Who cares? 50mm bow / stern means you're impenetrable either way. Don't give anyone your side and your citadel is safer than GKs

i did citadel a moskva once with my yamato ! he was bow in but  it was pure RNG never managed to do it again ...

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13 hours ago, Atorpad said:

i did citadel a moskva once with my yamato ! he was bow in but  it was pure RNG never managed to do it again ...

 

The 50mm bow is a pretty recent buff (was it even in the last update or one before that?), so before that every BB could overmatch Moskvas bow.

If it was after the buff:

I got frontal citadeled in my Roon from a Gneisenau (not possble) and in my Missouri from a Montana (also not possible) Sometimes the game seems to screw up.

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8 hours ago, DFens_666 said:

 

The 50mm bow is a pretty recent buff (was it even in the last update or one before that?), so before that every BB could overmatch Moskvas bow.

If it was after the buff:

I got frontal citadeled in my Roon from a Gneisenau (not possble) and in my Missouri from a Montana (also not possible) Sometimes the game seems to screw up.

it was after buff...

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1 minute ago, Atorpad said:

it was after buff...

 

Ye as i said, i wonder about those screwups. Couple of days ago i frontal citadelled a Zao in my Hindenburg too so...

Not sure whats wrong there, but i heared about steering might be screwing with the armor so the game thinks you have no armor or something like that. Not sure about that either, but sounds possible.

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46 minutes ago, Atorpad said:

it was after buff...

I have citadelled her with Montana at about 12km, but it's the same as shooting GKs citadel - pray for RNG, won't happen normally anyway

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I am sorry if I am too late in this discussion but I have had a Moskva for some time now and I absolutely cannot enjoy playing her.

 

All other stuff aside (like people demanding you turn on your  radar even though they are out of range, and then reporting you) I have immense problems with angling.

 

I thought 50mm buff WoW!! great....first game got citadeled through the bow by an Izumo, same game got something like 17k damage by a single Montana shell to the stern!!!

 

Second game, got to tanking against a Musashi and a Grosser Kurfürst, both ships were about 20 degrees of my bow one port one starboard at about 20km, with their first salvos got me down to 15k, that was almost 50k damage through the front.  Needless to say I was confused.

Same thing happened later where ships from Tiers 9 and 10 continued to tear me apart with AP through the front...5k damage per shell was the minimum sustained.. I am being reduced to a useless 10k health ship faster than I can turn my guns...

 

What is it that I am missing?  I've seen the damn youtube videos and I am trying to do the same!!!

 

Also, before, I used to citadel north carolina's and Izumos and Des Moines all the time from 20km away, now I can't citadel anything!  

 

 

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19 hours ago, cimmerian_steel said:

I am sorry if I am too late in this discussion but I have had a Moskva for some time now and I absolutely cannot enjoy playing her.

 

Firstly, it's important to realise that Moskvas "50mm bow and stern" does not encompass the entire bow and stern.

 

moskvabow.thumb.gif.07abb36fb0f8908c247c46e594c7a7aa.gif

 

Here you can see that 25mm armor covers the top half of the bow above the waterline. Moskvas deck is also 25 along the fore and no more than 50mm at any point across the entire deck.

 

For completeness here's the 50mm stern plate;

Spoiler

image.thumb.png.10eda257567da65b86eb5e0cd9a84868.png

 

When bow in to any ship, even the Yamato (which has the highest overmatching potential of all) can neither penetrate the 50mm Fore End Belt due to the angle nor overmatch that armor with sheer calibre due to the thickness. That does apply only to that 50mm section, however. The 25mm armor can be overmatched by any AP shell with a calibre over 357mm (Calculation for this is armor thickness x 14.3 = required calibre to overmatch) but the smallest BB calibre between tiers 8-10 is 380mm, so Moskva is certainly not immune to AP fire from the front. Even if you go bow in so that the Fore End Plating represents an autoricochet purely because of the angle (which is achieved at 30° or 22.5° versus ships with "super heavy AP" such as US Cruisers like Des Moines) a shell of overmatching calibre will penetrate regardless of the angle (assuming it has enough actual penetration to get through the armor as an overmatching shell still has to actually penetrate, just because it can ignore the angling of the armor for auto ricochet doesnt mean it's a free penetration).

 

Essentially, at long range you're at risk of plunging fire coming through the deck and fore end plating to penetrate and damage you (regardless of your angle most BB calibre shells can achieve this) and even at close range only shells directed towards the belt and waterline risk bouncing off the 50mm belt, when bow on the 25mm plating at 20° either side represents only 75mm of effective armor, a trivial amount for any BB to penetrate (GK with her 406mm guns can generate 430mm of penetration even when firing 20km, and penetrates 700+ at 5km). Moskvas 50mm belt plate essentially gives her a chance to prevent overmatches and autorichochet shells that would otherwise penetrate other cruisers, but doesn't provide a means to shrug off all AP shells from the front.

 

Against BBs, going bow in seems inviting, but the plating on Moskva will only do 1 of 2 things; cause an autoricochet or fail entirely, so focus on causing autoriochets if you absolutely must take a hit from BBs. Angle the ship to expose some of your belt to try and tempt your attacker into aiming for your citadel area through your belt. When you can turn your aft turret on your target you're around the 36° angle which means your attacker is firing at a 54° plate, this is below the 60/67.5° autoricochet zone and is dangerous! Your only hope is that they aim for your waterline and go for your citadel, in this scenario any shells fired at the areas outlined in red below will bounce, no portion of the citadel is exposed here except deep below the waterline, although the superstructure, fore end plate and front turret barbettes are still at risk, as well as the risk of penetrating the turrets themselves (causing you no damage but potentially knocking out a gun);

image.thumb.png.5d14f99bfc00405efe29c7418c0a829f.png

This is by no means a guarantee you'll survive an encounter with a BB, but I believe it's your best chance. BB players who understand how this works will not fall for this trick and can still cause moderate damage by targeting your superstructure, but your citadel should be fairly safe.

 

Against cruisers, Moskva will see more success when bow on as she can't be overmatched from the front and her 20° natural angling on the bow presents a signifcant chance of auto ricochets, although many ships firing at a bow on moskva with AP in this scenario will aim up towards the superstructure instead of the hull, risk to the citadel is almost non existant as her deck armor will also ricochet most shells thanks to the thickness and severe angle.

 

It's worth noting as well that HE shells can penetrate armor, ignoring the effective thickness, based on their calibre either at 1/6 or 1/4 of their calibre. With many cruisers and DDs aiming to penetrate the 32mm thick bows of many BBs, Moskvas 25mm bow and 25/50mm deck will rarely face a HE shell from primary armament it can resist.

 

I hope some of this knowledge will help you avoid such scenarios are those you described in future if at all possible, Moskva isn't a ship you really want to be brawling BBs with but her long range makes her quite versatile in choosing a position to attack from (even if her maneuverability hinders that somewhat, she's fast in a straight line) and her radar can provide useful information when a lot of islands or terrain obscure vision and essential intel, most often the best way to avoid damage is not expose yourself to it in the first place and for that intel and foresight is key. I will advise Moskva to avoid open water when engaging enemies and stick to terrain where she can angle as above to attempt to resist AP fire, aware of the risk that plunging fire presents as well as attack aircraft considering Moskvas underwhelming AA suite, threat of torpedo attacks which are so easily commited to stationary, island-hugging Moskvas (luckily Moskva has hydro as well as radar) and the ever present threat of HE.

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Benser thank you so much for all this.

 

I understand all you say and it actually makes sense with the experience I have with the Moskva. Two things don't make sense to me though.

The videos showing Moskvas going head to head with BBs after the 50mm buff and doing like 200k damage and the fact that when playing, other tier 10 players urge the Moskva to not hug the terrain but join the front line and brawl with the BBs ..which every time I yield and do, I die... badly and quickly...

 

Surely these guys urge me because that is what other Moskva captains do, right?  I thought that is the way to play this ship, but when I do....death. 

What you say makes absolute sense, but at the same time it is not what the teammates expect from me... I am utterly confused...

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6 hours ago, cimmerian_steel said:

Benser thank you so much for all this.

 

I understand all you say and it actually makes sense with the experience I have with the Moskva. Two things don't make sense to me though.

The videos showing Moskvas going head to head with BBs after the 50mm buff and doing like 200k damage and the fact that when playing, other tier 10 players urge the Moskva to not hug the terrain but join the front line and brawl with the BBs ..which every time I yield and do, I die... badly and quickly...

 

Surely these guys urge me because that is what other Moskva captains do, right?  I thought that is the way to play this ship, but when I do....death. 

What you say makes absolute sense, but at the same time it is not what the teammates expect from me... I am utterly confused...

Moskva is fast, she has good range, she has a generous amount of hitpoints, I can understand why players could build an argument for her taking the fight to open water, but she can't turn well, she's large and 34knts isn't fast enough for experienced opponents to miss such a large target. Not only that, but considering how you handle a 1v1 scenario is one thing, but when you're taking fire from multiple angles what is the solution then? Because evading or holding fire to try and become undetected is difficult, Moskva doesn't evade easily and her concealment is poor.

 

Physical terrain can provide cover from multiple attackers by just reversing out of sight, the island hugging isn't as good as DM because Moskva can't shoot over islands as easily with her low angles, but even with just her 2 front guns a camping Moskva can reach far and cause a lot of damage. You want to avoid brawls with Moskva, she doesn't even have torpedos for close range self defense. You gain nothing by being closer to your target, their penetration against you is improved (HE penetration doesn't vary over distance, Moskva pens 33mm of armor with her HE at 2km or 20km), you're easier to hit, you're vulnerable to torpedoes, you will be outmaneuvered by some BBs, Moskva isn't made for brawling BBs. She can, but you want to avoid it. Hindenburg is a good brawler and pusher, and Hindenburg is a strong counter to Moskva, with her 1/4 pen HE, 12 guns, torps, high health, well protected citadel.

 

I wont recommend making Moskva an easy target by sticking to open water, getting close to enemies or exposing her sides. She can fair better than other cruisers when she hunkers down and angles against her opponent, but against most BBs you still face an uphill battle.

 

Just as importantly I think is the fact that your teammates dont necessarily know whats best for you to do, or even care whether you do well if you could be an easy target for the enemy while your teammates farm damage. Make the most of your contribution to a battle, don't sacrifice yourself for others in randoms by trying to brawl when you shouldnt. Do your best when you must brawl, cruiser AP will struggle against you bow on, BB AP ca be ricocheted of a large portion of the ship when you angle correctly, but Moskva, like most cruisers, should avoid risking significant damage and instead focus on making the most of the excellent guns.

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My original question actually wasn't about the external bow / stern plating, although that was very helpful, but about about the vertical athwartship bulkheads that form the very open "V" shape of the fore and aft ends of the citadel as shown below...

 

Moskva Citadel Fwd.jpg

 

Moskva Citadel Aft.jpg

 

... so if there was any specific advice on how to make the best use of these features (or at least avoid mis-using them) that would also be very much appreciated.

Thanks

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Due to the slight V-Shaped angling of the athwartship plating, this actually makes effective use of this armor very challenging at best, if not ultimately futile.

 

TLDR; this plating provides some additional protection to some components of your ship (most vitally the citadel, of course, but also the turret barbettes) but is not part of your toolkit in terms of armor you can utilise against attackers, at least not without exposing yourself in a way that makes the effort wasted.

 

I've explained some of the benefits and challenges of going bow-on vs 30° angling previously.

 

Bow-on, the 10° angling of the plating increases its effective thickness to only ~52-175mm at best. A shot directly through the fore end plate into the citadel athwartship therefore needs to penetrate about 250mm of armor (75mm effective on the fore end plate, 175mm effective on the athwartship plate) to reach the citadel frontally, although the angle to achieve this is quite challenging the penetration required is trivial for the BB calibre shells that can overmatch through the bow to threaten your citadel. Whether this results in a citadel pen will rely on the attackers shell velocity, fuse time and fuse threshold. For example, Montana AP shells arm after a threshold of 68mm, meaning the fore end plate will arm the shell, if the fuse then detonates the shell 0.033s later and if the shell is travelling at a velocity of 1,500m/s then in 0.033s it will travel a further 50m before detonating which should allow the shell time to meet and penetrate the citadel athwartship plate and penetrate that, detonating within the citadel.

 

30° angling does nothing to improve the situation. Angling to 30° allows you to simultaneously angle the far side of the athwartship to only ~40° (at best, any further attempt to angle this surface away from your target brings your broadside out of auto-ricochet angling), insufficient to provide any protection from large calibre shells (even after they would have also had to pass through the fore end plate) and not producing autoricochets. The near side of the athwarship is actually more exposed when angling, producing a flatter surface that is easier to penetrate. On the plus side, this is only above the belt, the belt if you are angled at 30° will autoricochet shells that might otherwise hit the citadel (and the citadel athwartship) and shells that penetrate the casemate belt or athwartship at close range will likely bounce off the 90mm ceiling of the citadel unless you're unlucky enough for a plunging shell to penetrate through the belt downwards.

 

Against cruiser calibre AP shells, bow on AP shells are unlikely to challenge the citadel athwartship plate (all calibres will autobounce off moskvas severely pointed front unless they miraculously hit the nose head on) and again, at angles where a cruiser might reasonably use AP against a Moskva the athwartship area is unlikely to be hit. DD calibre AP shells will produce no worthwhile results against Moskva unless fully broadside at close range or targetting the superstructure, where the athwartship plating plays no role, but DD AP will be the least of your concerns if a DD is within 5km of you.

 

The casemate athwartship armor is supplementary at best, the armor protecting it is no better and the armor it protects is higher, but you'll rarely angle in such a way that it is either thick enough to repel shells or would cause an automatic ricochet. You can only hope that the thickness it adds is enough to prevent a shell from penetrating a turret barbette should it reach there, if you're lucky it wont be thick enough to stop the shell (if the AP shell wasnt armed when it hit the casemate athwartship it certainly will be after penetrating it) and the shell will overpen out the other side of the casemate somewhere.

 

The citadel athwartship is the citadels thickest protective plate from frontal attacks, but its best protection is being deeply submerged and frontally protected by your bows 50mm belt, which should shrug off all AP shells when angled correctly (again, you're aiming to angle that outer belt armor, not your athwartship plate) leaving it only vulnerable to attacks that penetrate through the fore end or plunging over the deck. You of course can do nothing to angle against plunging fire, you can only optimise your effective armor on the horizontal axis and any shells that penetrate the fore end armor and reach the citadel are extremely lucky shells and could potentially be defeated by the combined vertical angle required to hit the citadel from above the belt and the citadels thickness.

 

All of the above concerns AP shells. The athwartship plate compartmentalises the bow from the midsection but since HE shells do not penetrate beyond the first surface they contact this internal plate serves no protective purpose since it will never be the first surface struck. Regardless, only BB calibre HE will have the power to penetrate the casemate, with the exception of German CA HE and the mythical IFHE Henri IV.

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6 hours ago, Benser said:

All of the above concerns AP shells. The athwartship plate compartmentalises the bow from the midsection but since HE shells do not penetrate beyond the first surface they contact this internal plate serves no protective purpose since it will never be the first surface struck. Regardless, only BB calibre HE will have the power to penetrate the casemate, with the exception of the mythical IFHE Henri IV.

Technically German CA (Yorck, Hipper, Roon, Hindenburger) can penetrate 50mm plating with HE, and these are way more popular than baguette class cruiser.

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23 minutes ago, Panocek said:

Technically German CA (Yorck, Hipper, Roon, Hindenburger) can penetrate 50mm plating with HE, and these are way more popular than baguette class cruiser.

This is true, I forgot about German CAs having the 1/4 pen rule, I have amended that sentence. However, HE shells still will not reach the plate in question.

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