AP close range on broadside targets - aim under waterline - faulty mechanic

[loppantorkel]

I don't see this mechanic working well at all. If you're close, 4-6km, to a light cruiser (read 'thin') and he's completely broadside and you've got a bb or a heavy cruiser, you're better off loading HE if you want to do damage in shortest amount of time (and hope you're not up against an Atlanta or similar). You may get an occasional citadel hit, but the overwhelming majority of hits will be overpens. Aiming below the waterline is not effective. Dispersion make you get hits that still overpen or no hits at all, with the very occasional citadel hit.

 

My point is that it's counterintuitive - sitting broadside shouldn't be a viable tactic. Either it's a full on potato or someone using this faulty mechanic against you. Your only hope is that you get a bit of angle on the opponent.

The reason this isn't complained about more is probably because it's mostly effective in mid tiers and doesn't happen in competitive modes. Still very annoying and I think it should be looked at.

 

Maybe increase the chance of underwater citadels? Should make it easier to score citadel hits on bbs too which can't be a bad thing.

[Blixies]

9 minutes ago, loppantorkel said:

I don't see this mechanic working well at all. If you're close, 4-6km, to a light cruiser (read 'thin') and he's completely broadside and you've got a bb or a heavy cruiser, you're better off loading HE if you want to do damage in shortest amount of time (and hope you're not up against an Atlanta or similar). You may get an occasional citadel hit, but the overwhelming majority of hits will be overpens. Aiming below the waterline is not effective. Dispersion make you get hits that still overpen or no hits at all, with the very occasional citadel hit.

 

My point is that it's counterintuitive - sitting broadside shouldn't be a viable tactic. Either it's a full on potato or someone using this faulty mechanic against you. Your only hope is that you get a bit of angle on the opponent.

The reason this isn't complained about more is probably because it's mostly effective in mid tiers and doesn't happen in competitive modes. Still very annoying and I think it should be looked at.

 

Maybe increase the chance of underwater citadels? Should make it easier to score citadel hits on bbs too which can't be a bad thing.

Yeh, some salvos from very close range do (almost) nothing no matter how you aim.

On the other hand I'm not so sure if the BBs need more instagib opportunities - do you really believe that they do?

[Azalgor]

Shot Atago with Tirpitz  AP fully broadside in less than 10km ( he was full health), did 3 salvos with some 10 hits, what i did was 2k dmg, aimed at the center just above the waterline. Overpenetrations at its best.

[ColonelPete]

It is easier to score citadels, but you do not have a 100% guarantee.

[El2aZeR]

Recently broadside tanked an Izumo and a Yamato in my Seattle at ~4km. Both only managed to chew halfway through my HP until they died.

 

On the other hand I managed to nuke a DM at 6km simply by aiming slightly below the waterline in my NC.

[Prospect_b]

35 minutes ago, Azalgor said:

Shot Atago with Tirpitz  AP fully broadside in less than 10km ( he was full health), did 3 salvos with some 10 hits, what i did was 2k dmg, aimed at the center just above the waterline. Overpenetrations at its best.

Has nothing to do with the topic though, but just with bad aim. A full broadside Atago, which can't be accused of having difficult to reach citadel, at that range should at least lose 3/4 of its health.

 

48 minutes ago, loppantorkel said:

Maybe increase the chance of underwater citadels?

Nop. In the age of BBKevin-can't-have-a-citadel-anymore, why wouldn't have (light) cruisers have a chance of surviving as well, with way worse odds in comparison.

 

49 minutes ago, loppantorkel said:

Should make it easier to score citadel hits on bbs too which can't be a bad thing.

I don't think that will be the case then. Aiming underwater for cruisers makes your shells lose pen, so not to overpen. Don't think you'll increase chance to cit BBs.

[Blixies]

1 minute ago, Saiyko said:

Has nothing to do with the topic though, but just with bad aim. A full broadside Atago, which can't be accused of having difficult to reach citadel, at that range should at least lose 3/4 of its health.

Yeah... no. 8 German BB guns can troll you on sub 10 km ranges, if that hasn't happened to you means you don't have enough battles in them.

[Prospect_b]

2 minutes ago, Blixies said:

Yeah... no. 8 German BB guns can troll you on sub 10 km ranges, if that hasn't happened to you means you don't have enough battles in them.

Meh. I think Bismarck was my first tier 8 ever, but that's a long long time ago. And yea, the troll dispersion is the prize you pay for troll armour. That's why I never continued the line (besides Freddy being a PoS), I don't think those ships are worth it in the current meta.

[ForlornSailor]

37 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

Recently broadside tanked an Izumo and a Yamato in my Seattle at ~4km. Both only managed to chew halfway through my HP until they died.

 

New line of ships: Nothing special. Working as intended. What was the first thing Yamato and Izumo did back in port? Right. Stock up on Free XP and unlock Seattle & Worcester right away. Best business modell right there.

[ClappingLollies]

4 minutes ago, Saiyko said:

Meh. I think Bismarck was my first tier 8 ever, but that's a long long time ago. And yea, the troll dispersion is the prize you pay for troll armour. That's why I never continued the line (besides Freddy being a PoS), I don't think those ships are worth it in the current meta.

Playing the Bismarck wrong mate. Sniping at 20km range is best range. Don't even have to aim. Just get lucky!

 

Also, did i just get Rick Rolled by reading that Morse code? 

[DFens_666]

US CLs are definetely too hard to citadel.  Im with @loppantorkel on this one. I dont think broadsiding should be a viable option to receive less damage. But looking at French Cruisers, they already implemented that way back.

With CAs however, i disagree. I wouldnt load HE. Yes, they dont receive too many citadels in one salvo either, but with the faster reload compared to BBs they tend to die anyway, alltho not fast enough imo.

 

[Prospect_b]

7 minutes ago, MortenTardo said:

Playing the Bismarck wrong mate. Sniping at 20km range is best range. Don't even have to aim. Just get lucky!

Well, that's what I meant when I referred to current meta. It is more than unfortunate, but especially high tier games and especially in some retarded open maps which we all love, a considerable amount of the game is shooting at long distances. I have very rarely seen german BBs do well on let's say Okinawa (although, if you go A, on condition that you really push, it might work? dno). In general I dread seeing kurfursts on my team and other tier tens on the red one ( @El2aZeR knows my pain), because, Imho, seldom do decent players take those ships out.

 

7 minutes ago, MortenTardo said:

Also, did i just get Rick Rolled by reading that Morse code? 

As with my ships, I aim to please

[Azalgor]

35 minutes ago, Saiyko said:

Has nothing to do with the topic though, but just with bad aim.

Ha-Ha...Ha... Nothing to do with 10 hits doing 2k dmg to a flat broadside. Nathing at all, just keep soaking it...

[DJ_Die]

32 minutes ago, ForlornSailor said:

 

New line of ships: Nothing special. Working as intended. What was the first thing Yamato and Izumo did back in port? Right. Stock up on Free XP and unlock Seattle & Worcester right away. Best business modell right there.

Well, if they do that, it will be their mistake as the Seattle i oneshot yesterday in my Richelieu will attest... Those CLs are squishy as hell... The problem are smart players who wont let you punish them... 

[Prospect_b]

19 minutes ago, Azalgor said:

Ha-Ha...Ha... Nothing to do with 10 hits doing 2k dmg to a flat broadside. Nathing at all, just keep soaking it...

While I'm not stating as a definitive fact that you misaimed (i.e. too high), have you even considered that it's possible? You can share the replay, so we can judge for ourselves...

[ColonelPete]

27 minutes ago, Azalgor said:

Ha-Ha...Ha... Nothing to do with 10 hits doing 2k dmg to a flat broadside. Nathing at all, just keep soaking it...

Some people just ignore dispersion. RNG can troll you and your shots land too high. Even worse, you aim at the waterline and your whole salvo lands below the waterline. No damage!

[loppantorkel]

21 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

Some people just ignore dispersion. RNG can troll you and your shots land too high. Even worse, you aim at the waterline and your whole salvo lands below the waterline. No damage!

Problem is that you need to aim below the waterline if you're too close, otherwise you overpen the citadel, but if you aim below, there's a significant chance you still do less damage because of misses and overpens. Why wouldn't mid tier be perfect for cruisers to learn about broadsiding?

[ColonelPete]

Because if you do it on purpose, I can promise you, RNG is trolling you and you get dev-striked out of the match.

[__Helmut_Kohl__]

I don't understand why overpens to the citadel don't do more damage.

 

Penetration: 1/3 damage

Citadel: 3/3 damage

 

Overpenetration: 1/10 damage

Citadel: 1/10 damage (???) 

 

Shouldn't overpens to the citadel do more damage, 3/10 for example ?

 

 

Source for this is the Wiki btw:

"Penetrations deal x0.33 of the shell's listed damage. (...) Over-penetrations deal x0.10 of the shell's listed damage. (...) Citadel hits will always deal x1.0 of the shell's listed damage (though citadel over-penetration is still possible, and will only deal x0.10 damage)."

http://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Gunnery_%26_Armor_Penetration#Armor-Piercing

 

[loppantorkel]

25 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

Because if you do it on purpose, I can promise you, RNG is trolling you and you get dev-striked out of the match.

You've got better chance if you stay completely broadside than having an angle, at close range in lightly armoured/thin cruisers. I've brought this up before and while it's a mechanic in the game, it's not intuitive for the common player. It's like a wide eyed deer in the middle of the road that annihilates the incoming truck, you don't want to teach the playerbase these things for the higher tiers.

[Guillotine]

Citadel overpen should be 1/2 of the max dmg. 

 

But currently best potato tactic is to broadside and let the WG Rng slot machine punish the better player. 

[GarrusBrutus]

11 minutes ago, Guillotine said:

Citadel overpen should be 1/2 of the max dmg. 

Citadel overpen, what is that? 

[__Helmut_Kohl__]

17 minutes ago, GarrusBrutus said:

Citadel overpen, what is that? 

 

1 hour ago, _Helmut_Kohl_ said:

"Penetrations deal x0.33 of the shell's listed damage. (...) Over-penetrations deal x0.10 of the shell's listed damage. (...) Citadel hits will always deal x1.0 of the shell's listed damage (though citadel over-penetration is still possible, and will only deal x0.10 damage)."

http://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Gunnery_%26_Armor_Penetration#Armor-Piercing

 

 

[ironhammer500]

Why should a CA player get away with being stupid and broadside a BB at sub 10km ranges...its their fault being that close side on same as a BB player gets punished for exposing their side to another BB.

[philjd]

It took my secondaries to take out a Cleveland  at roughly 8km in my Bismarck last night (full secondary spec), no citadels at all just a lot of overpens.

(But then german dispersion + I am rubbish in Bismarck probably contributed more to that poor showing)