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Mangrey

So how do WG balance ships ?

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Hey 

I have bin playing since CBT, and there have bin alot of changes doing that time.

So not im arsking my self how do you balance a new ship and how do you(WG) keep the old onces in the "game" 

Im arsking curs i have a hard time to see the balance (if any) in you +-2 mm between the 4 tirs of ships

 

mang

 

Sorry for my bad english

 

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Make new ship line better than the previous ones

Nothing more to it, after a year or so, noone cares if the old lines are in a bad spot, just play the new ones!

Flavour of the month is US CLs currently.

 

There are MANY ships (imo) which are desperately in need of a rework, but instead of doing that, rather make completely new lines which are better anyway, and let ppl play them.

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1 minute ago, DFens_666 said:

Make new ship line better than the previous ones

I seem to have missed that with quite a few lines....

 

Ships are balanced on statistical performance. Old lines get changes, if needed (take a look at the recent changes last patch).

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They do not balance them. 

Some ships are OP, some are horrible. 

Every new ship line is made OP (with rare exceptions) so that people get motivated again to play. 

But what is most horrible is not even ship balance/disbalance it is teams you get playing random battles. That is worst thing in game. 

These losing streaks, endless horrible losing streaks, where people do most insane, stupid, absurd, retarded, outrageous things that result in loss again, again, again, again and again. 

 

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6 hours ago, DFens_666 said:

Make new ship line better than the previous ones

 Thats what the community expects them to do, but thats hardly the case.

 But clearly they have no idea on the term balance at all, legendary upgrade 'gimmick' is the best example, since some get to sacrifice nothing to become better some must sacrifice all to become worse (Whorechaser vs Kebab are best examples).

 So they just make something, then use nerf hammers on anything already relieced to make the new line somewhat relatively interesting to play in camparison.

 

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Every time I see a Belfast or a Saipan massacrate tier 5s I wonder who was the idiot that decided that those ships were OK for release at their tier.

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I assume balance by testing. The game is okay in terms of balance. Some ships are OP, some are a bit UP, but that's to be expected in a game. A slight powercreep is also to be expected and probably a good strategy for any MP game, especially if F2P.

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A friend of mine who I was playing with last night said some very wise words, he said "gamers care too much about balance". And he's right.

 

So many people have perceived problems with how ships perform. Most of the time they have completely opposite opinions to others yet they all agree there is some mythical balance problem and that each of them knows better, how to solve this "problem", than the company who made the game.

 

Personally, I take the view that true balance is neither achievable nor really desirable. Not achievable because the game is far too complex to make every ship balanced in every possible combination of interactions. And not desirable because it ultimately stifles variety and the potential for unique and interesting ships.

 

And for what? Ultimately even the most widely considered OP ships depend on the person in front of the screen, and have weaknesses and counters. Some people really enjoy some quirky ships whether they are strong or weak. There are a lot of fun things you would lose in your quest for a balance "holy grail", if people can even agree what that is.

 

Furthermore, cyclic balance ("flavour of the month" due to buffs, nerfs, missions and new releases) is a standard strategy in online games with big unit/character variety. It's there to shake things up and keep things fresh, so that what was OP before might not be OP now and the game doesn't become stale. It's the only way to even try to balance things, by giving each time in the spotlight.

 

The game is fine precisely because it has so much variety, you never know quite what you'll be up against or how it's going to play out. You can do well and enjoy any ship if it suits your style. I say just enjoy your ships and stop worrying about balance. If you don't enjoy the game it's not the game's fault, it's a question of attitude.

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7 minutes ago, VC381 said:

A friend of mine who I was playing with last night said some very wise words, he said "gamers care too much about balance". And he's right.

 

So many people have perceived problems with how ships perform. Most of the time they have completely opposite opinions to others yet they all agree there is some mythical balance problem and that each of them knows better, how to solve this "problem", than the company who made the game.

 

Personally, I take the view that true balance is neither achievable nor really desirable. Not achievable because the game is far too complex to make every ship balanced in every possible combination of interactions. And not desirable because it ultimately stifles variety and the potential for unique and interesting ships.

 

And for what? Ultimately even the most widely considered OP ships depend on the person in front of the screen, and have weaknesses and counters. Some people really enjoy some quirky ships whether they are strong or weak. There are a lot of fun things you would lose in your quest for a balance "holy grail", if people can even agree what that is.

 

Furthermore, cyclic balance ("flavour of the month" due to buffs, nerfs, missions and new releases) is a standard strategy in online games with big unit/character variety. It's there to shake things up and keep things fresh, so that what was OP before might not be OP now and the game doesn't become stale. It's the only way to even try to balance things, by giving each time in the spotlight.

 

The game is fine precisely because it has so much variety, you never know quite what you'll be up against or how it's going to play out. You can do well and enjoy any ship if it suits your style. I say just enjoy your ships and stop worrying about balance. If you don't enjoy the game it's not the game's fault, it's a question of attitude.

Well said. Variation makes for a better game. Same reason I don't want WG to make the teams too similar and which is why I don't like to see radar ships being distributed between the teams in equal numbers.

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They will change things if money is at stake.

 

The same principles Games Workshop uses and always have.  Whatever isnt selling or people already had too many of, they change the rules/Ships to MAKE people wanna grind other lines and in the process, make money.  Stagnating is not good for these kinda games and proper balance doesn't make money chaps.

 

Everyone had conscripts in a Astra militarum and you could field alots and alots of them of them (£££,£££).  Everyone had Wyvans, Manicores and so forth (££££).  So after this time had passed, people stopped buying other models because the ones they had were competitive (if not boring a bit).  This is not good business for GW so they had to mix things up.

 

Then they changed it, and the rules.  They made conscrips crap and Wyans too.  So what better way to get people to buy new models, better models, than to unbalance things and stat change.  Tanks and Basilisk are the new flavour and guess what?  People are buying the new modles hand over fist and mothballing all those 100 figures that are no longer required. 

 

it's great business sense as people what to stay competitive, even at a friendly level.

 

WG do the same and always have done.

 

1)  Too many people has the Hak tier 10 CV and no one gave the Midway a seconded glance.  Then they changed the ship and low and behold, everyone stated to grind the US CV's again (££££).

2)  That Tier 9 IJN BB awful ship has just become workable and then add the new module for the Yam to make it even more accurate. Good reason to grind the line now as every BB player in Clans had the Montana. 

3)  Everyone had a Hindy at tier 10 as it's a easy going ship.  Lets nerf it and buff the Zao.  Another reason to get people to grind the line.

4)  No one grinding the Moskva?  Lets give it new 50 plating (front and back).

 

I can foresee the French Cruisers will be the next in line.  Too little people are grinding it at the moment, but they are still raking in the rewards from the US CL at the moment.  Wait until that dies down and mark my words, French ones will be changed next.

 

What i'm trying to get out of all this is WG could completely balance all ships if they truly wanted to...They just don't want to because of ££££.

 

It's a company at the end of the day, so I don't blame them to be brutally honest.  If you understand that it's a business, then things like MM, Balance and contents becomes more transparent and palatable, if not frustrating. 

 

I do wonder if "balance" would make the game boring tho.

 

IMHO :cap_tea:

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13 minutes ago, VC381 said:

A friend of mine who I was playing with last night said some very wise words, he said "gamers care too much about balance". And he's right.

 

So many people have perceived problems with how ships perform. Most of the time they have completely opposite opinions to others yet they all agree there is some mythical balance problem and that each of them knows better, how to solve this "problem", than the company who made the game.

 

Personally, I take the view that true balance is neither achievable nor really desirable. Not achievable because the game is far too complex to make every ship balanced in every possible combination of interactions. And not desirable because it ultimately stifles variety and the potential for unique and interesting ships.

 

And for what? Ultimately even the most widely considered OP ships depend on the person in front of the screen, and have weaknesses and counters. Some people really enjoy some quirky ships whether they are strong or weak. There are a lot of fun things you would lose in your quest for a balance "holy grail", if people can even agree what that is.

 

Furthermore, cyclic balance ("flavour of the month" due to buffs, nerfs, missions and new releases) is a standard strategy in online games with big unit/character variety. It's there to shake things up and keep things fresh, so that what was OP before might not be OP now and the game doesn't become stale. It's the only way to even try to balance things, by giving each time in the spotlight.

 

The game is fine precisely because it has so much variety, you never know quite what you'll be up against or how it's going to play out. You can do well and enjoy any ship if it suits your style. I say just enjoy your ships and stop worrying about balance. If you don't enjoy the game it's not the game's fault, it's a question of attitude.

fair points. It's just... wouldn't you agree that some thing (ships in this case) are too far out of whack with the general baseline to be healthy for the game? Variety is all good and well, and I'm all for it (hell, I love my Atlanta to bits, which is probably the textbook example for "quirky, not all that powerful but unique" WoWS has to offer), but I'd say you can very much go too far in either direction and hurt rather than help the general enjoyability of a game like this...

Now, opinions on which exactly those are will probably differ, but commonly cited examples will include powerhouses like the Kamikazeclones, Nikolai, Belfast etc

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The need to buff donkey reload asap imo, its all nice and fun but 12x180 mm guns with 12+ reload and that shitty handling at t9/10 really aint funny anymore, also Atlanta could do with a heal, since Many mid tier prem cruisers seem to get one nowdays

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A heal, on Atlanta ? Of all ships ?

Are you for real ?

 

Atlanta really doesn't need a buff.

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13 minutes ago, Yedwy said:

The need to buff donkey reload asap imo, its all nice and fun but 12x180 mm guns with 12+ reload and that shitty handling at t9/10 really aint funny anymore, also Atlanta could do with a heal, since Many mid tier prem cruisers seem to get one nowdays

Many?

I know of three of which two are the same ship.

And no Atlanta does not need heal.

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8 minutes ago, ShinGetsu said:

Atlanta really doesn't need a buff.

 

Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Just imagine.

Atlanta with heal.

 

Atlanta one of the worst performing T7 cruisers in stats. WG pls buff with heal.

Spoiler

:Smile_trollface::Smile_trollface::Smile_trollface::Smile_trollface::Smile_trollface::Smile_trollface::Smile_trollface::Smile_trollface::Smile_trollface::Smile_trollface::Smile_trollface:

 

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Like this:-

Image result for op balancing meme

(Not my picture!)

 

 

More seriously, strengths v's weaknesses v's saleability v's player numbers.

So 4 way balancing act.

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35 minutes ago, Yedwy said:

The need to buff donkey reload asap imo, its all nice and fun but 12x180 mm guns with 12+ reload and that shitty handling at t9/10 really aint funny anymore, also Atlanta could do with a heal, since Many mid tier prem cruisers seem to get one nowdays

 

I heard so my bad things about the Donkey (just finished last fri) when grinding to the Moskva. About the turn rate, the amount of damage she eats and so on..

 

But I really enjoyed her, even if she was kinda a one trick pony.....Support with Radar, Spam HE from a distance and close at the end.

 

I could not honestly say that she requires a buff to anything.  She is my top Tier 9 cruiser damage dealer at the moment and didn't think that would be the case when i seen her stats.

 

She peck things to death with those 180 MM with IHFE.  Don't seem to do mega amounts of damage with full salvos (less so with AP) but constant stream of HE death from a distance.  Your defence is your range and found the WASD fine with rudder shifts upgrades.  She has Defensive AA for CV's so there not much of problem (those that are still left) AND you have radar.

 

Yes when she gets hit she gets hit, but it's the same for most tier 8-9 Cruisers. She's basically a Chappy and Shores at tier 9 in my head. 

 

Support DDs at start, radar up then turn and kite.  Standard stuff it in until late games when you can really get involved with those torps. 

 

Nope, would change anything on it IMHO.

 

As for the Atlanta? it's fine as it is IMHO and doesn't need a heal. It's not suppose to be a ship that takes hits (both RL and in the game)

 

I'm not the greatest Atlanta captain but even I don't think it needs a heal.  Your lucky to hit many of them as they spam behind island and assist CV's most of the time.  It's a ship that you SHOULD get punished if you play it badly.  It's a fiddly ship.  Great in the hands of a good Captain, comply dead and worthless in the wrong hands.

 

 

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14 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

Many?

I know of three of which two are the same ship.

And no Atlanta does not need heal.

Yes and those 3 happen to be the 3 that were last released in those tiers?

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12 hours ago, Mangrey said:

So how do WG "balance" ships?

 

PenAndPaper.png

 

[Edit:] No, I don't mean this as a joke this time. I really believe that this is the way they do it!

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50 minutes ago, Redcap375 said:

They will change things if money is at stake.

 

The same principles Games Workshop uses and always have.  Whatever isnt selling or people already had too many of, they change the rules/Ships to MAKE people wanna grind other lines and in the process, make money.  Stagnating is not good for these kinda games and proper balance doesn't make money chaps.

 

League of Legends does this although I'm not sure to what extent they directly make money from character sales, the business model is a bit different and more focused on selling cosmetic stuff.

 

But they still balance like this, they buff/nerf or re-work whole classes, or items and map stuff to cycle the class dominance. One season the game is slow and tactical because tanks are king and nobody can kill them, next season the game is really fast because the DPS classes got a new tool that makes tanks obsolete and so on. It's really quite good design. There are still OP characters but they aren't OP for long enough to ruin the game.

 

44 minutes ago, Tyrendian89 said:

fair points. It's just... wouldn't you agree that some thing (ships in this case) are too far out of whack with the general baseline to be healthy for the game? Variety is all good and well, and I'm all for it (hell, I love my Atlanta to bits, which is probably the textbook example for "quirky, not all that powerful but unique" WoWS has to offer), but I'd say you can very much go too far in either direction and hurt rather than help the general enjoyability of a game like this...

Now, opinions on which exactly those are will probably differ, but commonly cited examples will include powerhouses like the Kamikazeclones, Nikolai, Belfast etc

 

Not sure how I feel about this. Kamiclones are a real pain, I dread seeing them but I know I can handle them as long as I'm in the right ship myself. Nik, I don't play low tiers but honestly that's where balance matters least, you can seal club in almost anything and nobody knows what they're doing enough to notice if something is really OP. Belfast... meh, I personally don't find it particularly strong or fun to play (compare my Fiji) and I can deal with it but it's annoying.

 

Basically my problem with certain ships is more that other players freak out "OMG OP premium" and play like idiots around them, so of course it confirms their bias. But people playing badly or just lacking teamwork to deal with specific threats isn't a ship's fault.

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5 hours ago, Azalgor said:

 Thats what the community expects them to do, but thats hardly the case.

 

Maybe i should have said more noob friendly and everyone would agree :Smile_teethhappy: For me it comes down to the same thing. When you dont have to learn to get better, instead get WORSE, then the ships are not balanced compared to others.

 

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