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A (serious) case for HNLMS Witte de With as T6 Dutch premium by Lert on NA

HNLMS Witte de With as T6 Dutch premium DD?  

42 members have voted

  1. 1. HNLMS Witte de With as T6 Dutch premium DD?

    • Yes, I support this idea and would actually seriously buy her, for sure
      26
    • Yes, I support this idea but would not spend my money on her
      8
    • No, we don't need a Dutch ship in this game, period
      3
    • Meh, I don't really care either way
      5

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When I was searching for some warships-related information, I found a topic on the NA server by user Lert. I was immediately enthousiast about that idea. Since that link likely won't work unless you have an NA account as well (like I do), Lert gave me permission to place his message here for us on the EU server. All credits go to him, and I copied this straight from his message on NA (except for a typo in the title that I corrected):

 

While I've talked about the Admiralen class before, that was always in general terms. I believe that to enhance the chance of someone at WG taking notice of a premium ship request, I should make it as specific as possible and narrow it down to a specific ship, give a synopsis about its service history, include as much information as possible and even give my view on how to implement her, with what features, at what tier and describe what play style she would offer.

No small task.

So without further ado, let's get down to the nitty gritty of it, and present HNLMS Witte de With:

5eU2iZL.png

HNLMS Witte de With as commissioned.

Witte de With was an Admiralen class destroyer which was laid down on 28 May 1927 at the shipyard of Fijenoord in Rotterdam and launched on 11 September 1928. The ship was commissioned on 20 February 1930. She is named after Witte Corneliszoon de With, a famous Dutch naval officer of the 17th century.

GtODXsx.jpg

Witte Corneliszoon de With, by Abraham van Westerveld

She was typical Admiralen class of the second group, measuring just under 100m long and displacing 1666 metric tons at full load. She had three Yarrow type boilers and two Parson geared turbines driving two shafts. Her drive train produced 31000 HP which pushed her along at a modest 36 knots. There is little written down about Witte de With's service career, but what's there paints a picture as tragic as that of her seven sister ships of the Admiralenclass.

There is especially little written down in public, easy-to-find internet archives about her first ten years of service, before WWII broke out. It's written that she visited Saigon along with her sistership van Galen and the Java class cruiser Sumatra, in 1935. It's said that Witte de With was present at the fleet days in Sumatra in 1936, along with sisterships van Galen and Piet Hein, and the Java class cruisers Java and Sumatra. Later that year both Java class cruisers and the Admiralen class destoyers Witte de With, Evertsen and Piet Hein made a fleet visit to Singapore, stopping along the way in the South China Sea for an exercise.

So for the first ten years of her service Witte de With performed PR duties and exercises, projecting force and showing the Dutch navy's investment in various Pacific sea locations. But then war broke out.

Some time during 1940 or 1941, Witte de With along with her sister van Ghent were equipped with ASDIC systems. But it was during the ill-fated battle of Java Sea that Witte de With took her modest place in history. It was during this engagement that HMS Exeter was crippled by Japanese fire, when a shell from Haguro exploded in her boiler room, knocking six of her boilers off-line. Witte de With was ordered to escort the stricken Exeter back to safety in Surabaya port.  Several days later, while at sea, Witte de With's aging and outdated AA suite became her doom when she was attacked and bombed by Japanese aircraft, on may 1st, 1942. The most significant hit was a bomb to the forecastle, which crippled the ship. Afloat but crippled, and unable to affect open water repairs, the captain ordered her scuttled the next day.

TCFyOKr.jpg

Close-up of the bridge and mid-section, drawing quite a crowd.

So what would she look like in game?

For the purposes of this thread, I'm going hog-wild with stats and consumables, though all within historical reason and precedence. I will explain why further down in this post.

Tonnage:

At 1666 metric tons full load, we get 10900 hitpoints.

This puts her at around tier 4 or 5. However, I want to place her at tier 6, which means she'll have the lowest hitpoints in tier, even behind lightweights like Hatsuharu which boasts 11700 hitpoints fully upgraded.

Armor:

The 'armor' on this destroyer served purely to keep the crew inside while under maneuvers. Moving on ...

Main armament:

4x single Siderius No. 4 120mm guns.

These were license built copies of a Bofors design and fired a 24 kg HE shell at 900 mps. This is an excellent muzzle velocity and would give it very good ballistics over range and short time-to-target, for a 120mm gun. I believe these guns to be near as indistinguishable from the guns on the in-game Błyskawica, as they are both similar vintage Bofors designed 120mm guns with a 50 caliber barrel length, 900 mps muzzle velocity and a ~10 RPM ROF. Taking Błyskawica's numbers, we get to a HE shell with 1700 dmg and an 8.5% fire chance, and an AP shell with 2200 damage. If they really are as similar to Błyskawica's guns as I imagine them to be, they would likely inherit the Polish ship's sluggish 18s turn rate.

Although she would outgun Japanese destroyers at tier, do not mistake Witte de With for a gunboat destroyer. With only four barrels and a 6 second reload, her gun battery is a back-up weapon system at best, suitable for harassing battleships at long range or finishing off wounded destroyers, at most. Their muzzle velocity would give them the ballistics to accurately place warheads on foreheads at range, but she'll never have sufficient shells in the air to seriously worry anyone who isn't a Japanese destroyer of equal tier or lower.

Secondary / Auxilliary armament:

1x Siderius No. 7 75mm
4x 40mm Pom Pom
4x .50 Browning M2

When commissioned this was sufficient. However, at the mid stages of WWII, it no longer was. It's even questionable whether WG would make the 75mm a secondary or not, but even if they did, it wouldn't really be any DPS worth mentioning from a single gun with 8 RPM and a 6.5kg shell.

The pom-poms would give about 22 dps at 2 km and the .50s about 15 dps at 1.2km. Celebratory fireworks to hail the arrival of angry airplanes.

Torpedo armament:

2x triple 533mm tube setup.

With six centerline tubes divided in two launchers of three barrels apiece, Witte de With is not a very powerful torpedo boat. To give her some teeth I say she would carry Błyskawica's British Mk 10*, which gives us a torpedo with 8km range, 57 knots speed and 14400 damage. This is a very modest torpedo for a very modest broadside alpha strike. Having the same number of tubes it's very likely these will reload in about the same 70s as on Błyskawica's torpedo setup. Although her torpedo battery is relatively more potent than her gun battery suite, I'd hesitate to call Witte de With a torpedo boat.

Speed:

As mentioned, 36 knots. This is on the low end for tier 6, beating only some of the Japanese destroyers like Fubuki and Shinonome.

Concealment:

This is, for tier 6, a tiny ship. She is roughly the same dimensions and displacement as a Minekaze class destroyer, and would likely carry very similar dispersion. Minekaze boasts a 6.2km surface detection range and 3.1km by-air detection range. With Witte de With being suggested a premium and thus coming with a premium camouflage standard, her concealment would likely be in the 6.0km range by surface, before captain skills are applied.

"So, wait, no hitpoints, weak gun battery, very mediocre torpedo battery, why is this thing tier 6? Sounds like the perfect tier 5, to me!"

Patience, patience. Yes, the ship based purely on its own merits is a shoe-in for tier 5. That's why in my tech tree proposal, that's where I would put her. However, remember where I mentioned that Witte de With and van Ghentreceived ASDIC some time during the early years of the war? This gives us historical precedence for a Hydroacoustic Search consumable. Plus, there's another neat trick the Admiralen could do ....

hOp7sk5.jpg

That's right. A destroyer with a spotter plane, carried aft on a structure above the rearward torpedo mount.

Consumables:

We'll start by giving her the standard destroyer suite of consumables, being DCP, Smoke and Speed Boost, all standard versions. Since we're talking about Witte de With, we'll also give her a Spotter Plane with a single charge base, and Hydroacoustic Search with one or two charges base. This would give Witte de With the flexibility and vision control to challenge cap circles and provide forward scouting in a way no other destroyer in this game can.

yB20csF.jpg

"Wait, back up a bit. Admiralen had a catapult?"

Well, no. No catapult. The sea plane was carried on a structure above the rearward torpedo mount, and lowered in the water by a crane so it could take off. However, WG already has planes that historically landed in the water and were recovered by crane just flying into the ship and appearing back on the catapult, so it'd be a very small step in terms of mechanics and programming to have the plane take off from the mount as well.

"So, why Witte de With in particular? There are other Admiralen that have as historical and tragic a story."

Yes, there are. However, those are better suited for the tech tree. Since consumables like a spotter plane and hydro change the play style, I wanted to take her out of the tech tree and make her a premium. Witte de With and van Ghent were the only ones who received ASDIC, so they're the only two candidates for this up-tiered Admiralen premium, and I like the story of Witte de With more than that of van Ghent. Plus, she has ties with HMS Exeter, and I think it very likely that we'll see the latter in game at some point as well.

"Alright. So what play style would Witte de With offer?"

She'd be very stealthy with ok-ish mobility, so she'd be a decent cap contester. This is only strengthened by the presence of a spotter plane and hydro, allowing her to see for her team and light up targets from smoke, as well as dodge torpedoes heading towards her smoke screen. She'd be a high skill floor and high skill ceiling ship with decent torpedoes and usable gun battery backup to help fight her out of tight spots, but her primary role would be scouting and cap contesting. Her small size likely makes her very agile, too.

She'd require a decent captain skill point investment to get the most out of her, with Super Intendent a must, as well as Expert Marksman, Concealment Expert and Advanced and Basic Firing Training to taste. She'd also benefit from Torpedo Armament Expertise to drop her already swift torpedo reload even further. Finally, Vigilance might be a worthwhile investment as with her concealment, Witte de With should always be up front.

So, in short:

Pros:

- Historical ship, fought in in WWII
- Ties with the RN, escorted HMS Exeter
- Unique playstyle with spotter plane and / or hydro

Cons:

- Limited appeal (NL nation not in game)
- Mid tier
- Requires entirely new model researched and build

"Hmmm. Limited appeal, NL nation not in game. That sounds like a problem."

Although she has limited appeal on the NA server as a Dutch ship, a first Dutch premium would herald and generate interest for a full tech tree. There aren't many nations left not yet in the game that WG would implement as full nations with their own tree, and the Dutch have the potential for the potential for a DD tree line supplemented with only a few design proposals and a cruiser tech tree with a reasonable mix of historical vessels and design proposals. Having that first premium offer some new and unique gameplay will further help sell the ship and generate interest.

"Wait, potential for a full Dutch DD and cruiser tech tree? What?"

Yes.

Spoiler

DD tree:

T1: van Kinsbergen or K-class (Built in steel)
T2: Wolf (Built in steel)
T3: Jakhals (Wolf with slight theoretical upgrade)
T4: First group Admiralen (Built in steel, give Whitehead torpedoes)
T5: Second group Admiralen (Built in steel, give Mk 10* torpedoes)
T6: Gerard Callenburgh as designed (Built in steel) (Witte de With as premium with full consumable suite)
T7: Isaac Sweers (Built in steel)
T8: Holland (Built in steel, did not have torpedoes historically, might need theoretical torpedo inclusion)
T9: Friesland (Built in steel, did not have torpedoes historically, though two Friesland class were temporarily given 8x tubes in the early 1960s)
T10: Amsterdam (Built in steel, friesland class, give it the in-trials speed of 43 knots and the 1960s torpedo loadout)

CL tree:

T1: van Kinsbergen or K-class (Built in steel)
T2: Gelderland protected cruiser (Built in steel)
T3: Java (Built in steel)
T4: Tromp (Built in steel)
T5: de Ruyter (Built in steel)
T6: Eendracht as designed (Laid down, not finished)
T7: de Zeven Provincien (1953) (Built in steel)
T8: 16.000 ton armored cruiser (Theoretical design. Unfortunately there's not much information on this design)
T9: 1047 (Theoretical design, based on existing drawings)
T10: Project 323 (Theoretical design, based on existing drawings)

Even if WG would not consider adding a full Dutch tree (though I don't see why not, they're running out of other nations not-yet-in-the-game that could conceivably offer a full tree) there is still space for Witte de With in this game as precursor to a pan-european tree, which I hope would have a significant Dutch presence. She could occupy the Tier 6 destroyer premium spot, while Błyskawica sits at tier 7.

"Wait, I thought you didn't like balancing ships by gimmick?"

You're right, I don't. Normally. However, if a Dutch DD tree is going to be implemented, Admiralen is a shoe-in for tier 4 / 5 already and likely not get the spotter plane. I think it would be a complete waste of potential if no version of her was implemented with spotter plane, and the only way to realistically solve that is to implement a variant with. However, since this puts her above T5 category in terms of potential / performance, T6 premium is the only realistic place she could go.

"Ok, but what would she cost, if implemented at T6?"

Likely a very similar price to any of the existing premium T6 destroyers. Right now Monaghan is in the store for $25-ish. I'd wager Witte de With would cost somewhere around that too. Maybe a bit less, maybe a bit more, but no more than $30 for the base ship and a slot, without bundle.

"What style of camouflage might she wear?"

There are two options, really.

First is flat gray with large, white 'WW' on the sides:

URxlWGQ.jpg

Second is a blocky, light-and-dark-gray pattern:

2kzOxWw.jpg

This picture though is likely not Witte de With. It's probably Evertsen, a sistership. however, it shows precedence for an Admiralen in camouflage, and thus I would consider it an option for Witte de With in this game.

Personally I'm partial to the clean, light gray scheme with the large 'WW' on the sides, but that's just me.

"How do you pronounce the name, Witte de With?"

'Wittuh duh Wit'. The 'h' is not considered, so the 'With' part is pronounced like 'wit' with a hard T. There is a slight emphasis on the first syllable of the name, and all syllables are spoken at reasonably quick pace, none linger.

Thank you for taking the time to read this proposal, and please support a dutch inclusion into WoWS. We have Haida, there is a pan-American nation upcoming with Nueve de Julio, so it's about time the Dutch were considered as well.

Thanks to @LittleWhiteMouse for helping me put this proposal together, and for coming up with a possible national flavor for Dutch destroyers:

Quote

Have them lose less speed in a turn. This makes them more agile, without giving them stupidly fast or giving them unrealistic turning circles. Think of a whole line of destroyers with Sims maneuverability.

Personally, I really like this idea. It's new, it's fun to play, it's a national flavor and it actually has a small basis in history. Admiral Michiel de Ruyter had a whole fleet of shallow-draft ships built which gave them exceptional maneuverability and the ability to go where his adversaries couldn't, allowing him to outmaneuver his opponents and win decisive battles that way.

 

Sources used:

@Pigeon_of_War

 

-------------------------------------------------

 

End quote.

Again, not my idea, but an idea by NA user Lert, who gave me permission to post it here.

I'm already enthousiast for this idea, and I'm curious what you think about it.

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Beta Tester
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Witte De With would be a nice addition to the game, this game needs a Dutch ship, ideally before another Russian one.

 

We also need another British Premium Cruiser with the removal of Belfast, and Exeter is a must-have-premium so would be very fitting. 

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I like it. Not a definite purchase, but I would certainly consider her and would welcome her to the game.

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Although the work he did is remarkable and the ship seems well thought its a big no from me.
No more gimmick ships.
It started with loyang as a hydro ship, and it was ok at first since it was just 1 ship.
And a year later we had 2 lines that focused around hydro and radar as the nations flavor.

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[PKTZS]
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To be honest, a DD with plane sounds one of the most stupid ideas I've heard in these forums.

 

I'm all for a Premium Dutch DD, but this is a tier 4-5 at best. Don't uptier it for idiotic features.

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Not sure if it's that stupid. Without the plane (that can be shot down of course) it seems to be a mediocre ship.

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[PKTZS]
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No need to put a link to the Fletchers. The Dutch Admiralen-class had this feature and that's why it's been suggested. It was simply an experiment, as were the Fletchers.

 

It's still something idiotic in WoWs.

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On the Dutch destroyers it was not an experiment. They were designed this way. The preceding Wolf-class got planes on board somewhere in the 1920s, maybe you could call that an experiment. That still doesn't explain why iirc all Wolf class ships got planes on board. The Gerard Callenburgh-class that came after the Admiralen-class was designed with an airplane on board as well, only this time the German invasion prevented those plans.

 

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On 2018-08-04 at 12:19 AM, Robber_Baron said:

There aren't many nations left not yet in the game that WG would implement as full nations with their own tree

I wouldn't mind this ship in the game, nice premium ship with its gimmick and according to me we need more "Blyskavica"s, i.e. premium ships promoting one nation even if they are alone. To make players be able to play their own nations ship and if possible grind out captains well before possible tech-tree are being released. 

 

On 2018-08-04 at 12:19 AM, Robber_Baron said:

These were license built copies of a Bofors design and fired a 24 kg HE shell at 900 mps. This is an excellent muzzle velocity and would give it very good ballistics over range and short time-to-target, for a 120mm gun. I believe these guns to be near as indistinguishable from the guns on the in-game Błyskawica, as they are both similar vintage Bofors designed 120mm guns with a 50 caliber barrel length, 900 mps muzzle velocity and a ~10 RPM ROF. Taking Błyskawica's numbers, we get to a HE shell with 1700 dmg and an 8.5% fire chance, and an AP shell with 2200 damage. If they really are as similar to Błyskawica's guns as I imagine them to be, they would likely inherit the Polish ship's sluggish 18s turn rate.

My Swedish heart feels like it would be nice to have some Swedish ships in this game before we start to implement more ships with licence built Bofors guns developed for the Swedish navy.

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I definitely support idea of premium Dutch ship and I don't mind if that is one of Admiralen Class destroyers, even tho my personal choice would be Isaac Sweers. But some of my opinions on proposal 

  • Spotter Plane -   Well this could be interesting so why not
  • Hydro - Fact that ship has hydro IRL is not particularly strong argument for the ship representation in the game have it too. By 1942 (almost) every USN fleet destroyer had a radar, USS Fletcher from the start had two of them, and of course every single one had sonar. But giving them to game model would be a bad move. So I don't think adding more ships with hydro at low tiers is a good idea.
  • Tiering - This DD should be T4 or T5. It is simple to weak for T6

So I guess it could be T5 premium. Consumable wise it could be interesting to at least test spotter plane as a unique consumable but I'm against hydro.

 

Fun fact: SMS V-25 (of V-25 class) briefly had a float-plane on board instead of one of her guns. 

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1 hour ago, fumtu said:

I definitely support idea of premium Dutch ship and I don't mind if that is one of Admiralen Class destroyers, even tho my personal choice would be Isaac Sweers. But some of my opinions on proposal 

  • Spotter Plane -   Well this could be interesting so why not
  • Hydro - Fact that ship has hydro IRL is not particularly strong argument for the ship representation in the game have it too. By 1942 (almost) every USN fleet destroyer had a radar, USS Fletcher from the start had two of them, and of course every single one had sonar. But giving them to game model would be a bad move. So I don't think adding more ships with hydro at low tiers is a good idea.
  • Tiering - This DD should be T4 or T5. It is simple to weak for T6

So I guess it could be T5 premium. Consumable wise it could be interesting to at least test spotter plane as a unique consumable but I'm against hydro.

 

Fun fact: SMS V-25 (of V-25 class) briefly had a float-plane on board instead of one of her guns. 

I partly agree. If I had to give up a consumable I would give up hydro I think, especially since the spotter plane was such a distinctive feature for the Admiralen-class (and the Wolf-class later in their careers).

 

I think Isaac Sweers would be a safe ship to pick. She had an interesting history. Lert suggested it as a silver ship. I wouldn't be surprised however if Lert is already working on a new article about her. He made an older article, but lately he posted topics for proposals about the cruisers De Zeven Provinciën and Maya, the battleship California, the Dutch planned battlecruiser Project 1047, and the destroyers Friesland-class and Witte de With. I only copied the latter so far, but I might copy more.

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7 minutes ago, Robber_Baron said:

I think Isaac Sweers would be a safe ship to pick. She had an interesting history. Lert suggested it as a silver ship.

 

Why would Isaac Sweers be a silver ship? I mean Gerard Callenburgh was lead destroyer of the class, why wouldn't she be silver ship and Isaac Sweers a premium? Isaac Sweers had more distinguished carrier and also she had somewhat different armament compared to original design for the class.

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Tier 5 with the spotter plane gimmick, good hydro range, and the national flavor of losing less speed in a turn. Otherwise no purchase from me.

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On 8/8/2018 at 3:37 PM, Robber_Baron said:

Because he intended Gerard Callenburgh as the tier 6 silver ship.

 

I guess this is Lert proposal for Dutch DD line

 

DD tree:

T1: van Kinsbergen or K-class (Built in steel)
T2: Wolf (Built in steel)
T3: Jakhals (Wolf with slight theoretical upgrade)
T4: First group Admiralen (Built in steel, give Whitehead torpedoes)
T5: Second group Admiralen (Built in steel, give Mk 10* torpedoes)
T6: Gerard Callenburgh as designed (Built in steel) (Witte de With as premium with full consumable suite)
T7: Isaac Sweers (Built in steel)
T8: Holland (Built in steel, did not have torpedoes historically, might need theoretical torpedo inclusion)
T9: Friesland (Built in steel, did not have torpedoes historically, though two Friesland class were temporarily given 8x tubes in the early 1960s)
T10: Amsterdam (Built in steel, friesland class, give it the in-trials speed of 43 knots and the 1960s torpedo loadout)

 

I don't know ... some of those ships doesn't seems particularly good to me. T2 and T3 are bad compared with other DDs. V-25 had almost twice displacement of Wolf class and 3 times more torps. Basically all T2 DDs were two times heavier. which means two times more HP and better armed. Even Smith would have more guns, more HP and more torps. Wolf and Jakhals both look quite week. Also don't like having two ships of the same class for two different tiers and here that is done four times for T2/T3, T4/T5, T6/T7 and T9/T10. This seems like trying to get a full line no matter does this is viable or not. Only notable difference between Gerard Callenburgh and Isaac Sweers are guns - 5 x 1 120mm compared to 3 x 2 4 inch (102mm) guns. And you'll need either and IFHE for 4 inch guns or 1/4 pen rule as they wouldn't be able to deal any damage to T8 and T9 DDs. And you won't need IFHE on the T8 to T10 which means no consistency.

 

I think that Dutch Navy should be part of some combined NE & NWE tree as this looks too stretched to me. Maybe if there were some paper designs that could fill holes as now there only three, maybe four, classes that seems suitable for the game. If there are than I'm for it but I'm not a big fan of putting the lines just for a sake that somebody want them there because of national pride. 

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I'm squarely behind this if it can be made real. While certainly not the biggest of the modern navies, the Dutch sure deserve being represented in the game due to their overall influence on naval history.

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