Game Modifications: Pros and Cons

[Tsukotaku]

Ignoring the community on every level. Europeans are quite accustomed to it by now, and we could it see it coming since alpha. 

Considering that a mod giving an unfair advantage may be accepted as normal...  BS

You have two choices, put a aim help/aimbot whatever you name it, into the game for everyone, or, ban it, and its users.

There is no "consideration".

Most of the tester warn you about it, they may not be as hyped as you think, it could just be the result of a very simple logical process.

In the end please don't forget to tell PR department that shallow game are rarely a success.

 

[mtm78]

Ignoring the community on every level. Europeans are quite accustomed to it by now, and we could it see it coming since alpha. 

Considering that a mod giving an unfair advantage may be accepted as normal...  BS

You have two choices, put a aim help/aimbot whatever you name it, into the game for everyone, or, ban it, and its users.

There is no "consideration".

Most of the tester warn you about it, they may not be as hyped as you think, it could just be the result of a very simple logical process.

In the end please don't forget to tell marketing department that shallow game are rarely a success.

 

[PzKpfwVIB]

Well... was wondering why there were so much "heavy damage" on my ships (Fuso and "space-Yamato" for example) since few days... This mod must be removed ASAP as it's ruining the game currently by bringing suspicious among testers during battles. So devs have to find a way to interdict the mod and it's users to avoid more toxic behaviour than there already have in this CBT

[VonVolks]

wow, I've been away for a few days and I can't even believe a mod like this would be possible / acceptable.

 

Even if a mod only gave you a 1% improvement, let alone insta hits form long range , citadel benefits and blind fire terrain help, then it would be no good.

 

Its mind boggling this is even a discussion? Even if I was the only person allowed to have this mod, it STILL wouldn't be a pro, as it would still spoil the game.

 

 

[Duncandonut]

While playing the game you do get pretty good at predicting where your shots will land, this aimbot mod means that you don't have to even think about how far to lead the target. This obviously gives people an unfair advantage. The mod itself should be banned ASAP before it creates a more toxic atmosphere. Hell at the moment every time someone gets a lucky shot the chat is filled with people claiming that they were sunk by someone using an aimbot.

 

Simple way to look at mods. If it is giving people a clear advantage over others that are not using the mod then it should be banned. Skins for your HuD or damage tracking mods are fine as they give no advantage. An aimbot the likes of which we are seeing at the moment is clearly breaking what is considered "Good Sportsmanship".

[80yearoldpotato]

Tsukotaku for president!

Everyone needs to be playing wows on a level play field. when mods start to ignore gamechanging gameplay (calculating the lead to hit you target horizontally and vertical) just ban em with the hammer. Make a scripts ingame that search for those modfiles.  I belive WG told us this statement to try and calm us and when you dont have a answer to the current issue, statements tend to be vague.

 

Ive enjoyed the CBT until i met the ones with the mod. I can tell when i get shot at by a player with that mod BECAUSE the majority of players dont get that good within a month.

So WG think hard and long on this, if the one in charge doesnt get that the community does not like that mod and its gamechanging, then you sir are dooming your own game.

[Kartoffelmos]

Ummm, not to be that guy, but wouldn't it be a major PR fiasco if suddenly every online game magazines started publishing that a certain unreleased game had (so-called) aimbots developed for it and that the developers didn't care (or rather, hasn't "publicly" condemned the use of the tool)?

 

In any case, the real issue is that it enables every player and their grandmother to target the citadel with absolute precision. Sure, I can estimate roughly where I need to aim in order to hit it in 5-14 seconds, but having a tool show me exactly where to aim isn't exactly what I would call a fair. RNG and ship manoeuvres may throw off the prediction, yes, but you still have a greater chance of hitting the target than without the mod. Luck or every "if so-and-so, then the mod would not give an advantage"-situations should not be taken into consideration when discussing if the mod should be banned or not. After all, if you don't fire a single shell, the mod would not give a single advantage and thus is perfectly balanced...

 

EDIT: Trololo, I did the mayor/major mistake. Me so silly.

[DBaron]

Ummm, not to be that guy, but wouldn't it be a mayor PR fiasco if suddenly every online game magazines started publishing that a certain unreleased game had (so-called) aimbots developed for it and that the developers didn't care (or rather, hasn't "publicly" condemned the use of the tool)?

Honestly? I think WG would welcome that as free-PR because curiosity will drive probably more ppl to check it out for themselves than it will turn away

[WOTomatoSauce]

You will need to set a limit. Is a aim bot the line?

 

[Mitchverr]

Honestly? I think WG would welcome that as free-PR because curiosity will drive probably more ppl to check it out for themselves than it will turn away

 

Thats very debatable, plenty of MMO games crashed and burned because of things like this and given every time i have seen it mentioned outside the forum it gets nothing but contempt and people saying they refuse to even play when it goes open beta if not removed, well, i dont think thats going to be likely as most people would rather play a game for fun and a bit of a challenge, not for insta death.

[ThePluckyBrit]

 

I've been curious in relation to the existence of an aim bot in game as some players are simply too lucky of late, were they using the aim mod, who knows, but now I'll assume they were and consider the game unbalanced due to mod intervention. It's a toxic thing to allow to creep into a game during a testing stage.

I purchased all three pre order ships, discovering the existence of this mod gives me pause to wonder if that was wise, I did intend to pick up another 14500 gold to try out the Atlanta and tier 8 Japanese cruiser but now I'll hold fire to see how this develops.

WG YOUVE MADE A FANTASTIC GAME HERE, DONT LET MODS RUIN IT BEFORE ITS OUT OF THE STARTING GATE!

 

 

[Tugnut]

Tuccy next time your predicting your shot try to look at it via how long you take to aim that shot and thought process. Taking your thought from mini map and whats going round you. It might take only 1 or 2 sec but some one that just has to line up shoot then not worry about keeping the lead on watching what the target is doing to adjust aim. And keep eye out for dd and bombers. And your saying some one that can just point to what they get told to aim at has no advantage! 

[OldGrandad]

I am a bit of a 'fiddler' and like ripping things apart to see how they work, in the below spoiler I have included the python code that makes up this rather hotly debated mod.

 

 

import BigWorld, Keys
import GUI, Math
import math
from Avatar import PlayerAvatar
from Vehicle import Vehicle
import InputHandler
import PrimInstDrawer
import AimAssist
__author__ = 'STL1te'
modActivated = True

def getForestallingPoint(target, player):
    gunParams = player.vehicle.components.artillery.guns[0].aimParams
    fp = AimAssist.getAimPoint(player, target, gunParams)
    return fp

class ForestallingPoint(object):

    def __init__(self, player, target):
        if hasattr(self, '_ForestallingPoint__gui'):
            self.destroy()
        self.__updateCallback = None
        self.__target = target
        self.__player = player
        self.update()
        return

    def __del__(self):
        self.destroy()

    def destroy(self):
        try:
            BigWorld.cancelCallback(self.__updateCallback)
        except:
            pass

    def update(self):
        global modActivated
        try:
            if modActivated:
                if self.__target and self.__player:
                    if self.__target.isEnterWorld and self.__player.vehicle.isEnterWorld:
                        vector = getForestallingPoint(self.__target, self.__player)
                        pos = self.__target.position + (0, 0.5, 0)
                        PrimInstDrawer.drawLines([vector, pos], 4294967295L, 1, False)
                        PrimInstDrawer.drawStar(vector, 0.5, 4294901760L, 1)
                    if self.__target.health <= 0:
                        self.destroy()
                        return
            self.__updateCallback = BigWorld.callback(0.01, self.update)
        except:
            pass

old_startVarys = Vehicle.startVarys
old_stopVarys = Vehicle.stopVarys

def new_startVarys(self):
    old_startVarys(self)
    if BigWorld.player().teamId == self.teamId:
        return
    if self.isPlayer:
        return
    if self.health <= 0:
        return
    player = BigWorld.player()
    target = self
    self.__FPpoint = ForestallingPoint(player, target)

def new_stopVarys(self):
    old_stopVarys(self)
    if BigWorld.player().teamId == self.teamId:
        return
    if self.isPlayer:
        return
    try:
        self.__FPpoint.destroy()
    except:
        pass

Vehicle.startVarys = new_startVarys
Vehicle.stopVarys = new_stopVarys

def blabla(*args):
    print 'blabla', args

def handleKeyDown(event):
    global modActivated
    if event.key == Keys.KEY_F8:
        print 'mod activated'
        modActivated = not modActivated

old_handleKeyEvent = InputHandler.handleKeyEvent

def new_handleKeyEvent(event):
    if event.isKeyDown():
        handleKeyDown(event)
    return old_handleKeyEvent(event)

InputHandler.handleKeyEvent = new_handleKeyEvent

 

The line I highlighted and underlined was what I am curious about but not being a coder could not connect it to another file. In World_of_Warships\res\scripts\client\Camera there is a file named - AimAssistant.pyc and as that is part of the vanilla build wondered whether it was connected to that?

 

It is hard to judge as because WG had already the ability to have a lead aim (and decided themselves not to add it) it does not take much (for an able coder) to re-enable it as we have seen. 

 

I am now waiting patiently and praying that some degree of reasoning comes to WG and they come to realise that more harm is being done than good in allowing their code to be manipulated like this.

[mtm78]

I am a bit of a 'fiddler' and like ripping things apart to see how they work, in the below spoiler I have included the python code that makes up this rather hotly debated mod.

 

 

import BigWorld, Keys
import GUI, Math
import math
from Avatar import PlayerAvatar
from Vehicle import Vehicle
import InputHandler
import PrimInstDrawer
import AimAssist
__author__ = 'STL1te'
modActivated = True

def getForestallingPoint(target, player):
    gunParams = player.vehicle.components.artillery.guns[0].aimParams
    fp = AimAssist.getAimPoint(player, target, gunParams)
    return fp

class ForestallingPoint(object):

    def __init__(self, player, target):
        if hasattr(self, '_ForestallingPoint__gui'):
            self.destroy()
        self.__updateCallback = None
        self.__target = target
        self.__player = player
        self.update()
        return

    def __del__(self):
        self.destroy()

    def destroy(self):
        try:
            BigWorld.cancelCallback(self.__updateCallback)
        except:
            pass

    def update(self):
        global modActivated
        try:
            if modActivated:
                if self.__target and self.__player:
                    if self.__target.isEnterWorld and self.__player.vehicle.isEnterWorld:
                        vector = getForestallingPoint(self.__target, self.__player)
                        pos = self.__target.position + (0, 0.5, 0)
                        PrimInstDrawer.drawLines([vector, pos], 4294967295L, 1, False)
                        PrimInstDrawer.drawStar(vector, 0.5, 4294901760L, 1)
                    if self.__target.health <= 0:
                        self.destroy()
                        return
            self.__updateCallback = BigWorld.callback(0.01, self.update)
        except:
            pass

old_startVarys = Vehicle.startVarys
old_stopVarys = Vehicle.stopVarys

def new_startVarys(self):
    old_startVarys(self)
    if BigWorld.player().teamId == self.teamId:
        return
    if self.isPlayer:
        return
    if self.health <= 0:
        return
    player = BigWorld.player()
    target = self
    self.__FPpoint = ForestallingPoint(player, target)

def new_stopVarys(self):
    old_stopVarys(self)
    if BigWorld.player().teamId == self.teamId:
        return
    if self.isPlayer:
        return
    try:
        self.__FPpoint.destroy()
    except:
        pass

Vehicle.startVarys = new_startVarys
Vehicle.stopVarys = new_stopVarys

def blabla(*args):
    print 'blabla', args

def handleKeyDown(event):
    global modActivated
    if event.key == Keys.KEY_F8:
        print 'mod activated'
        modActivated = not modActivated

old_handleKeyEvent = InputHandler.handleKeyEvent

def new_handleKeyEvent(event):
    if event.isKeyDown():
        handleKeyDown(event)
    return old_handleKeyEvent(event)

InputHandler.handleKeyEvent = new_handleKeyEvent

 

The line I highlighted and underlined was what I am curious about but not being a coder could not connect it to another file. In World_of_Warships\res\scripts\client\Camera there is a file named - AimAssistant.pyc and as that is part of the vanilla build wondered whether it was connected to that?

 

It is hard to judge as because WG had already the ability to have a lead aim (and decided themselves not to add it) it does not take much (for an able coder) to re-enable it as we have seen. 

 

I am now waiting patiently and praying that some degree of reasoning comes to WG and they come to realise that more harm is being done than good in allowing their code to be manipulated like this.

 

 

I posted the code earlier as well and pointed out that the AimAssist class is native to the WoWs BigWorld engine, I also pointed out that it would be easy to remove it and make the mod useless, and also pointed out that doing that would be useless to an extent because people looking into it would have ripped out the class itself already. 

[_CriTiC_]

There is one good side of that mod ;) More players started to use A and D keys in battle, instead of going straight and shoting If u are moving, even with BBs, u are hard to hit target even for that mod.

[mtm78]

There is one good side of that mod ;) More players started to use A and D keys in battle, instead of going straight and shoting If u are moving, even with BBs, u are hard to hit target even for that mod.

 

That is so much untrue it hurts my eyes reading it. You know the rudder shift time of BB's higher then let's say the Kongo? You can not alter course after you see fire incoming, so you can't beat the lead aim in a BB. Hence why I been playing my cruisers mostly and destroyers otherwise, I don't like carriers and BB's are just not agile enough to dodge fire.

[_CriTiC_]

 

That is so much untrue it hurts my eyes reading it. You know the rudder shift time of BB's higher then let's say the Kongo? You can not alter course after you see fire incoming, so you can't beat the lead aim in a BB. Hence why I been playing my cruisers mostly and destroyers otherwise, I don't like carriers and BB's are just not agile enough to dodge fire.

 

Actually, i know. more than 50% of my battles are on BBs ;) When enemy BBs shoting at u, u have 15s+ to avoid that fire. Little change of direction is enough in most of times to avoid hits.

[mtm78]

Then why did you state that you can beat lead-aim with BB's by using A and D ( I prefer Q and E btw lol )? You can beat an enemy BB at max range as you got <~20s before the shells impact and that is just enough time to make them overshoot or drop short, but it requires that there is only one BB shooting you and that there is enough space to keep tacking back and forth. Also a good BB player will recognize it if you use the same pattern over and over ( something I am guilty off often, as I mostly try to have all guns pointed at the enemy when they are loaded and that means your course can be predicted ). 

[_CriTiC_]

Wow, u rly playing like that? Only on Amagi, i have 16 battles, 12 survived 8 wins. so yeah, it is possible to avoid hits and survive battle.

 

And before someone will tell that im doing nothing in battle then, k/d 1,75, 100k DPB (Amagi only stats). Its maybe not best, but more than my HP ^^

[Comet79]

My thoughts about this mod. (And apologies for my possibly not so good english).

 

I think it's a bit like hitbox skins in WoT, i mean in a way that it takes out (at least some) of the needed skill of knowing where to aim/shoot, and ( at least i think) thats one of the most important skills in ship combat, especially for longer ranges.

And unlike some have said i don't agree that it's something everyone will learn after a few games.

Id prefer players having to learn that themselves and i wish this mod would be banned but if it doesn't i guess i'll just have to wait and see what it does to gameplay when WoWs goes public and hoping it wouldn't ruin the game completely by making it just another game of point the reticle at end of the line, keep it there and click away, ofc there's still some RNG involved but i think you guys get the idea.

[OnboardG1]

Probably the most tedious and irritating part of this mod showing up are the bad players running around screaming that everyone who hit them is hacking and using the aim assist mod. Can we please just ban it to stop giving people excuses for sailing in a straight line and expecting not to get wrecked?

[HE_magnet]

 

 

 

Many of the players here all seem to agree that this mod would be detrimental to this game, and the reasons are obvious to any keen player...It is taking away a skill that is 'Honed' over many games and as such

players feel cheated by anyone who uses it...Players with a bit of skill like to be rewarded by their results ....And you will take that away from them..

 

 

An interesting question for you would be why would you even consider this mod at this stage of the game when you are still trying to balance player income/Finance/ships as its use would corrupt your data?..My only 

guess is that you are trying to mabye cater for younger/Newer players so that they are not put off by getting killed alot in the early stages??...Apart from that i am at a loss?..

 

The simple fact is that this mod is a gamechanger and in time i think your data will tell you this...and as others have said here if it is accepted by you into the game then it needs to be available to all from the very first game...

.or even better is just make it available for use in co-op battles if your concerns are as stated earlier

 

 

At the moment this game is gaining a good reputation and has good credibility....I fear that if you do not do the right thing then these can be easily lost so quick in the gaming community...then this game will never reach

its full potential.

[80yearoldpotato]

Probably the most tedious and irritating part of this mod showing up are the bad players running around screaming that everyone who hit them is hacking and using the aim assist mod. Can we please just ban it to stop giving people excuses for sailing in a straight line and expecting not to get wrecked?

the damage is already done. Players that die because they did a mistake and are too ignorant to see it will blame others for this mod from now on and for atleast a year coming.

What WG needs to do is just release a patch and rewrite the code so it cant be used. That way all of this gone. WG probably understands that new players will leave this game as fast as they come to it, when they realize that others are using mods to club them. All i want is the game to be fair and imo mods to make it easier for people is not the way to go.

[Kranodor]

On the other hand we definitely do not want mods that harm the game experience for you. However, there are more than one way to proceed and each has benefits and drawbacks that need to be investigated and carefully considered. Similarly, an impact of the mods themselves needs to be evaluated, as often the news about their influence can be over-hyped. 

 

While aim prediction is a skill, it is not the most crucial one regarding the victory in a WoWS battle, ...

 

Main thing, though... is to stay calm. We are in a test stage, the more we find out now, the more we can prepare for before the next stages of the game. In the spirit of this... we are eager to hear your feedback, but try to keep your passions under control, avoid name calling and ad hominem directed personal attacks against players who do not share your point of view. 

 

Tuccy, let me start off by saying that I know that the discussion can heat up, there's a lot of hype and arguments get lost in the fray. We should remember to stay calm. But you cannot ignore that not only the majority of posts on this topic are very clear about this mod, it's as unequivocal as it gets on an online forum to a game, and it is - by staff involvement or not - all conducted in a very respectful, considerate and factual tone (if staff is clearing up disrespectful or non-factual posts or such, the pure amount of posts staying here still proves my point). And while the posts include a fair amount of cursing, most of them also provide substantial arguments, in amounts I have rarely seen on the World of Tanks forum, for example. The point is: People are staying calm. This is not the hysterical mass driven by conspiracy theories that wants to burn WG at the stake for killing the good in the world. This is a group of players who either make technical arguments, or state their experience.

 

For technical arguments, "while aim prediction is a skill", I'd continue that sentence with "it is the ONLY skill that you can avoid learning yourself by installing a mod". It is a skill, it is something you require - or should require - to be better at the game. If somebody scores a great hit on me because he's lucky, then congratulations to him, happens to me too, happens rarely. If someone scores a great hit on me because that player is that good, then congratulations to him, I want to be him when I grow up (in WoWs, at least) - this is one of the fun aspects of a PvP game to me: Seeing how good other people are and aspiring to get as good myself.

If, however, he scores a great hit on me - one that he could otherwise not have scored because it was not his luck this time, and he doesn't have the skill - just because he uses a mod (and I refuse to install mods to even the odds - the game should be fair in vanilla, and I rarely use mods - ANY mods at all) then it's just bad. More so if somebody with a fair amount of skill already plays the mod right, and manages to do amazing hits because of it. (Because if getting the lead right is something you learn "after a few battles", then it takes no time to learn to extrapolate where the citadel is relative to the centre of mass, and then aim that much relative to the aim circle.)

 

Likewise,

 

While the feedback is indeed negative, there is also a measure of knee-jerk reactions mixed in. Every time a ship is hit, accusations of aimmod use are thrown around, but who's to say that the use of that mod has become so prevalent among the playerbase?

 

If it has indeed become pervasive to the point of more vulnerable classes being useless (mainly BBs, due to their lower reaction capacity), then action will be taken.

 

Yes. Such accusations always are quick  to be thrown around, because it's knee-jerk. Same with gold ammo on WoT, or aim bots, back then, when tracer-shooting was still a thing. But on this thread a number of people have noted that they tried the mod themselves (out of curiosity or feeling obligated to get a first-hand opinion first), and are shocked with the results. Prevalence among the playerbase shouldn't be the question, it doesn't matter how many players use a game-breaking bug, or exploit, or mod, or whatever. It stays a game-breaking bug, exploit, mod or whatever, and it will drive people to either use it themselves, or have a diminished game experience / quit the game. And what if the prevalence was high? How long until "since everybody is using it, it has to be okay"?

Honestly? Waiting for the prevalence of a game-breaking mod to be so high as to render a complete ship class being useless because of it on a statistically significant scale across the whole game... is pretty much waiting for the horse to bolt before locking the stable door.

 

On World of Tanks (I know, this isn't World of Tanks, but stay with me for just a little longer) I'm always wary of the "manipulated match-maker crowd" yelling how many chains of how many losses they have. My point is always: "I'll listen to them when they complain about many long chains of victories just as much." There's always a lot of entitlement flying around, to the point of actually believing that a game developer manipulates a mechanism creating millions of battles everyday to put one player at a disadvantage by sorting 29 other players around him in such a fashion that he ends up in the "bound to lose" team every time. People over-react all the time. And people will always find an excuse why the other player has beaten them, and it is rarely "because he was better at the game".

 

But, please, believe me (as someone who has seen a lot of hype, overreactions and similar discussions on a variety of games, and whether there was an actual issue or not): The overwhelming response in this thread is that the mod is, indeed, game-breaking, and it has to go. People have tested it themselves and concluded that way, so this is not an uninformed over-reaction. It ranges from concerns to first-hand experiences, and even if you write off the former, I'd be careful to do that with the latter. I can't demand anything, and wishing doesn't help. But I will urge you - WG - to take this seriously. Yes, we're here to test. Heed the results.

[artisticgoose]

Modders... Yeh can't live with 'em and yeh can't live without 'em!!!!!  ....seriously though. I'm all for scope and GUI changes (graphical only) sound mods, music mods, voice mods. I'm al for skins on ships. BUT THAT'S IT!!!!!!!!

 

For a modders to start messing about with the main core of the game so they can have an advantage and cheat, that for me is wrong!!! So if the only way to stop these cheaters is to put a full ban on the lot then so be it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!