Game Modifications: Pros and Cons

[xsanti]

Just asking. How far do you think these mod makers wil go.

 

I bet they already ar working on a modpack like the Warpack cheating mod in WOT.

 

Mod makers have freedom now to do as they pleased so they can make chaets in these modpacks and WG letting them.

 

What will become off the game? wel same as the 2 other games. people will quit and WG will have a communety of cheaters that will be bored off the game verry quickly and also quit because all will have these kind of mods sp it will stay the same.

 

But you also have players who love to play tactical but wont be able bacause of these cheating mods that will come if WG dont take a stand in it.

Same happens with CoD. players went crazzy with cheating and destroyed the gamùe verry quickly. 

Wot same.

WoWp same.

 

These mods will be the destruction of WG itself if you dont set a limmit to these mods.

Its not hard to make a list of forbiden mods.

 

Gameplay changing mods= forbiden and bannable

skin and grafical mods = ok

 

as long that not one mod changes the gameplay in a advantage for newbies.

[Figment]

sunday, on 11 April 2015 - 12:50 AM, said:

 

Are you familiar with basic probability theory? If not, see this. Of course that if there are more hits on the hull of a ship, then there will be more citadel penetrations - in the long run, of course. It is just common sense. One could say, even that RNG is applied several times, and the same number of times, to each shot. However, shots that, once the first pass of RNG applied are going into the water are not going to do any damage, so the result of the calculation could be known at the moment they hit water, so no need of generate additional random numbers; shots that hit the ship (after applying the previous pass of RNG) but do not penetrate the armor (after applying a new pass of RNG)  are not going to do any damage, etc.

 

That's exactly what I said. So I don't really see your point of asking if I know probability theory. I'm thinking you are confused here.

 

sunday, on 11 April 2015 - 12:50 AM, said:

I mean, the actual implementation could cut some corners and do not strictly apply RNG to every shot, as the product of 0 by something finite will be 0 always, but mathematically is just the same.

 

Now, I think you will understand that I think you may want to recant one accusation you previously did.

 

What accusation? 

 

The only accusation I've made in this thread is that Tuccy doesn't understand RNG properly regarding the chances of hitting something.

 

Because he made the false claim that RNG affects manual and assisted aim equally, because he made the false assumption that manual aim and assisted aim provide an equal amount of shots dead on target. RNG calculations work the same, but because assisted aim is better, it will provide less random numbers that cause misses, due to assisted aim's RNG sampling being closer on target, thus generating more hits in comparison, thus generating more chance of penetrations per hit and a higher chance of criticals per salvo.

 

I do not revoke any of my words, I made the accusation that Tuccy made a false claim and based on this false assumption made a claim about how RNG works out in both cases as equal chances, while only the RNG for equal shots is the same. But since volleys of both sides aren't equally well aimed, it would be [edited] to suggest you would get the same RNG results.

 

Indeed, what I said is that per volley:

 

12 shells x off target x RNG = 0 hits => 0 penetrations => 0 damage

12 shells x slightly off target x RNG = 0 to a few hits => small chance of penetrations => small chance of damage

12 shells x slightly on target x RNG = 0 to a few more hits => small chance of penetrations => small chance of damage

12 shells x on target x RNG = a number to 12 hits => increased chance of penetrations => increased chance of damage

 

Where I claimed that with manual aim, all four occur on a regular basis depending purely on player skill, but also taking more time for the player to assess the shot. Whereas with the assisted aim mod the first case becomes less likely and the third and fourth case in particular significantly more likely and on a more consistent basis, occuring more frequently, not just because the aim is better, but also because it takes less time to aim and because it is more likely to happen at all ranges. Tuccy on the other hand claimed that both cases provide an entirely equal chance of occuring "even at maximum range". See his remarks in the opening post.

 

If anything, you've supported my statements, so I don't really get why you want me to recant "accusations". What I also still don't get is why you started asking me about penetration mechanisms, since I never spoke about those in the first place. Maybe you would like to clarify why you asked me about penetration documentation?

 

Magni56, on 11 April 2015 - 02:39 AM, said:

Resli, on 11 April 2015 - 01:46 AM, said:

I played a match in my Kongo yesterday and right at the start a Nagato blow my first front turret up (perma) with just one shot, not a full salvo. OK that happens a few times. Continue with 3 turrets...  few minutes later I engaged a fight with him at closer range and then he shot ALL OF MY TURRETS to a useless wreck. I killed him anyway with my secondarys LOL, but PLS wargaming do something with that disgusting unfair mod and the users of that!!

 

Not the mod. It gives an aimpoint for your central citadel hitbox, not your turrets. His first hit was likely a lucky ranging shot and later at close range, he either aimed too high or was deliberately going for your turrets.

 

Agreed. That is indeed more likely a consequence of the turrets being more prone to being hit critically since last week's patch.
 

[Kruzenstern]

Before the hype about the aim mods started, I was hit in a cruiser by a battleship at 18+km range once in a blue moon (in fact I remember one single instance). Now it happens quite regularly. And not just when I am driving straight, even when I am turning. Remember, that aim prediction not just gives a point to shoot at, the movement of the aimpoint also gives a good indication where someone is turning (just like the one for Torpedoes does), and if the player abusing it is semi-smart he will not simply shoot the point but project the movement of the point to where his shells will likely hit and then shoot there. That is much much easier than predicting ship movement by simply watching the ship.

 

Especially on battleships with their long flight times an aiming prediction is a massive help especially if the user is a decent player in the first place and does not just shoot at the point, but uses the additional info the point provides. And this really should not be in the game at all, or there for everyone (which imho would be a complete fun killer).

[Tsukotaku]

Captains,

 

As many of you already know, there are various types of modifications (mods) popping up in large numbers since the release of Closed Beta and in some cases, already in Closed Alpha. The mods range in scope and impact from Blue Steel Arpeggio skins through to GUI modifications, and some mods which can raise a lot of passions on the forum.

 

This is not entirely unexpected – after all, the modding community in World of Tanks is very active and we had good reasons to believe that many WoT modders will cross to WoWS as well. This dovetails neatly with the main purpose of Closed Beta Test: to test the game in all aspects, from balance through to user comfort, and also how much will the more inquisitive or ingenious of you manage to break it. 

 

On one hand obviously every mod brings in the threat of breaking something. However the vast majority of mods are clear contributions to the game experience. We often hear suggestions to just make the game non-moddable - but that would not guarantee a determined enough modder won't find some loopholes given enough time and determination, so it won't be 100% prevention of harmful mods, it will just harm the normal modders and the community. the way to go is, instead, to find a way how to be selective in these aspects.

 

On the other hand we definitely do not want mods that harm the game experience for you. However, there are more than one way to proceed and each has benefits and drawbacks that need to be investigated and carefully considered. Similarly, an impact of the mods themselves needs to be evaluated, as often the news about their influence can be over-hyped. 

 

Let's look at the target prediction as an example: The hype is massive! From calling it "autoaim" or "aimbot" - i.e. implying it lets you do something automatically - to rumors that it improves accuracy...etc.

 

However, the aim prediction doesn't give you anything you don't get after few battles yourself. Even at maximal range, it is extremely easy to score first salvo hits on ships that sail in a straight line and are large, for example battleships. Been there, done that, most of times I do not need to lose time with ranging salvos. And once you have the range, battleships cannot easily dodge, mod or no mod. Against faster, more maneuverable targets, aim prediction does not help much – in fact it may lead to you chasing the mark and missing all the shots, while your opponent would be actually chasing your ship. UNLESS you drive predictably and then, sorry to say, you are dead meat mod or no mod. At mid to shorter ranges, with flat trajectory fire, this tool does not really help in any way, as you have already quite fast feedback as to where your shells are landing and can adjust accordingly, and you should try to go for targets elsewhere than center mass anyway.

 

While aim prediction is a skill, it is not the most crucial one regarding the victory in a WoWS battle, and is also one of the easiest to learn. What is far more crucial and harder is how not to get locked in tunnel vision, how to dodge and where to go on the map. Whoever lacks these may land a few shots more accurately than he would be able to do otherwise, but will also die faster as he will be locked in following a marker Last but not least, RNG works the same for everyone so even with aim prediction and a target moving in a straight line, at max range chances are he will miss completely.

 

This is not to say we do not follow the influence of aim prediction or any other mod out there, but I hope this helps to put the matter into a bit better perspective. The devs are following the statistics and the feedback - and preparing both countermeasures to harmful mods, easier installation of harmless mods... and so on. 

 

Main thing, though... is to stay calm. We are in a test stage, the more we find out now, the more we can prepare for before the next stages of the game. In the spirit of this... we are eager to hear your feedback, but try to keep your passions under control, avoid name calling and ad hominem directed personal attacks against players who do not share your point of view. 

 

With regards

Your WoWs team

 

Tuccy, if this is WG official statement to the EU player base... you guys didn't properly tried this modification at all or neither understand it's harmfull potential to this game. With that said, because I will not further try to make a point on this matter, I don't understand anymore why we testers are here to play WoWs to begin with. Aren't we supposed to write down also feedbacks about design related decisions by the developing team? If the 90% of us tells you "This is a b*****t and it's game breaking. Do something about it with top priority." I really think you shouldn't simply "consider" it.

[Khul]

 

Tuccy, if this is WG official statement to the EU player base... you guys didn't properly tried this modification at all or neither understand it's harmfull potential to this game. With that said, because I will not further try to make a point on this matter, I don't understand anymore why we testers are here to play WoWs to begin with. Aren't we supposed to write down also feedbacks about design related decisions by the developing team? If the 90% of us tells you "This is a b*****t and it's game breaking. Do something about it with top priority." I really think you shouldn't simply "consider" it.

 

Run out of plus-ones, but QFT.

 

I got a personalised response to an incredibly long rant about the "flavour" of the game & my fears for what will happen to ship-to-ship combat that I sent to support (the main thrust of my argument is the incredible boredom that will set in if they add the damned thing to the client itself, as it will become a glorified browser game imo), but the response was couched in much the same mealy-mouthed, shifting-the-goalposts damage-limitation speak as Tuccy's post, above.

 

I am not brimming with confidence, myself.

[Ethlarion]

 

Tuccy, if this is WG official statement to the EU player base... you guys didn't properly tried this modification at all or neither understand it's harmfull potential to this game. With that said, because I will not further try to make a point on this matter, I don't understand anymore why we testers are here to play WoWs to begin with. Aren't we supposed to write down also feedbacks about design related decisions by the developing team? If the 90% of us tells you "This is a b*****t and it's game breaking. Do something about it with top priority." I really think you shouldn't simply "consider" it.

 

+ 1000 Plus (run out of mine also )

[Petao_Sofronije]

 

Tuccy, if this is WG official statement to the EU player base... you guys didn't properly tried this modification at all or neither understand it's harmfull potential to this game. With that said, because I will not further try to make a point on this matter, I don't understand anymore why we testers are here to play WoWs to begin with. Aren't we supposed to write down also feedbacks about design related decisions by the developing team? If the 90% of us tells you "This is a b*****t and it's game breaking. Do something about it with top priority." I really think you shouldn't simply "consider" it.

 

As I said before, what is the purpose of us testing it, finding out that this AimAid mod is bad, for the game's meta, for community etc. just so WG Staff can say : Play on, dont mind that mod, dont mind the fact you are getting pulverized by some anonymous, wanna be, tomato (sorry, sorry I did not mean to offend the tomato). I urge you to make a simple survey, on forum or sending it via email. Ask people what is wrong, demand answers, and make your final call after publishing the results. What ever you rule after that you know how people fell, and how most will react. I have worked in public research projects, and it will give you near 98% honest answer on what to do.

TY

[Bigglesof206]

Sorry Tuccy,

but that statement is pure BS.

Dave

[D3ATHBR1NG3R96]

After looking at the responses on this topic, I decided to test the mod myself. 

 

Played a game on North, fired two shells from my Fuso at a Kongou at 21km away while he was turning. Not only did I hit him, but BOTH SHELLS hit his citadel, taking away half of his health at the beginning of the game after playing literally a minute. I sat there with my mouth agape, and then ran into two enemy Clevelands so they could kill me. I have never been able to hit a ship while it was turning, especially at that range even after playing 200+ matches since Beta started. No offence, but no one can hit a shot like that in their first "few" matches.

 

After just two games, I must concur that this mod has to go. Permanently.

[HE_magnet]

So i havnt been here on the forums for a while to hear about this 'Aim assist' ....and now things seem a little more clear for me....

 

 

 

I am a BB guy through and through and i consider myself a decent player in this class, ...right from the start i seemed to have grasped the long range shooting to the point i felt like a natural,I love the Kongo and its my

'go to' ship over all the others..

 

I did not play for a week or so due to RL things so had a few games over the last few days...

 

 

First game in my Kongo i had half my health wiped out in a first salvo from a Fuso at full range....Second salvo finished me??? HMMM i thought...I must be really rusty?

 

Second game was the same (Kinda) so i tried the Fuso ...Same thing happened for a few games...

 

 

In all my games ive never seen that happen and was suprised (Im normally in the top4 on XP)....So i decided to head for my Japanese DD,s for some fun and kills...And did really well....After all they cant kill you if they

cant hit you ,Right?,So since then i stuck with DD,s as i seemed to do ok in them...

 

After deciding i love manouvreable ships i treated myself and bought the Simms package and lovin it (But thats another story)

 

 

So the point of this babbling is to point out that this mod IS a 'game changer'....Its changed the way i play this game and where i want to put my time,Money and effort!!

 

 

EDIT; The way it stands right now i cant see any more fun for me in the BB,s So i am sad to say..

 

Fuso.........Sold

 

Kongo.......Sold

 

.....Till things get better.

 

 

Aim assist mod=Gamechanger

 

 

[Kruzenstern]

I think another reason this has to go is how it will affect the community. Every time a good shot hits a target, there will be "Aimbot n00b" accusations floating around, and what little respect there is for good play in the first place will totally disintegrate. I already find myself subject to this, everytime I get hit by a BB at 15+km, I now assume the guy is using the mod. I don't believe that is a good thing... And if it is true, which I don't even really doubt, the amount of players actually using that mod is really disheartening. I can't even understand why someone would torpedo his own gaming experience that way, but humans rarely fail to deliver when it comes to being cheap bastids I guess...

[Ralatas19]

WoWP does give the aiming circle and guess what happens when u shoot at it ..YOU HIT THE AIRPLANE!

[Tsukotaku]

WoWP does give the aiming circle and guess what happens when u shoot at it ..YOU HIT THE AIRPLANE!

 

For the time #2398, this game is not WoWp.

[Figment]

 

I didn't suggest anything like that Figament, to make that more clear what I basically said is : "Don't shoot the messenger".

 

Also as I understood the staff posts, thats basically what they said (using way more diplomacy and marketing nuances), once they have collected the data and sorted what the real impact is (probably not on the individual player but on their plan) they will act upon it or, if the impact is irrelevant from their viewpoint, not act upon it.

 

 

And I am definitly worked up over it - just trying to stay cilivized ;)

 

 

I'm not shooting the messenger btw. Tuccy speaks of his own experiences.

 

Btw, with "you" I was talking in the general sense. "When one"/"when you". Not about you personally. Sorry if that phrasing confused you.

[Banelord300]

As all have already sais this mod is extremly toxic to the game and should be terminated as quikly as you can, otheriwse it could become warpack (imagine if they program bots to use the scipt) of WOWS.

[WhiskeyWolf]

I telling you people, there is business to be had here - Premium Aim Assist - that stuff will sell, just you wait.

[Ralatas19]

 

For the time #2398, this game is not WoWp.

 

yes its not WoWp. But leadcircle is leadcircle

[Yamato_Musashi]

 

Switching views etc. or a target dis- and then reappearing makes you lose track of your target long enough that you need to reevaluate the target's speed, direction and attitude. Regarding shots in depth, you need to aim higher or lower, which can be done far more precisely with that mod than you can from experience.

 

Can you land a shot on target? Yes. But not likely it's a citadel hit, with some luck you hit the front or back end, MAYBE the middle of the ship, with a few rounds, not all. In fact, a really proper hit is not even likely the second or third volley at 20km, because you have to estimate the target continuously and regularly without many things for good range comparison estimations.

 

Before this mod it was rare to score good hits at long distances and that was reserved for good players, now everyone can do it, point and click game as many have said.

Anyway after using the mod yesterday in my Amagi I can say for sure that my avarage damage just skyrocketed. It's not the point that shooting on the red dot is not always the best thing to do - the fact is this is providing important data which you can use to score far more hits then before. And of course player using it have huge advantage over the player who don't use it.

 

 

Can only confirm what many guys are saying here... Never used this mod and can still hit even at 25 or 27 km, but after A LOT OF GAMES (surely many HUNDREDS). Its incredible how often you get hit now. The citadel hits i get are multiplied even with tries to avoid. Can remember guys which didnt hit you at 10 km, with shooting always too short... Now noone is failing and instead if you dont shoot well you get sink even by "newbies". Often manouver got unecessary, things like decelerate before enemy shoots e.g. which before worked (obviously not always but for sure sometimes) now is useless and you only become a easier target... 

Especially for cruisers and destroyers the speed they have dont count anymore (before VERY often guys shooted behind them, because of their speed), now everyone can hit them.

 

Its obvious after a time you will lern how to shoot properly, but this need more then a few battles. But this is the fun of games, that you can get better then others due to skills...

[BlackSamBellamy]

Dear Tuccy!

 

I m far from being offensive against you or WG, I extremely appreciate your work and the work of your company, but:

 

In your opening statement there are some sentences I hope you don`t believe by yourself, as there are:

 

(...)
However, the aim prediction doesn't give you anything you don't get after few battles yourself.

(...)

Against faster, more maneuverable targets, aim prediction does not help much

(...)

 At mid to shorter ranges, with flat trajectory fire, this tool does not really help in any way

(...)

While aim prediction is a skill, it is not the most crucial one regarding the victory in a WoWS battle, and is also one of the easiest to learn. 

 

In all your above quotes you neglect one fact:

It is one thought less - and its a decisive and crucial one where the enemy might go if sailing straight - you need not to think anymore

and this gives you a decisive advantage over your enemy.

 

Instead of pointing this out you try to calm down and make us believe that its all not that bad as we believe.

 

Sry, it is that bad.

 

Best Regards,

BlackSamBellamy

[Skullcap]

My main concern at the moment besides the mod is what it can lead to, its simple script at best but its been chained with another mod aswell which allowed for this better aiming + birdseye view. It could lead to being developed into detecting where ships are in fog of war or tracking CVs from where the aircraft was spotted.

 

But the biggest factor to me is that falsified and skewed data is being provided in CBT to WG about gun statistics and performance of ships, its being artifically altered by a mod which isn't available for every user to use. Your getting data from users who use it and don't use it and this is providing a double set of data which doesn't correspond together properly.

 

Its not about WG just collecting feedback and data on its impact of the game, it has the longer lasting effect that its been providing information which is artifically changed from the vanilla client for quite a few weeks and this can influence nerfing and buffing development phases.

 

Quite frankly I'm not even sure why we have a CBT, from the start for the EU side the first wave was a farce with limited opening times of sign ups, alot of marketting went into getting alot of big name streamers to be given access and the hype train most certainly left the station. We still don't have US BBs or IJN carriers, fundemental bugs and gameplay issues are still in the the current build and the UI is half empty, very little progress has been made in the span of 3weeks and a mod which provides a unfair advantage to non users of said mod is now being sanctioned by WG.

 

Your asking us testers to test your content and give feedback but quite frankly we have very little real content to test, after tier 7 its impossible to maintain t he higher tier ships so they are not getting tested properly either and prem account/gold is now purchasable which I quite frankly think is damn right stupid at this  stage of development.

 

Alpha testers have mentioned the missing content I pointed out above was available in alpha but has been removed for beta, I ask why is this? Your pushing for open beta at FULL SPEED AHEAD and yet there is two missing tech trees and missing ships in tech trees aswell which are untested in a bigger player pool.

 

Honestly this has felt to me personally like a publicity beta more than a real closed beta and I cannot fathom WG's intent or plans at this current stage.

 

I was very happy and grateful to get into the beta, to provide real data to the developers so they could balance and adjust the game ready for open beta and release but right now with the sanctioning of the mod, very little, in my eyes, content and work being done build to build it puts a sour taste in my mouth as a tester. I have tested CBT WoT and WoWp and by this point I thought I was used to what happens with WG but I cannot understand the current situation with WoWs.

 

World of Warplanes ended up failing as a product, you made some changes in a later build which ruined the game for alot of people and it didn't kick off very well. I assume this is one reason why WoWs has been hyped up and alot of publicity has gone in to show you are serious about WoWs and you don't want it to fail. However currently in my own opinion your not far away from proceeding down the path of WoWp and creating another duff product which will hurt WG at the end of the day.

 

As a fan since WoWs was announced and also a tester, I am genuinely concerned about WoWs and the path it is currently going. The lashback on the aim assist mod alone should be making WG sit up and take action, the amount of people saying they won't buy your pre-orders or gold or even premium time when its available more wholesale should be a wake up call to WG aswell.

 

Bad word of mouth can make or break a game, many big titles have flopped because the developer made the wrong decision, just look at Aliens Colonial Marine as a good example. I do not wish to see WoWs flop and neither do the people passionately speaking both here and in the aiming bot exposed thread to.

 

Lets put it this way WG, if a solid decision isn't made by the end of next week big streamers and youtubes could start putting up "my thoughts" videos. A couple of thousand people can be influenced by streamers, what if Jingles were to post his thoughts on this, that is a couple of million people being exposed to WoWs current situation and I can gurantee it won't go well.

[Shepbur]

 

Aimbot is my only friend.

 

All my other friends deserted me when i was in a 11km gunnery duel against an enemy fletcher, but aimbot was there for me! Aimbot stuck with me through that hard patch, and with Aimbot's help i got through that difficult time! I'd like to say thanks to aimbot for everything its done for me and i hope it will remain to be my friend for years to come

 

[BlackSamBellamy]

Aimbot is my only friend.

 

All my other friends deserted me (...)

 

Sarcastic, but veeeeeery true 

 

Shepbur and all the other fair play guys in WoWs are my friends!

[Ulbricht]

Aimbot is my only friend.

 

All my other friends deserted me when i was in a 11km gunnery duel against an enemy fletcher, but aimbot was there for me! Aimbot stuck with me through that hard patch, and with Aimbot's help i got through that difficult time! I'd like to say thanks to aimbot for everything its done for me and i hope it will remain to be my friend for years to come

 

+1 to you. sir

I hope we get another staff statement on monday

[Petao_Sofronije]

Aimbot is my only friend.

 

All my other friends deserted me when i was in a 11km gunnery duel against an enemy fletcher, but aimbot was there for me! Aimbot stuck with me through that hard patch, and with Aimbot's help i got through that difficult time! I'd like to say thanks to aimbot for everything its done for me and i hope it will remain to be my friend for years to come

 

[asukamaru]

Ignoring the community on every level. Europeans are quite accustomed to it by now, and we could it see it coming since alpha. 

Considering that a mod giving an unfair advantage may be accepted as normal...  BS

You have two choices, put a aim help/aimbot whatever you name it, into the game for everyone, or, ban it, and its users.

There is no "consideration".

Most of the tester warn you about it, they may not be as hyped as you think, it could just be the result of a very simple logical process.

In the end please don't forget to tell marketing department that shallow game are rarely a success.