Game Modifications: Pros and Cons

[Mitchverr]

So after reading everything here, is the mod actually allowed? Because not only is it not condemned by an official but also said to not be that drastic, if anything that looks like an acceptance and allowance.

 

 and preparing both countermeasures to harmful mods

 Does this mod fall under this as to being considered harmful?

 

All i can say is i am saddened by this and i know for a fact that many people will refuse to play the game if the aim mod is allowed. I will still play unless it gets beyond insane because i love the game but alot of people i know who are not in the test have already said from reading about this mod that they will not play if it isnt banned.

 

I dont say this to threaten or whatever but as a simple statement of fact because i like this game, want it to do well and would like to get across the point that this threads existance damages the likelyhood of many coming to play the game because it is by proxy allowing the mod by not condemning it outright which gives everyone a bad taste.

[G01ngToxicCommand0]

 

So my first real battle with this mod (not co-op) in a cleveland... And result?

This is the best result i have had in the CBT so far.. Seriously, best of my 115 battles in CBT. Now go and tell me that the aim assist mod doesnt affect the game, or isnt a cheat...

 

No citadel hits and for what damage?

[DtXpwnz]

I am sorry, I am not going to play this game when you just removed 60% of required skill.

 

And my feedback.. if you really want to keep the lead prediction thingy in game, than put it into options menu, so it can be enabled/disabled. However, players using it should receive +30% dispersion "curse". Therefore it will serve to beginners to learn how to aim and later they can disable it.

[majogl]

 

No citadel hits and for what damage?

 

Its weird but no citadels in that match... 4/5 kills are destroyers which i took down with APs too. I remember broadsiding an aoba. I hit 10/12 hits over 10km for 11k damage without a single citadel hit...

[Magni56]

Just going to reiterate my opinion: Won't use it, won't spend a single cent on gold/prem ships/prem account etc. as long as it's allowed.

[GordonRamsay]

i personaly would like to see this mod banned ASAP but oh well.

in case you dont know what i am talking about, it is the aiming mod

 

all mods are banned by ToS.

 

---

 

Just going to reiterate my opinion: Won't use it, won't spend a single cent on gold/prem ships/prem account etc. as long as it's allowed.

 

no mods are allowed, read terms of service.

[mtm78]

 

all mods are banned by ToS.

 

---

 

 

no mods are allowed, read terms of service.

 

Can you quote the part which explicitly states that no modding is allowed, I think I missed it when I clicked accept. 

[Petao_Sofronije]

O wow. Just wow. Just as i learned how to shoot, this AID mod shows up. Had I known it will be available, I would never spent so much time and effort. If WG is going to be newiebe friendly this AID mod should only be in CO-OP battles, as a visual AID for new players to get the feel of what is to come. Once progressing to Random/Clan/Team battles this AID mod would have to be DISABLED.
So WG wants this in game? Fine. WG gets it. Do NOT blame people who warned from day 1 that having this AID mod enabled in random (PvP) battle is bad for:

• Game it self- it bottomline dumber ups the game, hell,even my 7y old son can play the game now ;
• Community : distrusting player's, total loss of any hint of teamplay, if you are not playing in a platoon or what ever you name it, negativity etc. etc.
• Sales : At the moment the economy model WG is going is giving them good results, however all of them are from OLD game name's ( yes, I just added WoWp to their success model). Base of players in WoT is big enuff to get away with mods, tundra, warpack etc. but for a new game, still in development, non strict rule on what is good and what is bad will kill the enthusiasm this game has.

 

You did ask for feedback, asked us to test your game, to see what can be added,removed, how game is "flowing". And when we the tester's, Alpha, Beta, Weekend and Supertester's said : " This AID-AIM mod is bad, it ruins up the game.", WG developers turned their backs to us.
I feel like I am in a bad marriage. What ever I do, and that is asked from me, I get silent treatment.  Please, I have that in real life. I do not need this here as well. But you can still change this. Ask us the tester's, send us a email, with simple question:
                                                                                  AID AIM mod in game
                                                                                           YES / NO

We are representative sample of the players to come. Of how this player base thinks. Does it not count for something?
TY

[Figment]

However, the aim prediction doesn't give you anything you don't get after few battles yourself.

 

That's probably one of the dumbest underestimation statements I've heard over the past years from a staff member. And I've heard some dumb things said by developers...

 

Switching views etc. or a target dis- and then reappearing makes you lose track of your target long enough that you need to reevaluate the target's speed, direction and attitude. Regarding shots in depth, you need to aim higher or lower, which can be done far more precisely with that mod than you can from experience.

 

Can you land a shot on target? Yes. But not likely it's a citadel hit, with some luck you hit the front or back end, MAYBE the middle of the ship, with a few rounds, not all. In fact, a really proper hit is not even likely the second or third volley at 20km, because you have to estimate the target continuously and regularly without many things for good range comparison estimations.

 

Someone using the mod doesn't need to do anything but look at the marker for a dead center shot on target and determine if the shot should deviate due to potential course changes. This means that regardless of circumstance, you can make a much faster and more accurate prediction of where the target is going to be, reducing your aim time, reducing your misses.

 

 

Compared to someone who has to guess everything and base everything on observation, this is a HUGE crutch to the point it removes this game far from fair competition.

 

 

I do not intend to play anymore until this mod is removed and guaranteed to not be used anymore. As is, more and more people are using it, ruining the experience for others. We might be testing right now, but I'm done testing when the outcome of the test is clear: this game has just been broken.

 

While aim prediction is a skill, it is not the most crucial one regarding the victory in a WoWS battle, and is also one of the easiest to learn. What is far more crucial and harder is how not to get locked in tunnel vision, how to dodge and where to go on the map. Whoever lacks these may land a few shots more accurately than he would be able to do otherwise, but will also die faster as he will be locked in following a marker Last but not least, RNG works the same for everyone so even with aim prediction and a target moving in a straight line, at max range chances are he will miss completely.

You clearly don't understand how RNG works.

 

RNG does not work the same for every shot, since not every shot is aimed directly on target.

 

If more of your shots are dead on target or close on target, then the RNG affecting those shots will not have an as likely negative effect as it would have on other shots that are aimed worse. So even though there is RNG, it would still cause more critical hits than a shot that is close on target to a probable near miss or a full miss, which you get MORE REGULARLY from regular aim.

 

What an aiming assist mod does, is ensure that the RNG affects mostly shots that due to the aim assist, are close or exactly on target.

 

Regular aim can still miss a target that moves in one straight line simply due to poor assesment or hasty aim. Aim assisted aim cannot miss that target in the same way because it is made to be more perfect than it should. Hence RNG will not affect both shots, since the base accuracy that the RNG affects is different.

 

The RNG only affects shots that are equally on target equally.

 

Seriously. How hard is it to comprehend that?

[Mitchverr]

 

all mods are banned by ToS.

 

---

 

 

no mods are allowed, read terms of service.

 

I assume you mean the terms and policies. Oh and you are incorrect there, mods are allowed according to this bit.

 

 No modifications shall be created which, according to Wargaming.net, bring undesirable changes to the gameplay of Wargaming.net Games.

 

The thing is, this has not been claimed to be undesirable changes by those in power.

[Garfield4]

Captains,

 <<< snip  text >>>

With regards

Your WoWs team

 

While its obvious the vocal majority of alpha- and beta testers want this particular aiming mod for battleships to be banned ASAP, you give us a typical marketing spin pros- and cons- text.  Making text is easier than making a decision which audience you want to please.

 

By doing nothing about it you clearly aim at the (money of) point& click arcade players.

Players who like a challenge in gaming without all kind of cheats WILL walk away from this game.

 

Sir Tuccy, the response most alpha/beta testers hoped for was: " we understand your concerns, and like in alpha testing we will take steps to disable the use of this mod."

The official answer you gave boils down to this: " we are very sorry for all efforts our alpha- and beta testers put in this game to acquire some "skills" in aiming while in a battleships, but we chose to give mod-users an advantage over non-mod/vanilla players.

 

Its going to be a silly point and click game this way.  The kind of game you can play on the bus on your way home after work/school. like the dozens of simple games you can find on smartphones or tablets.

 

To be constructive;  I see  2 possible solutions for WoWs:

1. two seperate servers:   EU1 WoWs for arcade players: all mods allowed, and EU2 for vanilla players: no mods or cheats allowed.

2. one (or more servers), and like someone already mentioned here, with 3 gamemodes: CO-OP,  MODERATED, VANILLA

[Ecotech]

 Ask us the tester's, send us a email, with simple question:

                                                                                  AID AIM mod in game
                                                                                           YES / NO

We are representative sample of the players to come. Of how this player base thinks. Does it not count for something?

 

Valid request.

 

@Tuccy: even if you're right and we're all wrong, truth is it doesn't matter. Player perception counts most for a game and the perception is that this aid is harmful. Petao has a good idea: there must be a database with all registered players. Filter it by presence / game experience, lets say ask all who have at least 50 battles. Ask the question, lets see what the feedback is.

 

And for a little devils advocate (please put on your tinfoil hats):

 

In any software that is adressed to a large number of users, the users themselves are tested as well, not only the software. Well dear fellow labrats, we are being tested now. Mods will be made, mods will try to exploit any weakness in game design to offer the maximum possible advantage to a player or a class of players. This will happen in the production game.

 

So, WG might as well test its userbase, analysing our reaction, in order to predict what will happen in the released game, as far as player behaviour / feedback is concerned.

[Figment]

To be constructive;  I see  2 possible solutions for WoWs:

1. two seperate servers like on WoT:   EU1 WoWs for arcade players: all mods allowed, and EU2 for vanilla players: no mods or cheats allowed.

2. one (or more servers), and like someone already mentioned here, with 3 gamemodes: CO-OP,  MODERATED, VANILLA

 

You just know that mods will enter vanilla. The attitude towards this matters more than if you actually prevent it.

 

If Wargaming gives the OK to these mods, virtually every player will (be forced to) download it (in order to be able to compete), because it's not considered a cheat. The community cannot object against it, because it's been made fair game. At most they will look emphatically in nostalgia at those who don't know where to get the mod or naively choose not to use it out of principle.

 

When Wargaming says "it's a cheat", the community will have an ethical treshold and will mock, witchhunt and use peer pressure to have players not use the mod and look down on all that do use the mod out of principle. It would be "not done" to use it.

 

 

Wargaming basically just handed the game over to cheats. Because if this is allowed... Hell, why would you still have to click the mouse button yourself? Why would botting be illegal?

 

"Botting is just like a player clicking a button and making estimations, right? It's just an input signal to the server, so how is it different?"

 

 

Come on Wargaming. 

 

 

 

[Ecotech]

 

 

If Wargaming gives the OK to these mods, virtually every player will (be forced to) download it (in order to be able to compete)

 

 

 

 

True. Just like in every arms-race, if one side has a weapon-system, the other side has to have it as well. It doesn't even matter if that particular piece of gear is worth the trouble or not - it just cannot afford NOT to have it.

[DBaron]

WG is a company, a business, not an electorate and although they definitly have a passion for gaming (otherwise they would produce accounting software or similiar) they are not doing just for the fun of it. They will analyze their data to see which business impact it will have and if it goes towards or against their business plan, because in the end, they want to make money. The number crunchers will feed the information to the department heads, those will prepare a report and the responsible people at the top will decide if thats a good (more cash) or bad way (less cash) to go.

 

But the thing with statistics is, they need time to unfold and a certain amount of data to make it a representative sample, you don't change your policies or business model on a whim, only on hard facts and data, and definitly not on outbursts or forum rage because "the majority" is always called upon but only WG really knows, how many are using what and what impact it really has, everything else is just a personal viewpoint.

 

As much as I am opposed to this mod beeing part of the game at all, and as much as I would love to see it go entirely, jumping on the WG staff tasked with forum moderation and calling them all sorts of things, is not the way to go.

 

My guess is that many posters, me included, have been waiting in anticipation of this game for what feels like ages ever since the announcement and first rumors, and having had the chance to actually play it was like opening presents at Xmas eve, that explains why now people are that passionate about it, feeling everything from frustration to betrayal, but Tucci is right in one thing, getting all emotional, confrontational even offensive, is not the best way to convince WG to change their view on the mod. Because you never give in to a mob.

[sunday]

 

(...)

 

You clearly don't understand how RNG works.

 

RNG does not work the same for every shot, since not every shot is aimed directly on target.

 

If more of your shots are dead on target or close on target, then the RNG affecting those shots will not have an as likely negative effect as it would have on other shots that are aimed worse. So even though there is RNG, it would still cause more critical hits than a shot that is close on target to a probable near miss or a full miss, which you get MORE REGULARLY from regular aim.

 

What an aiming assist mod does, is ensure that the RNG affects mostly shots that due to the aim assist, are close or exactly on target.

 

Regular aim can still miss a target that moves in one straight line simply due to poor assesment or hasty aim. Aim assisted aim cannot miss that target in the same way because it is made to be more perfect than it should. Hence RNG will not affect both shots, since the base accuracy that the RNG affects is different.

 

The RNG only affects shots that are equally on target equally.

 

Seriously. How hard is it to comprehend that?

 

I thought there were aspects of the game that were not finished, like some touches to the armor models, but I would like very much to have a look to the document that explains the technicalities of randomness in the treatment of penetrations in this game.

 

Could you provide links to the relevant documentation?

[indycar]

 

yes but we are just sayin this to help you because we dont want that many people to leave the game. most of the people in here really burn for this game and want to make it as good as posible and it would just be a shame if it sinks now because of a mod 

dont know if this is a good way to say it but oh well.

 

im a big fan of naval battles but if i wanted point and click ids just take my phone and play those kind of games

 

I really cant understand why some people defend it ...

 

Any aiming bot / indicators / wizards etc should be banned , its simple

 

AGREED

 

For me it doesn't even matter, if the mod is defined "helping you to practice aim" by you. It's clearly removing one important step, finding the right range.

Players, who have played the game alot, doesn't need this mod, since they know how to aim. Though this mod is properly not fully cheating, as you can aim anywhere else you want, but that isn't what is needed.

 

You guys, WG, are really not showing interest in the community. Maybe only when testing the game, but afterwards it dies. If you want proofs, then look at WoT EU.

You should gather the player feedback, and clearly the feedback about the aim assist mod is 90 % negative, and you should make your decision out from that.

A mod isn't a feature in the game, so banning it wont affect nothing. It'll only make all the users return to the old way of playing the game, and that's also how you guys wants the game to be played.

If a gaming company doesn't listen to its players, then it'll someday loose them. That day and happen already on release day.

 

no skill + no correct stats  = not properly balanced game (makes me wonder why we need testers...)

 

 

I don't need to tell whether the person who got a good shot on me uses the mod or not to know how bad of a thing it is.  I tried it out.  It's ridiculous.  We took out a two man platoon and whatever we fired on was crippled at best with the first volley.  We were two-teaming full health ships with one volley at maximum range.

 

I'm a passable shot, I don't normally need ranging volleys or so on to hit a ship at long range, but against fast ships and in terms of dead centre hits, which are far more effective, it's an absurdly helpful mod.  Critical hit counts went through the roof, even though we were engaging at longer ranges.  You can do better than most of the videos show, too, because they misunderstand what the mod does, precisely.

 

If it gives an unfair advantage to those using it, it should be banned whether it is pervasive or not.  How is that not obvious?

 

 

 

To the OP:  It does improve accuracy.  That is exactly what it does.  It just does not improve precision.

 

 

I very much support the moddability of the game, but you need to ban gameplay advantageous mods and put sanctions in place against them.  Having a sniffer script search for known ones and log a report on any account being found to use them would be a good starting point.

 

"change of how the game works" = not allowed just like the "laser" mod in wot. wy they made it illegal in wot and by the looks we can have it in wows

[Figment]

sunday, on 10 April 2015 - 11:03 PM, said:

 

I thought there were aspects of the game that were not finished, like some touches to the armor models, but I would like very much to have a look to the document that explains the technicalities of randomness in the treatment of penetrations in this game.

 

Could you provide links to the relevant documentation?

 

I know not of any such documentation, so can't provide it.

 

My argument is about Random Number Generator effect on a shot that is already more or less on target vs the Random Number Generator affecting a shot that might be on target, but could also be off or even way off depending on player skill and other factors like stress affecting judgment and "here goes nothing"-shots.

 

RNG won't affect either equally, because if you steer the shells of a shot that is in the neighbourhood of a target a bit off course, it is still more likely to hit than a shot that is quite a bit off in the first place.

 

 

The RNG of actually causing penetration and the amount of damage you will deal comes on top of the RNG of whether you will hit the target in the first place. I was talking about the latter. Of course, if you don't hit, you won't penetrate either... Which is why someone more likely hitting will more likely cause a critical or citadel hit too.

 

DBaron, on 10 April 2015 - 10:38 PM, said:

My guess is that many posters, me included, have been waiting in anticipation of this game for what feels like ages ever since the announcement and first rumors, and having had the chance to actually play it was like opening presents at Xmas eve, that explains why now people are that passionate about it, feeling everything from frustration to betrayal, but Tucci is right in one thing, getting all emotional, confrontational even offensive, is not the best way to convince WG to change their view on the mod. Because you never give in to a mob.

 

On the other hand, you should also not trivialise the sentiments of an angry mob on a whim and suggest "it's probably nothing to get worked up over".

 

The prudent thing to say would have been "we're looking into it and if it proves to be a problem, we'll handle it".

 

The reason we're extra vigilant right now is because the answer was "I'm sure there's no problem, but we'll wait and see". There is significant bias in that sentence towards trivialisation.

 

 

Typically, when cheats pop up, you get only a few months before population leaves in droves and start spreading bad mouth to mouth advertising and never coming back. If they're not even actively being pursued, or people have the feeling the fight against it is only half-hearted or defeatism rules, then you've lost your audience. If you give people the feeling you're on top of it and do what you can when it's needed (even if you might end up not winning), they'll at least respect you and give you some time.

 

[DBaron]

 

On the other hand, you should also not trivialise the sentiments of an angry mob on a whim and suggest "it's probably nothing to get worked up over".

 

The prudent thing to say would have been "we're looking into it and if it proves to be a problem, we'll handle it".

 

The reason we're extra vigilant right now is because the answer was "I'm sure there's no problem, but we'll wait and see". There is significant bias in that sentence towards trivialisation.

 

 

Typically, when cheats pop up, you get only a few months before population leaves in droves and start spreading bad mouth to mouth advertising and never coming back. If they're not even actively being pursued, or people have the feeling the fight against it is only half-hearted or defeatism rules, then you've lost your audience. If you give people the feeling you're on top of it and do what you can when it's needed (even if you might end up not winning), they'll at least respect you and give you some time.

 

I didn't suggest anything like that Figament, to make that more clear what I basically said is : "Don't shoot the messenger".

 

Also as I understood the staff posts, thats basically what they said (using way more diplomacy and marketing nuances), once they have collected the data and sorted what the real impact is (probably not on the individual player but on their plan) they will act upon it or, if the impact is irrelevant from their viewpoint, not act upon it.

 

 

And I am definitly worked up over it - just trying to stay cilivized ;)

[Mitchverr]

 

I didn't suggest anything like that Figament, to make that more clear what I basically said is : "Don't shoot the messenger".

 

Also as I understood the staff posts, thats basically what they said (using way more diplomacy and marketing nuances), once they have collected the data and sorted what the real impact is (probably not on the individual player but on their plan) they will act upon it or, if the impact is irrelevant from their viewpoint, not act upon it.

 

 

And I am definitly worked up over it - just trying to stay cilivized ;)

 

If they dont act, it will likely cripple the game in terms of the wallet because i suspect many wont play, meaning they wont buy things, i was considering heavily buying a couple ships, but i will not do so right now till a full answer is given on the subject of this as it concerns me as a customer.

 

Fake or real "help", damage is done now by this mod.

[sunday]

 

I know not of any such documentation, so can't provide it.

 

My argument is about Random Number Generator effect on a shot that is already more or less on target vs the Random Number Generator affecting a shot that might be on target, but could also be off or even way off depending on player skill and other factors like stress affecting judgment and "here goes nothing"-shots.

 

RNG won't affect either equally, because if you steer the shells of a shot that is in the neighbourhood of a target a bit off course, it is still more likely to hit than a shot that is quite a bit off in the first place.

 

 

The RNG of actually causing penetration and the amount of damage you will deal comes on top of the RNG of whether you will hit the target in the first place. I was talking about the latter. Of course, if you don't hit, you won't penetrate either... Which is why someone more likely hitting will more likely cause a critical or citadel hit too.

 

Are you familiar with basic probability theory? If not, see this. Of course that if there are more hits on the hull of a ship, then there will be more citadel penetrations - in the long run, of course. It is just common sense. One could say, even that RNG is applied several times, and the same number of times, to each shot. However, shots that, once the first pass of RNG applied are going into the water are not going to do any damage, so the result of the calculation could be known at the moment they hit water, so no need of generate additional random numbers; shots that hit the ship (after applying the previous pass of RNG) but do not penetrate the armor (after applying a new pass of RNG)  are not going to do any damage, etc.

 

I mean, the actual implementation could cut some corners and do not strictly apply RNG to every shot, as the product of 0 by something finite will be 0 always, but mathematically is just the same.

 

Now, I think you will understand that I think you may want to recant one accusation you previously did.

[Resli]

I played a match in my Kongo yesterday and right at the start a Nagato blow my first front turret up (perma) with just one shot, not a full salvo. OK that happens a few times. Continue with 3 turrets...  few minutes later I engaged a fight with him at closer range and then he shot ALL OF MY TURRETS to a useless wreck. I killed him anyway with my secondarys LOL, but PLS wargaming do something with that disgusting unfair mod and the users of that!!

[Magni56]

I played a match in my Kongo yesterday and right at the start a Nagato blow my first front turret up (perma) with just one shot, not a full salvo. OK that happens a few times. Continue with 3 turrets...  few minutes later I engaged a fight with him at closer range and then he shot ALL OF MY TURRETS to a useless wreck. I killed him anyway with my secondarys LOL, but PLS wargaming do something with that disgusting unfair mod and the users of that!!

 

Not the mod. It gives an aimpoint for your central citadel hitbox, not your turrets. His first hit was likely a lucky ranging shot and later at close range, he either aimed too high or was deliberately going for your turrets.

[Tugnut]

First load of cbt players server hit 5 to 6k players... by not even a week had gone down to 2 to 3k... then 2nd wave saw the same sort of numbers and also its being topped up by give aways.   But seems to level at 2 to 3k.   So is this mod WG way of trying to keep players playing due to the fact they dont want to learn how to play but just want a point a shoot game!   Imho this if left unchecked and legal, It will kill the game.    My first thought's of the game was first looks awesome 2nd wow you need to use your brain to get good at this shooting.  And loved it even more for that reason. But now even been in games that players are bragging about using the "aimbot" and they are just racking up the kills. It takes all the quess work out

 

[Ethlarion]

My only hope is that since this is a company and they want to make profit they will discuss the fact that 90% of the testers don't want aim bots / etc and a lot of them hold their preorders  and even thinking to quit this game before it even starts .

 

Listen to the testers WG !!