German BB AP Bombs Ruins the game

[____FALKEN____]

I would like comments and some answers from wargaming WHY they allow a german Battleship to be more or less insta DELETED when they are facing A carrier with ap bombs.

For Example i know that my game is over if i go in to game with for say Tirpitz..And the enemy has a Middway..2-3 minutes in to the game of trying to stay away from all enemy ,,if the middway see me in the map...ur done...bye bye tirpitz...and u can do NOTHING.......Wargaming..how on earth can u allow this  with all ur claim of balancing??  Best Regards ____FALKEN____

[ColonelPete]

Funny thing, had a couple of such games and never had that feeling...

 

 

[pra3y]

Doesn't really happen to me since i make myself a difficult target. But I guess its beyond alot of people to do that and blame it on balancing

[invicta2012]

AP bombs were supposed to be a counter to ships with high AA rating, so that you'd do some decent damage even if your squads were thinned out along the way. It doesn't work. Unfortunately what it actually does is allow CVs to one-shot certain vessels, regardless of the skill of the defending player. It's not as if you were an idiot and sailed a cruiser broadside to the enemy, you just got spotted and targeted. 

 

CVs remain the province of the lazy and cynical player. All they have to do is to know the AA ratings of the opposition ships, wait until the appropriate one is spotted, and then attack that. Low Tier Battleships and Destroyers are a favourite. Attacking a low-AA rated ship gives you all the time in the world to swan about and pick your drop point, even if they're dodging, with little risk to your planes. In the midst of that meta someone at WG thought it was a good idea to give carriers Dev Strike possible weapons. Well done lads. Roll on the CV re-work. 

[TOXIC_DD_MAIN]

Attention : repost

 

I would like comments and some answers from wargaming WHY they allow a german Battleship to be  insta DELETE other cruisers with a single AP Salvo. 

For Example i know that my game is over if i go in to game with for say mogami..And the enemy has a kurfürst..2-3 minutes in to the game of trying to stay away from all enemy ,,if the Kurfürst see me in the map...ur done...bye bye migami...and u can do NOTHING.......Wargaming..how on earth can u allow this  with all ur claim of balancing??  Best Regards ____FALKEN____

[ColonelPete]

15 minutes ago, invicta2012 said:

AP bombs were supposed to be a counter to ships with high AA rating, so that you'd do some decent damage even if your squads were thinned out along the way. It doesn't work. Unfortunately what it actually does is allow CVs to one-shot certain vessels, regardless of the skill of the defending player. It's not as if you were an idiot and sailed a cruiser broadside to the enemy, you just got spotted and targeted. 

 

CVs remain the province of the lazy and cynical player. All they have to do is to know the AA ratings of the opposition ships, wait until the appropriate one is spotted, and then attack that. Low Tier Battleships and Destroyers are a favourite. Attacking a low-AA rated ship gives you all the time in the world to swan about and pick your drop point, even if they're dodging, with little risk to your planes. In the midst of that meta someone at WG thought it was a good idea to give carriers Dev Strike possible weapons. Well done lads. Roll on the CV re-work. 

• DD do not need to worry about AP bombs
• cross dropping a DD with TB requires some skill
• some DD pose the risk of having Def AA

[invicta2012]

3 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

• DD do not need to worry about AP bombs
• cross dropping a DD with TB requires some skill
• some DD pose the risk of having Def AA

They do with Graf Zeppelin - am I right in thinking the arming time on the fuse is shorter? And it's so much fun being a Dunkerque player when an Enterprise hoves into view. You might as well wave a white flag.

 

The overall problem is the combination of Gimmicks and MM. WG keep giving Tier VII and VIII gimmicks intended to help them punch upwards against IX and X, forgetting that they can also see Tier V and VI, against which they are hopelessly OP.

[AgarwaenME]

45 minutes ago, invicta2012 said:

CVs remain the province of the lazy and cynical player

 

Such raw lazy cynical biased generalizations. 

[Migantium_Mashum]

 

1 hour ago, ____FALKEN____ said:

I would like comments and some answers from wargaming WHY they allow a german Battleship to be more or less insta DELETED when they are facing A carrier with ap bombs.

For Example i know that my game is over if i go in to game with for say Tirpitz..And the enemy has a Middway..2-3 minutes in to the game of trying to stay away from all enemy ,,if the middway see me in the map...ur done...bye bye tirpitz...and u can do NOTHING.......Wargaming..how on earth can u allow this  with all ur claim of balancing??  Best Regards ____FALKEN____

When I play Tirpitz and there are Carriers in play I try to stay close to other AA ships. Do you?

[TBNRtom]

AP bombs do not ruin THE game, it ruins A game from time to time. There barely are any CV's around so please just start a new game and tadaaa no CV.

[HaachamaShipping]

45 minutes ago, invicta2012 said:

They do with Graf Zeppelin - am I right in thinking the arming time on the fuse is shorter? And it's so much fun being a Dunkerque player when an Enterprise hoves into view. You might as well wave a white flag.

 

The overall problem is the combination of Gimmicks and MM. WG keep giving Tier VII and VIII gimmicks intended to help them punch upwards against IX and X, forgetting that they can also see Tier V and VI, against which they are hopelessly OP.

Not short enough to not just overpen DDs. It's why I laugh everytime I see a GZ with AP bombs and deep water torps, given it basically has no means to deal with DD except secondary gunning it down. Fuse being shorter allows to pretty much devastate any cruiser or BB in the MM spread though. But such is an issue with GZ, not a general carrier problem. Saying CVs are for the lazy because you only need to know some AA values and have all the time in the world to set up a drop is simply not true. For one, unless you are in T4, dropping some ship with no AA, sooner or later, your planes will drop out of the sky. Secondly, if you take your sweet time, you are wasting it when your plane turnover time already is higher than any reload. If you need a minute to drop a target that's a valuable minute lost and adds up fast to diminish your impact on the game. Third, setting up a manual drop is harder than shooting your main battery while avoiding taking massive damage through angling or dodging and knowing AA values is certainly harder than knowing main gun calibers and overmatch. Lastly, autodropping is hilariously ineffective in any other carrier, if the target has even just any idea of what they are doing. Even at T4, where few have good AA, most ships can outturn a drop and Hosho cross torp is the only viable way of getting any good damage in. Try autodropping in a Hakuryu or Midway and goodness...

 

Spoiler

Yesterday, T10 autodropping my Kii for 5 minutes. You'd think after eating two cits, they'd put in more effort. Also, if a T10 BB does only 30k damage in 5 minutes, well, that certainly is one terrible BB player. Also, this is just AA range mod and AFT, no BFT or Manual AA.

 

I recommend staying near friendly AA, if your AA is crap. It does wonders to your survivability against planes.

[invicta2012]

Top Tier examples aren't relevant, really. It's a separate game. If the carrier can see Tier VI then the player will have numerous badly AA equipped BBs in the MM and of course they're going to attack Normandie over Queen Elizabeth, because you can swing your planes around the French ship all day without taking any great losses. Is it reasonable for a battleship which can barely repel a Bogue to have to see Enterprise and GZ? Of course not, it's cruddy balancing. Cruisers can't support BBs with AA cover any more, btw -  they get spotted and focus fired, every time, and so playing these battleships in a CV game becomes a tiresome experience of being constantly focused by an enemy you can do little about. 

[HaachamaShipping]

3 minutes ago, invicta2012 said:

Top Tier examples aren't relevant, really. It's a separate game. If the carrier can see Tier VI then the player will have numerous badly AA equipped BBs in the MM and of course they're going to attack Normandie over Queen Elizabeth, because you can swing your planes around the French ship all day without taking any great losses. Is it reasonable for a battleship which can barely repel a Bogue to have to see Enterprise and GZ? Of course not, it's cruddy balancing. Cruisers can't support BBs with AA cover any more, btw -  they get spotted and focus fired, every time, and so playing these battleships in a CV game becomes a tiresome experience of being constantly focused by an enemy you can do little about. 

What's your Normandie going to do against a competent Bismarck? Except die. Unsupported, this Normandie is not even going to win a duel with a T8 DD  (with GZs DD equivalent Asashio being native to this tier) or a T8 Hipper. Why would it hold up against a T8 CV without support? Honestly, as a T6 BB in a T8 CV game, if you are that far up that you have no friendly AA cover from allied CAs or BB, you already messed up your positioning.

[invicta2012]

21 minutes ago, Riselotte said:

What's your Normandie going to do against a competent Bismarck?

It'll do just fine. I have no problems taking Tier VI BBs up against Tier VIII. I have no problems with Tier VI cruisers against a Bismarck (I sank one in a Huang He, once, which really annoyed him). You always have a counter, a method to play. You can use speed, manouevre, positioning, smoke, concealment, none of which works against a CV that knows where you are. That's why everyone hates CVs. 

 

22 minutes ago, Riselotte said:

Honestly, as a T6 BB in a T8 CV game, if you are that far up that you have no friendly AA cover from allied CAs or BB, you already messed up your positioning

How often do you see players offer AA cover? I have never been offered it. I have done it, personally ( A highly amusing game when our CV capped under my AA cover) and I know it can be powerful, but most people just don't. They're more concerned about hiding their Clevelands and Pensas behind rocks and pew pew pew-ing for fire damage rather than playing as support, and I don't really blame them.

[HaachamaShipping]

3 minutes ago, invicta2012 said:

It'll do just fine. I have no problems taking Tier VI BBs up against Tier VIII. I have no problems with Tier VI cruisers against a Bismarck (I sank one in a Huang He, once, which really annoyed him). You always have a counter, a method to play. You can use speed, manouevre, positioning, smoke, concealment, none of which works against a CV that knows where you are. That's why everyone hates CVs. 

I said competent. You can position all you want, as you cannot one-shot delete a Bismarck from an ambush, after your first salvo he knows where you are and basically just has to go bow in and ither overpen you till you are dead or wait until the secondaries fried you. 340 mm guns don't do much against bow-in Bismarck. Similarly, a competent Hipper would only get superstructure overpens angled and either kite you down from range or go for the torp ambush. DD does not even have to get spotted. If we assume some utter moron that allows you to kill them, then we can assume autodropping T8 CV, in which case, it's not too hard avoiding getting killed by those, even in a Normandie.

 

Frankly, the issue here is some hefty cognitive bias. People go on about how they counter all the other ships, because enemies are often stupid enough and you can abuse that practically every match with then enemy right in front of you, yet for CVs, only two kinds exist, the kind that is so useless you'll never get really affected by them and consequently they are barely noticed and the ones good enough to punish every mistake and delete your overextented ship in a single strike. And that's when people start to complain about "no counterplay", though they should have counterplayed by never being in that position far away from AA support and if they once in a while run into a BB 2 tiers higher that knows what they are doing, they have no real options to deal with it alone either. But such encounters are far rarer compared to the overall number of encounters with potatoes.

 

Heck, Normandie is not even going to win a 1v1 against a competent Gneisenau.

[El2aZeR]

2 hours ago, invicta2012 said:

They do with Graf Zeppelin

 

They don't. Armor isn't enough to arm the fuse in the first place unless possibly hitting a turret on a Khaba afaik.

Then again I've forgotten what the fuse arming threshold for the GZ AP bombs was but I doubt it was lower than 30mm.

 

As for the reason why AP bombs exist, to  over cruisers even harder I guess. No one asked for this, skilled CV players opposed their introduction at least in their current iteration, so ofc WG thought "Da, is fine now xaxaxaxaxa" and put them into the game.

[invicta2012]

18 minutes ago, Riselotte said:

I said competent. You can position all you want, as you cannot one-shot delete a Bismarck from an ambush, after your first salvo he knows where you are and basically just has to go bow in and ither overpen you till you are dead or wait until the secondaries fried you. 340 mm guns don't do much against bow-in Bismarck

1 v 1, sure. But why would I be taking on a Bismarck 1 v 1? Generally it's a rope-a-dope, and there is nothing thicker than a high-tier BB player who thinks he's got an easy kill. Lol my secondaries will kill you, oh, is that a Destroyer? Oops.

 

18 minutes ago, Riselotte said:

Frankly, the issue here is some hefty cognitive bias. People go on about how they counter all the other ships, because enemies are often stupid enough

Players make mistakes and that can be exploited. It's good tactics to encourage them to do that. For most ships, all it gives is a window of opportunity to do some damage, or survive. It's a good balancing mechanism for a mixed Tier game.

 

The problem is that CVs are playing a completely different game to everyone else, it's quite chess-like, and while it would be a nice game by itself it's not the one everyone else is involved in. That's why it's a relief to load a game and see no CVs, and why it'll be nice if the coming re-work puts them in the same gameplay world as everyone else.

 

10 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

They don't. Armor isn't enough to arm the fuse in the first place unless possibly hitting a turret on a Khaba afaik.

Then again I've forgotten what the fuse arming threshold for the GZ AP bombs was but I doubt it was lower than 30mm.

Fair enough. I just have a distinct memory of spotting a GZ in my Fubuki and getting deleted from full health in one bomber run. Doesn't happen often, if it was conventional bombs then that's still annoying!

[AgarwaenME]

Anyone find the logic of "BBs have received so many buffs that the ships that were supposed to keep us safe from XYZ can't stay anywhere close to us anymore, so now we need to nerf the ships that now can hurt us because of the unindented consequences of nerfing ships that could hurt us!!", just ever a bit facepalm worthy?

[Mangrey]

2 minutes ago, invicta2012 said:

The problem is that CVs are playing a completely different game to everyone else, it's quite chess-like, and while it would be a nice game by itself it's not the one everyone else is involved in. That's why it's a relief to load a game and see no CVs, and why it'll be nice if the coming re-work puts them in the same gameplay world as everyone else.

So you would like CVs to get the same amount of RNG as the rest of the ships ?.... of so IM out 

I HATE HATE HATE RNG I like skill tho BUT REALLY REALLY HATE RNG 

thats why i play the CVs there is less RNG 

 

mang

[Mangrey]

3 minutes ago, invicta2012 said:

Fair enough. I just have a distinct memory of spotting a GZ in my Fubuki and getting deleted from full health in one bomber run. Doesn't happen often, if it was conventional bombs then that's still annoying!

Battleships dose the same shite all day long .... what the diffiance ?

 

 

mang

[HaachamaShipping]

2 minutes ago, invicta2012 said:

1 v 1, sure. But why would I be taking on a Bismarck 1 v 1? Generally it's a rope-a-dope, and there is nothing thicker than a high-tier BB player who thinks he's got an easy kill. Lol my secondaries will kill you, oh, is that a Destroyer? Oops.

And if you don't try to solo a Bismarck, why are you not sticking to your AA heavy ships against the CV? Same logic. Also, given Bismarck has hydro, it isn't exactly hard to avoid getting torpedoed. But as said, we have the double standard here of BBs always being dumb and CVs always being unicum.

6 minutes ago, invicta2012 said:

Players make mistakes and that can be exploited. It's good tactics to encourage them to do that. For most ships, all it gives is a window of opportunity to do some damage, or survive. It's a good balancing mechanism for a mixed Tier game.

 

The problem is that CVs are playing a completely different game to everyone else, it's quite chess-like, and while it would be a nice game by itself it's not the one everyone else is involved in. That's why it's a relief to load a game and see no CVs, and why it'll be nice if the coming re-work puts them in the same gameplay world as everyone else.

CVs don't play a different game, just because they have a different perspective. Otherwise I'd play a different game as soon as I launch a spotter plane. CVs just have a different means of dealing damage, but by that logic torp boats play a different game from gunboats and we aren't going to argue about how torp boats are awful.

 

Also, CVs can make mistakes too that can be exploited. Obviously, the good ones make less than the terrible ones, but that's true for all players of all classes.

[ColonelPete]

3 hours ago, invicta2012 said:

They do with Graf Zeppelin - am I right in thinking the arming time on the fuse is shorter? And it's so much fun being a Dunkerque player when an Enterprise hoves into view. You might as well wave a white flag.

 

The overall problem is the combination of Gimmicks and MM. WG keep giving Tier VII and VIII gimmicks intended to help them punch upwards against IX and X, forgetting that they can also see Tier V and VI, against which they are hopelessly OP.

The AP bombs should not arm on most DD (no idea about Khaba).

[HaachamaShipping]

2 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

The AP bombs should not arm on most DD (no idea about Khaba).

Khaba has 50 mm side plate, not deck plate. It shouldn't arm on that.

[____FALKEN____]

My point is   im not doing anny mistake in the game like eating a ton of shima torps  or showing broad side at the wrong time..sailing alone in to a ton of fire crusiers  and so on and so on.

 

There is no counter for me in a tirpitz for example  when ap carrier ar going for me,,,and yeas im trying to stay with AA ships as mush as possible,,obvius.

 

Its the only aspect of the game i feal..there is nothing i can do to counter it...and no i dont whant to hold my fire at the edge of the map,i whant to try and play the objective and win as i do all other games.

[pra3y]

1 hour ago, ____FALKEN____ said:

My point is   im not doing anny mistake in the game like eating a ton of shima torps  or showing broad side at the wrong time..sailing alone in to a ton of fire crusiers  and so on and so on.

 

There is no counter for me in a tirpitz for example  when ap carrier ar going for me,,,and yeas im trying to stay with AA ships as mush as possible,,obvius.

 

Its the only aspect of the game i feal..there is nothing i can do to counter it...and no i dont whant to hold my fire at the edge of the map,i whant to try and play the objective and win as i do all other games.

 

Do you know by any chance that making a hard turn as the AP bombers come in can cause the bombs to miss? Well at least for USN AP bombs. Those arent guided bombs you know.