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Radar Discussion Megathread

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A bit of the sidenote, but if you WG buffed radars range and duration, maybe it is time to buff torpedo range on some DDs? At least to 12km for all TX and 10 for all T8s?

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I wont take another dd unless I have to. I am so tired of not being able to do anything at all and lose lose lose all the way around. I lose the time wasted, I lose all the camos I used,i lose all the signal flags I use and then the team I have usually has some smart [edited]remark about it...…. so until the radar thing is fixed I wont use a dd

 

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Why do we got this in game and would it be better if it's gone? Is this to be an anti-camping mechanic? Isn't the whole reason that there are so many islands, so that you got something to hide behind? And those that camp behind islands for the whole game will fail anyways. At some point you just can't make the game more fool-proof and have to rely on other things to punnish people for not playing the game the right way. But this only if that is THE reason for this mechanic. 

 

I just find this a annoying mechanic promoting magic to the game. I am glad though that planes already adopted LoS mechanics and lost their mountain x-ray vision. I'd rather have the other mechanics like Radar, Hydro and assured detection to lose the Mountain-o-vision too. Radar and Hydro are strong enough for seeing everything that isn't behind an island and if I camp behind an island and a DD decides to sneak up to me and torp me from point blank range, I deserve it. 

 

That said, I am interested if there were reasons why these mechanics are in the game.

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28 minutes ago, FukushuNL said:

would it be better if it's gone?

No

 

28 minutes ago, FukushuNL said:

Is this to be an anti-camping mechanic?

Partially, but not entirely. If you radar something with island between him & you - you can't shoot him anyway. You'll need other ships to do that.

And I'm pretty sure quite often the reaction to getting radared is "ducking" behind an island as you can't shoot through them. Just being spotted isn't enough

 

31 minutes ago, FukushuNL said:

I just find this a annoying mechanic promoting magic to the game.

Because insta-repairing fires, floods and anything broken is super realistic. Or most other stuff we have in the game. It's a game for a reason

 

32 minutes ago, FukushuNL said:

I'd rather have the other mechanics like Radar, Hydro and assured detection to lose the Mountain-o-vision too.

I too would love a more realistic radar - range multiple times longer (unless I'm very much mistaken radars horizon (max view range) should be further than your normal view range / horizon), no maximum duration, a simple toggle on / off ability with no cooldowns between uses, no limited uses and so on. Would be great!

 

33 minutes ago, FukushuNL said:

Radar and Hydro are strong enough for seeing everything that isn't behind an island

WG tested it, doesn't work

 

Anyway, there is a separate radar whine thread pinned at the top, go use that :cap_old:

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Rather than moaning about radar take the time to learn the radar and hydro capabilities of your enemy.

 

Know your enemy, plan accordingly, don't be the victim...or whine, do nothing, die.

 

Your choice.

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I'm sorry, but you both miss the point and aren't answering my question, only giving cheeky non-answers to ridicule my post. I'm not bitching about radar, or hydro  for that matter. I am adressing the ability to see through walls, and specifically within the assured detection range. Which neither of you gave an answer to what the reason is of being able to look through walls.

 

6 hours ago, wilkatis_LV said:

No

 

Partially, but not entirely. If you radar something with island between him & you - you can't shoot him anyway. You'll need other ships to do that.

And I'm pretty sure quite often the reaction to getting radared is "ducking" behind an island as you can't shoot through them. Just being spotted isn't enough

 

Because insta-repairing fires, floods and anything broken is super realistic. Or most other stuff we have in the game. It's a game for a reason

 

I too would love a more realistic radar - range multiple times longer (unless I'm very much mistaken radars horizon (max view range) should be further than your normal view range / horizon), no maximum duration, a simple toggle on / off ability with no cooldowns between uses, no limited uses and so on. Would be great!

 

WG tested it, doesn't work

 

Anyway, there is a separate radar whine thread pinned at the top, go use that :cap_old:

 

No is not an explanation.

 

Seeing but not able to shoot the enemy OR not being able to see so you don't know where the enemy is, those are two totally different situations.

 

Being able to douze fires with water installations and using bulkheads to instantly stop floodings from spreading, yes, that is quite realistic. And it being a game is a non-reason. You can literally give that for anything, so that is bs.

 

And there you go with ridiculous stuff that would break the whole game. 

 

When did WG test this? Afaik, radar has always shown everything behind cover. 

 

6 hours ago, Migantium_Mashum said:

Rather than moaning about radar take the time to learn the radar and hydro capabilities of your enemy.

 

Know your enemy, plan accordingly, don't be the victim...or whine, do nothing, die.

 

Your choice.

Neh, I'm ok with radar, hydro and assured detection. Just not with being able to see through mountains, specifically with the last kind of detection. I don't understand why the game needs being able to look through mountains. If you got a good reasoning for that implementation and why it's a good thing, I'm all ears. I don't need to get lectured on how to deal with radar. 

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The less information you have the less you can risk, especially in a squishy radar cruiser. Line-of-sight detection would lead to more campy games. The only semi-safe way to radar a cap would be a perfect DD smoke for the radar cruiser. Would you like to trust a random DD player?

Proxy-spotting is very rare. It allows for some tactical moves like rushing a smoked up DD who has no torps ready in a cruiser or BB, or counter-spotting a Z-52 that is hydroing you through an island. All these examples punish bad play, I see no problem with that.

 

What bothers you anyway? So far you only brought up magic ... in a game. (Others already pointed out DCP or how about 30+% hit rate for BBs? Reload booster? BB with speed boost? Magic heal? Unlimited planes? Magic AA aura? Magic heal and reload boost from Yamamoto?)

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7 hours ago, FukushuNL said:

When did WG test this? Afaik, radar has always shown everything behind cover. 

 

It didnt even pass their internal testing... that already says something.

Radar going through islands is not a big deal. Yesterday i had an Akatsuki sitting an entire Hydro from my Z-39 behind an Island. He didnt die (while he ofc did lose some HP). And still it was his own fault, by not checking line-up. Rushed straight into the cap and sat there. If it wouldnt have been for a Seattle, i would have rushed him ofc. So you could say, Radar saved him from dieing within the first 2-3 minutes of the game. I would have most likely died myself if i would have rushed him.

The day before that, i was radared atleast 4 times by a Kronshtadt (maybe i was radared by a Belfast aswell) while playing Gadjah, and a couple of times through island aswell. Still survived, because i kept my distance to the Kronshtadt at all times so he could radar, but i could hide or run off. 100x better (more fun) to fight against Radar ships than fighting against CVs (which was in the game aswell :cap_old:)

 

7 hours ago, FukushuNL said:

Neh, I'm ok with radar, hydro and assured detection. Just not with being able to see through mountains, specifically with the last kind of detection. I don't understand why the game needs being able to look through mountains. If you got a good reasoning for that implementation and why it's a good thing, I'm all ears. I don't need to get lectured on how to deal with radar.  

 

Because its also bad for DDs? So lets say, you go to a cap in your DD, and i know you are there when i play a radar cruiser, but im not spotted. Why would i pop my radar? I would never (cyclone being an exception) use radar when im not spotted anymore. Which btw, also removes the teamplay ability of radar, it would be totaly selfish to use.

But lets say, someone does pop radar, the DD doesnt get that info either. He might run around the island straight into a radar ship, which is worse than sitting it out behind the island.

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7 hours ago, FukushuNL said:

Which neither of you gave an answer to what the reason is of being able to look through walls.

Gameplay purposes. Exactly that simple.

 

As I said - make radar more realistic, sure. Add that LoS requirement, but don't forget everything else the radar had, just like I listed. You'd love that, wouldn't you?

 

Also forgot to add that practically every high tier ship, and probably most mid-tier ships should / did have radar. Just as a bonus.

 

7 hours ago, FukushuNL said:

Being able to douze fires with water installations and using bulkheads to instantly stop floodings from spreading, yes, that is quite realistic.

Is that a "tap a button and everything is magically fine" or is it a "work quicker, it's goining to s:etc_swear: really fast!!!!" situation IRL? I wonder...

 

7 hours ago, FukushuNL said:

And there you go with ridiculous stuff that would break the whole game. 

I assume you mean the radar changes? No, no, that's just more realistic - exactly like you are asking it to be!

 

7 hours ago, FukushuNL said:

When did WG test this? Afaik, radar has always shown everything behind cover. 

Did you know that they generally don't test stuff on live server? :fish_palm: CV rework is the 1st big exception I can think of. Everything goes through multiple layers of test servers before arriving to us or being cancelled.

And for when - fairly recently

 


 

Either way, this has been merged into the radar whine thread, so I can stop responding - there are plenty of others already doing that

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7 hours ago, wilkatis_LV said:

Gameplay purposes. Exactly that simple.

 

As I said - make radar more realistic, sure. Add that LoS requirement, but don't forget everything else the radar had, just like I listed. You'd love that, wouldn't you?

 

Also forgot to add that practically every high tier ship, and probably most mid-tier ships should / did have radar. Just as a bonus.

 

Is that a "tap a button and everything is magically fine" or is it a "work quicker, it's goining to s:etc_swear: really fast!!!!" situation IRL? I wonder...

 

I assume you mean the radar changes? No, no, that's just more realistic - exactly like you are asking it to be!

 

Did you know that they generally don't test stuff on live server? :fish_palm: CV rework is the 1st big exception I can think of. Everything goes through multiple layers of test servers before arriving to us or being cancelled.

And for when - fairly recently

 


 

Either way, this has been merged into the radar whine thread, so I can stop responding - there are plenty of others already doing that

So not answering a question and overexagerating/ridiculing a post is your way of replying. If you are gonna troll like that, yeah, please don't respond anymore xD

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The LoS mechanic was tested by WG but we never got to know more then that they didnt find it effective. I would still like to try it. Atleast on the PTS to see if it makes the meta less campy of more campy. Because no one knows. What we do know is that multiple CVs + radar makes for campy blob-meta that some of the People in this thread call "teamwork".

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2 hours ago, Systergummi said:

The LoS mechanic was tested by WG but we never got to know more then that they didnt find it effective. I would still like to try it. Atleast on the PTS to see if it makes the meta less campy of more campy. Because no one knows. What we do know is that multiple CVs + radar makes for campy blob-meta that some of the People in this thread call "teamwork".

That's what I think too. With the CVs being a regular sight on the battlefield and almost every cruiser having radar, in addition to a lot of hydro carrying ships, there is almost no way to hide anymore. With so much transparancy on the battlefield, using LoS might bring back a bit of stealth and tactics. I take it that when WG tried the LoS mechanic, it was in a time when radar and hydro were uncommon ship skills. Now, when cruisers and the random BB can chain-radar a wide area, things might tend to play out different when implementing LoS. 

 

It feels like cheating imo to see through walls and anticipate when ships will sail out from cover. Plus it promotes camping even more. For instance, in the current situation, if I am behind a rock and the enemy uses radar, I will keep camping behind a rock, because the enemy team know exactly where and when to shoot if I move. If LoS exists, the only way I know the enemy radar is in use is  either when I move out from cover into sight of a radar ship or if a teammate is in sight of a ship that uses radar and announces he does so. So I don't have reason to camp behind a rock in fear of radar spotting me and will move to a better position to help my team. In the latter situation the enemy team doesn't have a clear preemptive shot at you moving from behind cover and unless you good good communication with your PUG, most (if any) of your team don't know when the enemy radar ship has used their radar until they are caught by it in plain sight. Also the radar ship won't just use their radar nonchalantly just to check what's going on in a 10 km range around his/her ship, but has to be more careful using it for the radar to be at it's most effective. This in turn makes the use of radar a more skillbased button to use instead of this random "I want to see everything" button that reveals all. And that way having radar on most cruisers isn't that big of a deal. 

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1 hour ago, FukushuNL said:

Also the radar ship won't just use their radar nonchalantly just to check what's going on in a 10 km range around his/her ship, but has to be more careful using it for the radar to be at it's most effective. This in turn makes the use of radar a more skillbased button to use instead of this random "I want to see everything" button that reveals all. And that way having radar on most cruisers isn't that big of a deal.  

 

Have you been paying attention to random teammates popping radar at the most questionable times? Like, 1 minute into the game, lets use radar... why? Nobody knows.

If everybody would use radar at the perfect time, we would see MUCH more whining from DD players. Currently, most potatoes just randomly pop radar for no reason :Smile_sceptic: Even if the mechanics would change, it would still be the same for those guys.

And even if it would be LoS, there would still be radar ships which pop radar precisely due to them being spotted, like Minotaur f.e.

 

As i said before: Radar working through islands is good for DDs aswell because they can bait the radar from cover.

WG adding radar to most new ships (especially those retard proof BCs like Alaska) is another story. They survive longer, so it makes it easier for bad players. So naturally, it will feel like we see more and more radar, however, if that radar is used wisely is another story

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1 hour ago, FukushuNL said:

It feels like cheating imo to see through walls and anticipate when ships will sail out from cover.

The same can be said about hiding a 60000 ton battleship at 14 km. The visibility system is super arcady but it is what WG chose for this game. WoWS is still here and the player numbers are very stable over the years so they must have done something right.

It's in the game so it's not cheating, don't worry about it. (The same goes for the Radio Location skill which feels a lot more like cheating because it is an actual wall-hack.)

 

 

1 hour ago, FukushuNL said:

Plus it promotes camping even more. For instance, in the current situation, if I am behind a rock and the enemy uses radar, I will keep camping behind a rock, because the enemy team know exactly where and when to shoot if I move. If LoS exists, the only way I know the enemy radar is in use is  either when I move out from cover into sight of a radar ship or if a teammate is in sight of a ship that uses radar and announces he does so. So I don't have reason to camp behind a rock in fear of radar spotting me and will move to a better position to help my team. In the latter situation the enemy team doesn't have a clear preemptive shot at you moving from behind cover and unless you good good communication with your PUG, most (if any) of your team don't know when the enemy radar ship has used their radar until they are caught by it in plain sight. Also the radar ship won't just use their radar nonchalantly just to check what's going on in a 10 km range around his/her ship, but has to be more careful using it for the radar to be at it's most effective. This in turn makes the use of radar a more skillbased button to use instead of this random "I want to see everything" button that reveals all. And that way having radar on most cruisers isn't that big of a deal.

 

This quote and your results with radar cruisers show that you don't know much about radar cruisers and how to play them. You lack the expertise to predict what LoS radar would do to radar cruiser game play.

Btw, if you like to hear some tips I'll be happy to help.

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10 hours ago, DFens_666 said:

 

Have you been paying attention to random teammates popping radar at the most questionable times? Like, 1 minute into the game, lets use radar... why? Nobody knows.

If everybody would use radar at the perfect time, we would see MUCH more whining from DD players. Currently, most potatoes just randomly pop radar for no reason :Smile_sceptic: Even if the mechanics would change, it would still be the same for those guys.

 

You can't take in account the idiots that do that when balancing stuff. Those that do that are beside the point. That's not where you balance a mechanic on. That's like you replace the caps in domination to behind the spawn points of the teams because some people run to the back line. you don't take in account the stupidity of people. It's not like they are abusing the skill. So your point is void.

 

9 hours ago, Ze_Reckless said:

The same can be said about hiding a 60000 ton battleship at 14 km. The visibility system is super arcady but it is what WG chose for this game. WoWS is still here and the player numbers are very stable over the years so they must have done something right.

It's in the game so it's not cheating, don't worry about it. (The same goes for the Radio Location skill which feels a lot more like cheating because it is an actual wall-hack.)

 

 

 

This quote and your results with radar cruisers show that you don't know much about radar cruisers and how to play them. You lack the expertise to predict what LoS radar would do to radar cruiser game play.

Btw, if you like to hear some tips I'll be happy to help.

Your first point is a non-reason. Hiding a 60k ton ship at 14 km is balancing an individual ship. Other ships are visual at 18km. Radar is a core mechanic that works the same for everybody. Also, I'm not attacking the arcadiness of the game or the radar. And I'm not saying this radar mechanic breaks the game. Also the amount of radar has been low over the last couple of years, only spiking up since the american light cruiser inclusion. Plus I didn't say it's cheating, it feels like cheating. And I don't think we need radio location in the game either.

 

As for your second point: apart from the "I look at your stats, so I know exactly what kind of player you are" nonsense, I HATE using radar cruisers xD I am not going to [edited] about the kind of ship and then play a radar cruiser. That would be hypocritical. I am not buying Alaska on purpose, even though I would really want a Battlecruiser. I refuse to play my mino as a Radarship. I got no interest in advancing the American cruiser line anytime soon. So thanks but no thanks, I know how to play radar cruisers well enough, but I have no need of using them as I refuse to play them as intended. 

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5 hours ago, FukushuNL said:

So thanks but no thanks, I know how to play radar cruisers well enough, 

:Smile_smile:

 

LoS radar would introduce many problems without being beneficial for anyone, that sounds like a bad trade. With LoS radar cruisers would hope never to get into radar range which would make the class entirely pointless. And we are back at no one can spot DDs, plz nerf DDs OMG they are so OP!!!!!!!!!1111111

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16 hours ago, DFens_666 said:

Have you been paying attention to random teammates popping radar at the most questionable times? Like, 1 minute into the game, lets use radar... why? Nobody knows.

Or pop hydro after one minute while still in spawn ... Thanks to WG for the new automatic chat messages, good for a laugh now and then.

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6 hours ago, FukushuNL said:

So thanks but no thanks, I know how to play radar cruisers well enough, but I have no need of using them as I refuse to play them as intended. 

No you dont. Otherwise you would be able to better adjust your DD play to the current CV/radar meta instead of requesting the meta to be changed.

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And the ad hominem "arguments" return. Fun. :Smile_sceptic:

 

17 hours ago, Ze_Reckless said:

LoS radar would introduce many problems without being beneficial for anyone,

This is a plain lie. Please don't lie.

 

17 hours ago, Ze_Reckless said:

With LoS radar cruisers would hope never to get into radar range which would make the class entirely pointless.

They wouldn't want to get into radar range? I'm assuming you meant something like "...could never hope to get..."

 

Grammar issues aside, LoS radar would make it harder for radar cruisers, but not so hard as to make them pointless.

 

17 hours ago, Ze_Reckless said:

And we are back at no one can spot DDs, plz nerf DDs OMG they are so OP!!!!!!!!!1111111

So CVs are back to the old numbers again? With almost none of them in games? Also, radar cruisers aren't the only ones that can spot DDs, they've never been. Also also, I'm not sure how much of that was meant as an actual argument and how much was just a shot at whiners.

 

 

On 3/17/2019 at 7:57 PM, Systergummi said:

The LoS mechanic was tested by WG but we never got to know more then that they didnt find it effective. I would still like to try it. Atleast on the PTS to see if it makes the meta less campy of more campy. Because no one knows. What we do know is that multiple CVs + radar makes for campy blob-meta that some of the People in this thread call "teamwork".

Yeah. Letting players try it out probably wouldn't hurt. No one can really know for sure what the effect would be on general gameplay, only theorize. My theory is that the positives and negatives of the change would balance eachother out more than people here seem to predict.

 

Also, I wanna say that using "WG has tried it" as an argument means nothing to me. I think WG has proven time and time again that they have a lot to learn about balancing. And coding.

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3 hours ago, Runegrem said:

Grammar issues aside, LoS radar would make it harder for radar cruisers, but not so hard as to make them pointless.

No grammar issues. A radar cruiser in the open that is close enough to radar something is a dead cruiser. As soon as he is detected he can use his radar but that was his last action in this battle. So people would either stay in the back or stop playing radar cruisers a.k.a. they would be pointless. DDs and others on the receiving end wouldn't benefit from LoS radar. If you think this is a 'lie' (bit hilarious to say this about a prediction, we both can't know for sure what would happen) please tell me what you think. Or point me to a post # if you did already, 50 pages is a lot.

 

The CV rework is the real problem for DDs, radar is fine. Just look at the numbers of DDs played. They went down when the US CLs were introduced, later they came back to normal levels. After 8.0 they stay at a low level.

 

And no, that was no ad hominem. You need to have some understanding of a game mechanic to be able to discuss it in a meaningful way. Someone who has no clue how radar cruisers work (he said himself he doesn't like them so he doesn't play them properly) cannot predict what LoS radar would do to their play style.

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3 hours ago, Ze_Reckless said:

No grammar issues. A radar cruiser in the open that is close enough to radar something is a dead cruiser. As soon as he is detected he can use his radar but that was his last action in this battle. So people would either stay in the back or stop playing radar cruisers a.k.a. they would be pointless.

Oh, so you did mean that they won't want to get within radar range, fair enough. However, that's still wrong since there is play between staying way back and yoloing with your radar. Just as well as there is play between not capping at all and yoloing into the caps asap as a DD. Cruisers don't die as soon as anyone looks at them crossly. They're not super tough, but they aren't made out of papier-mâché either, except maybe for the British ones.

 

3 hours ago, Ze_Reckless said:

DDs and others on the receiving end wouldn't benefit from LoS radar. If you think this is a 'lie' (bit hilarious to say this about a prediction, we both can't know for sure what would happen) please tell me what you think. Or point me to a post # if you did already, 50 pages is a lot.

If an unspotted DD is on the other side of an island from a radar cruiser but with one or more enemy ships in LoS, then she'd benefit from not being radared through the island. That's a situation that happens now and I don't see any changes within the game at all that would stop them from happening. So there you have a DD that would benefit from LoS radar. Also, all, including your, predictions point towards this change leading to radar being used far less, which DDs also benefit from. So yes, saying that no one would benefit from the change is a lie since even you predict a scenario where DDs benefit. Of course, it might also be that you missed that implication, which makes it a mistake rather than a lie. Such things happen.

 

And like I said, I don't predict LoS radar to have a huge influence on the quality of play. Some things will get shifted around, like DDs can probably get a little more aggressive while cruisers get less so. But overall, it's not a big thing.

 

3 hours ago, Ze_Reckless said:

The CV rework is the real problem for DDs, radar is fine. Just look at the numbers of DDs played. They went down when the US CLs were introduced, later they came back to normal levels. After 8.0 they stay at a low level.

Radar isn't fine, it's meh. Not the biggest issue now, but not well balanced. No argument that there're issues with CVs though.

 

3 hours ago, Ze_Reckless said:

And no, that was no ad hominem. You need to have some understanding of a game mechanic to be able to discuss it in a meaningful way. Someone who has no clue how radar cruisers work (he said himself he doesn't like them so he doesn't play them properly) cannot predict what LoS radar would do to their play style.

If you're attacking the person rather than the argument, then it's an ad hominem. And don't judge somone's value in a discussion about a specific mechanic based on how well they play that particular class. Since if that's true, then no one who didn't play the CVs well had anything of value to add to the CV debate leading to the rework. That's clearly untrue since there were very few players who were actually good at the old CVs and a lot more players had valuable insight into the situation.

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4 hours ago, Runegrem said:

If an unspotted DD is on the other side of an island from a radar cruiser but with one or more enemy ships in LoS, then she'd benefit from not being radared through the island.

 

Just because of that, i like Radar as it is. Because it means, i can help my team with it. And this is not limited to DDs, you can radar everything else to help your team.

Quite frankly, the 15km RU BB radar with LoS would seem really retarded :Smile_teethhappy:

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@Runegrem

 

Far less radar would benefit the DD for a couple of seconds, then a horde of BB players would whine about OP DDs and we are back at square one.

I told you which problem I see for the class balance, i.e. radar cruisers would be pointless. You think a cruiser can survive when he is detected for a minute in the open near a cap? Republique, Yamato, Stalin, Alaska, Kronshtadt and others laugh right here. In the near future Kreml's dispersion below 13 km will be a lot of quick fun for the cruiser.

 

I don't see the benefit for the DD in your example. The cruiser can't shoot him. If the others are close enough to get meaningful hits on the DD he is severely out of position. In addition to this, with LoS the DD will never know if the cruiser used his radar. Nowadays you can bait a radar, sit it out at an island and then detect the cruiser and F3-key him into oblivion.

 

To be clear, I don't argue from the POV of a radar cruiser player, I play all surface ships. I can play around radar with my DDs, radar cruisers are dangerous but they aren't invincible. Because of their vulnerability they are rather easy to predict which makes them a good torpedo target. High tier DD play isn't easy and I wouldn't want to have it any other way. If you want easy go low and mid tier.

 

So it is an attack on someone when I point out that he doesn't have enough knowledge about a subject that he is trying to discuss? OK ...

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11 hours ago, DFens_666 said:

Quite frankly, the 15km RU BB radar with LoS would seem really retarded :Smile_teethhappy:

I really haven't given them much thought, so I I'm not sure I get the point as is to be frank.

 

 

9 hours ago, Ze_Reckless said:

Far less radar would benefit the DD for a couple of seconds, then a horde of BB players would whine about OP DDs and we are back at square one.

Well, WG has proven on multiple occasions that they do cater more to the BB crowd.

 

9 hours ago, Ze_Reckless said:

I told you which problem I see for the class balance, i.e. radar cruisers would be pointless. You think a cruiser can survive when he is detected for a minute in the open near a cap? Republique, Yamato, Stalin, Alaska, Kronshtadt and others laugh right here. In the near future Kreml's dispersion below 13 km will be a lot of quick fun for the cruiser.

There's play between completely in the open and just in the open enough to radar a DD.

 

Also, even if they couldn't use the radar they wouldn't be pointless. The radar would be, not the cruiser.

 

9 hours ago, Ze_Reckless said:

I don't see the benefit for the DD in your example. The cruiser can't shoot him. If the others are close enough to get meaningful hits on the DD he is severely out of position.

So you're seriously saying that a DD that's closer than some 10-12km from a BB or a cruiser or DD with reasonably flat arcs is severely out of position? Also, if the DD is trying to cap any hit is meaningful. Then it's approaching the meme about WG calling DDs "overconfident" when they got blapped by BBs from 15km away.

 

The benefit is in not getting shot at. It's not rocket science. Whether he's out of position is irrelevant to him benefitting from it.

 

9 hours ago, Ze_Reckless said:

In addition to this, with LoS the DD will never know if the cruiser used his radar. Nowadays you can bait a radar, sit it out at an island and then detect the cruiser and F3-key him into oblivion.

That there are advantages with x-ray radar doesn't eliminate the fact that there are advantages to LoS radar.

 

9 hours ago, Ze_Reckless said:

So it is an attack on someone when I point out that he doesn't have enough knowledge about a subject that he is trying to discuss? OK ...

You're debating the person rather than the argument, so yes, you're attacking the person.

 

Attack in this case refers to what you target with your arguments, not that you're being offensive or toxic or something like that.

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15 minutes ago, Runegrem said:

I really haven't given them much thought, so I I'm not sure I get the point as is to be frank.

 

How likely would it be, that you have to use Radar in open water to spot another BB - while being in a BB yourself.

The times ive seen Flamu play the RU BBs, every time he used radar was against BBs/CVs being behind islands.

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