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Radar Discussion Megathread

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11 hours ago, Shadeshot said:

So currently when radar is used anything within that range is lit up like a christmas tree for everyone to see and shoot at, through islands or in the open.

Yup. This is my main objection, indeed. 

 

It is just a delete button, and the radarship doesn't even have to be able to do it themselves.

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1 hour ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

Yup. This is my main objection, indeed. 

 

It is just a delete button, and the radarship doesn't even have to be able to do it themselves.

Most frustating is teammates who shout you to cap or spot when area is radarred...just heard funniest explanation...we have radar too...how does that help me if there is enemy radars and a lot of other ships...and that whiner was in mino behind island whining there is nothing to shoot....same time I was shooting Akis barrels beeing red

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Today's radar setup required 0 skill to use.

Push button, see all.

And getting sanity to the game, using radar on line of sight is not going to happens before WG recover the money from the cruiser addons.

Sad that the game have to be so damn unbalanced for so long.

 

So many way to balance the radar/detection, but as is it favor the high tier division play.. and the little people get stomped on..

 

But as always with WG, it' all about the money.

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Mayber it would help if the radar ship radiates a red light, so the whole team can see who is using radar.

I bet they would not like it, EVERYBODY would start shooting at them.

But that is the same as the DD that gets radared...

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@MrConway please dont look too much at those mimimimi threads.

its normal

  • New CL line with rapid firing guns and radars
  • DDBaby perma cry for mimimi radars mimim IJN torps notGud
  • mimimi i suck and cant addapt to play DD above T5 and different than Kamikaze
  • mimimi pls WG make hiSeas simple and boring like T5-6, because im not any more perma-invisible and i su*k in T9+

why there is no mimimim from any decent hitier DD player ?

because we all know

  • how to bait radars
  • how to contest caps
  • how to approach caps
  • and how to dodge shells

When there is invisible class capable to take out more than 1 ship in a volley that is "imbalance" and "broken"

 

On 28.07.2018 г. at 12:37 PM, BLUB__BLUB said:

Mayber it would help if the radar ship radiates a red light, so the whole team can see who is using radar.

I bet they would not like it, EVERYBODY would start shooting at them.

But that is the same as the DD that gets radared...

looool what you think is happening when radarship get spotted topkek

Little tip : F3 button can do miracles

Bigger tip : Learn radar ranges and duration

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Guys, let's keep it civil since we got WGs attention for once. 

 

@MrConway, I would suggest looking into dd survivability development in advanced stats. There is hardly a better way to determine radars influence than that, simply because the class has such a wide gap between skill floor and skill ceiling. 

 

Personally I'm doing very well with radar around, but then again I had the fortune to learn a lot about it in two CB seasons. This really is the crux of the problem since solo random play, without guides, will leave a lot of people wanting. 

 

I agree that high dpm cruisers shouldn't have radars exceeding their spotting ranges. It is just bad if you HAVE to trade hp just to get the guy lit up. 

 

I do consider radar a great tool for team work, but think a 40sec max duration (with the special upgrade) would be better. It should work through islands though, as a lot of radar cruisers are too squishy to support their team in the open. 

 

Lastly: A lot comes down to really bad map design. The A cap on both warrior's path and sleeping giant demand dd players willing to put penultimate trust into their team mates. A lack of support in those equals being stuck and waiting to die. It is okay to have uncomfortable situations, but those all or nothing gambles are just bad. 

 

Finally: I would like those who call radar op to really pay attention to their games. Is it really the radar killing you? In my experience it is more often the case of enemy dds screening their fleet, getting the initial spot and denying area so well they force me into a pickle. In short: They do their job well, play for the team, and the enemy should be rewarded for this. 

 

 

Can't wait for the armor change so bbs don't take half my hp with 3 shells, but I fear the concept is half baked and cruisers will now hurt even more. 

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23 minutes ago, _VAMPA_ said:

looool what you think is happening when radarship get spotted topkek

Little tip : F3 button can do miracles

Bigger tip : Learn radar ranges and duration

Of course F3. But I mean more like, a siren and a flashlight that is seen all over the map if it uses radar.

See how they like that, auto F3.

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10 minutes ago, dCK_Ad_Hominem said:

Guys, let's keep it civil since we got WGs attention for once. 

 

@MrConway, I would suggest looking into dd survivability development in advanced stats. There is hardly a better way to determine radars influence than that, simply because the class has such a wide gap between skill floor and skill ceiling. 

 

Personally I'm doing very well with radar around, but then again I had the fortune to learn a lot about it in two CB seasons. This really is the crux of the problem since solo random play, without guides, will leave a lot of people wanting. 

 

I agree that high dpm cruisers shouldn't have radars exceeding their spotting ranges. It is just bad if you HAVE to trade hp just to get the guy lit up. 

 

I do consider radar a great tool for team work, but think a 40sec max duration (with the special upgrade) would be better. It should work through islands though, as a lot of radar cruisers are too squishy to support their team in the open. 

 

Lastly: A lot comes down to really bad map design. The A cap on both warrior's path and sleeping giant demand dd players willing to put penultimate trust into their team mates. A lack of support in those equals being stuck and waiting to die. It is okay to have uncomfortable situations, but those all or nothing gambles are just bad. 

 

Finally: I would like those who call radar op to really pay attention to their games. Is it really the radar killing you? In my experience it is more often the case of enemy dds screening their fleet, getting the initial spot and denying area so well they force me into a pickle. In short: They do their job well, play for the team, and the enemy should be rewarded for this. 

 

 

Can't wait for the armor change so bbs don't take half my hp with 3 shells, but I fear the concept is half baked and cruisers will now hurt even more. 

u dont have to trade hp u cann approach and bait radar for 2salvos duration and if ur with stern to enemy very likely no to get any dmg

but yes radar range at its base should be same as the detectability of the ship not more, if we talk for Worcester her radar should be 9.5km of course to be balanced to same tier USN and RN radars the duration should be little bit longer :Smile_great:

 

btw gitgud factor is not problem of balance its problem to different department. gitgud problem comes first with that new fast XP gain scheme when i start playing you need 150 and more battles in t8 to advance to t9 now only with prem acc and the stuff which game gives to u u can get to tier X from T1 with that amount of battles

 

4 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

Of course F3. But I mean more like, a siren and a flashlight that is seen all over the map if it uses radar.

See how they like that, auto F3.

m8 so same thing should be put and for DDs under radar lmao because even now there is players which dont shoot at DDs even when they are capping....

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19 minutes ago, dCK_Ad_Hominem said:

Guys, let's keep it civil since we got WGs attention for once. 

 

@MrConway, I would suggest looking into dd survivability development in advanced stats. There is hardly a better way to determine radars influence than that, simply because the class has such a wide gap between skill floor and skill ceiling. 

 

Personally I'm doing very well with radar around, but then again I had the fortune to learn a lot about it in two CB seasons. This really is the crux of the problem since solo random play, without guides, will leave a lot of people wanting. 

 

I agree that high dpm cruisers shouldn't have radars exceeding their spotting ranges. It is just bad if you HAVE to trade hp just to get the guy lit up. 

 

I do consider radar a great tool for team work, but think a 40sec max duration (with the special upgrade) would be better. It should work through islands though, as a lot of radar cruisers are too squishy to support their team in the open. 

 

Lastly: A lot comes down to really bad map design. The A cap on both warrior's path and sleeping giant demand dd players willing to put penultimate trust into their team mates. A lack of support in those equals being stuck and waiting to die. It is okay to have uncomfortable situations, but those all or nothing gambles are just bad. 

 

Finally: I would like those who call radar op to really pay attention to their games. Is it really the radar killing you? In my experience it is more often the case of enemy dds screening their fleet, getting the initial spot and denying area so well they force me into a pickle. In short: They do their job well, play for the team, and the enemy should be rewarded for this. 

 

 

Can't wait for the armor change so bbs don't take half my hp with 3 shells, but I fear the concept is half baked and cruisers will now hurt even more. 

I'd start with the maps and see. Even if both warrior's path and sleeping giant can be tricky with too many radars, I think the North and Northern Lights are worse. The spots for radars there are just too good. You can ofc adapt and work around it, but these games can end in a landslide if some dds try early cap, or the games become stale with cruisers just denying 2 out of 4 caps. Given the increase of radars, decreasing the max duration might be a good idea. Or just introduce new high tier maps designed around more radars and exclude tier 10 from those maps that aren't handling radars as well.

 

Radar ranges are debatable. I can live with the current but wouldn't mind a change either.

 

CV rework is another thing that will help somewhat. Planes + plenty of radars can be a pain.

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17 minutes ago, _VAMPA_ said:

m8 so same thing should be put and for DDs under radar lmao because even now there is players which dont shoot at DDs even when they are capping....

 

There are quita a few reasons some do not shoot at those DDs.

Might be when you are in a BB your guns are turned the wrong way.

Might be you better shoot the Payfast that is grilling your @$$ from 10km the other way.

Might be there is a mountain in the way and you can't hit him anyway.

Might be 'another 30sec reload just kicked in yo'.

 

Ok and some are just lazy potatoes.

 

Usually they do not live long after getting radared...

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32 minutes ago, loppantorkel said:

I'd start with the maps and see. Even if both warrior's path and sleeping giant can be tricky with too many radars, I think the North and Northern Lights are worse. The spots for radars there are just too good. You can ofc adapt and work around it, but these games can end in a landslide if some dds try early cap, or the games become stale with cruisers just denying 2 out of 4 caps. Given the increase of radars, decreasing the max duration might be a good idea. Or just introduce new high tier maps designed around more radars and exclude tier 10 from those maps that aren't handling radars as well.

Generally good idea, though I have to admit I hardly ever go for caps on those maps (excluding ranked), since cruisers can cap those just as well. 

 

There are a number of maps I take Issue with, let's just hope wg puts up some of those to discussion, as the changes made to some maps really unbalanced the sides (Hot Spot was perfect, adding two default caps to sea of Fortune unnecessary).

32 minutes ago, loppantorkel said:

Radar ranges are debatable. I can live with the current but wouldn't mind a change either.

Range only becomes an issue in relation to the radar boat's own sea detection, so we agree on this. 

32 minutes ago, loppantorkel said:

CV rework is another thing that will help somewhat. Planes + plenty of radars can be a pain.

Honestly, I believe it will make a dd's job far easier, simply because I assume WG wants to greatly reduce the skill gap for this class and will thus make gameplay very arcadish. The result will be way more cvs in random, and the complete death of the class in competitive. This is just my prediction, but we shall see. 

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As I have said in other threads, I am ok with radar for the simple reason, that is prevents being perma-spotted.

 

 

I will say, and agree with what some are and have been saying. WG NEEDS to look at MM and evenly distribute Radar ships evenly between the teams .  Having a 5 v 1 radar ratio that happens frequently is not balanced, and given the amount of radar ships ingame now, and because of this it should be added to MM. Giving any reason not to do this would be BS,( but this is my opinion).

 

 

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I would like to see the radar (and maybe even the sonar - but in another way) to be more realistic as it was (which would balance it better too). In reality the radar made you knowing the position of a ship and the mark on the screen was bigger for big ships and smaller for small ships. What the radar did not show was the direction and the speed the ship was going. My suggestions:
- radar doesnt reveal the ship as it is seen by vision, but by its silhouette
- radar doesnt reveal smoke, which comes out of the funnel, so you cant see the exact speed of the ship, just approx.

- radar doesnt even show the shiptype, but approximately its size on the minimap (which is mostely compareable to a radarscreen), which means a high-tier cruiser can be bigger than a lower-tier BB oder a high-tier DD bigger than a lower-tier cruiser and so on

And now to Sonar: i do not think, sonar is too strong (maybe Z-52 is an exception with 2min 6km sonar), but as well as radar it did not show the ship by vision, but the position in water (same with torps) without any hints of speed and direction.


You could argue, that if a radar shows you the position of a ship, you can easier detect it by vision, because you know where to look for it. But if it is in or behind a smokescreen, you still will not be able to see the ship.

And of course, it is extremely strong, if the detection range of a ship is less than its radar range. I personally would prefer a radar, which increases the detectionrange by a part of its actual visibility range, which represents its size, which is responsible for its detection range (big shipps are easier seen by radar than small ones).
Suggestion:

US T8 +50%

US T9 +55%

US T10 +60%
USSR +80%
In addition can the maximum functional range of radar be increased to 10/11/12km for US and 14km for USSR cruiser, making radar more effective to detect low-range-detection cruiser and BBs. (everything of course also counts for BBs and DDs, which have radar ;) )

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5 hours ago, Kandar_99 said:

but as is it favor the high tier division play.. and the little people get stomped on..

 

Yep, and by making Radar LoS you will stomp random solo players even more and help those cancer divisions.

DD goes in, smokes, Worcester follows, sits in smokes *bing* enemy DD dead, Radar ship safe, DD safe, since the enemy radar ships would need to have LoS aswell on that Worcester now, in order to detect him.

 

2 hours ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

Of course F3. But I mean more like, a siren and a flashlight that is seen all over the map if it uses radar.

How does this help vs Radar ships that have longer range radar than detection? Nothing...

If the Radarship gets detected, he only has to use Radar, HE IS ALREADY DETECTED!

If the Radarship sits behind an island, well who cares if he is detected or not? You cant hit him anyway.

 

All in all Radar is fine, the only problem is ships that have Radar range equal or longer than their own detection. And maybe the duration from US CL Radar in combination with Radar module. Maybe US radar should be much smaller in general, and the radar module should extend range, not duration? So that the module works differently for US and RU cruisers.

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I think distributing radar ships evenly in MM would be a mistake tbh. It wouldn't break the game, but I think it wouldn't help the game either. MM is already very controlled to be fair. At some point it gets boring.

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4 hours ago, _VAMPA_ said:

@MrConway please dont look too much at those mimimimi threads.

 

why there is no mimimim from any decent hitier DD player ?

Please don't listen to posters who lie like this. There are a fair amount of good DD players who don't like radar. If you actually bothered to read those threads, instead of assuming everyone's whining because they're not good, you'd have seen many arguments against radar that aren't about radar being OP.

 

For the decent to good DD players, we know how to play around radar. It's not something that greatly affects us, and if anything it increases our influence due to the skillgap. The players it does affect are the less good ones, and those it absolutely destroys. So it comes back to the question I've asked several times but nevet gotten an answer to: Why are there higher skill requirements for DD players than for other players at high tiers? Sure, you can, and frequently do, say "git gud". But why does that not apply to the same extent to players of non-DDs?

 

And the main issue the DD players who can play around radar has is that it makes for more stale and campy games. Personally, the environment that radar has bred is what's made me almost give up on cruisers. They're just not as fun with this kind of gameplay.

 

1 hour ago, CptOddyB said:

I will say, and agree with what some are and have been saying. WG NEEDS to look at MM and evenly distribute Radar ships evenly between the teams .  Having a 5 v 1 radar ratio that happens frequently is not balanced, and given the amount of radar ships ingame now, and because of this it should be added to MM. Giving any reason not to do this would be BS,( but this is my opinion).

Again, this just means radar isn't balanced, and something should be done to correct the actual imbalance, not some hack job that pretends to fix it. I mean, unless you can demonstrate that there are equally many times where having more non-radar ships is more beneficial than having more radar ships.

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2 hours ago, AnotherDuck said:

Again, this just means radar isn't balanced, and something should be done to correct the actual imbalance, not some hack job that pretends to fix it. I mean, unless you can demonstrate that there are equally many times where having more non-radar ships is more beneficial than having more radar ships.

 

I have already made my stance on radar clear in another thread. I can also see an inbalance in Radar ships being distributed. Yet your attempt to invalidate any comment I make just shows your ignorance and dis-respect for anyone to have a point of view than does not fall into line with yours.

 

I am done here. I have put my PoV in a thread that has been started by a WG member.

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My main gripe about radar is that it is a direct counter to another ships consumable, which that ship only has a finite amount of. for example, in a RN CL it is possible to only have 2 smoke screen consumables (if you're not using superintendant or prem consumables. Now picture this: you managed to stealthily sneak your light cruiser close enough to the enemy lines that you can start to nose around an island, pop smoke and get some shots in, you've played well to get into such a position but that can all be nullified by someone else using radar, even if they're not in range to be detected themselves or even in line of sight.The result is that you would have to abandon your smoke, hide back behind the island and wait for the radar to stop (and hope the enemy only have 1 radar ship around) and after all that, you now could only have one more charge of smoke left.

 

What I would like to see is:

 

Smoke works as a counter to direct visibility so if you are 'lit up' by radar while you are in smoke, the enemy can see you on the map but the smoke still physically hides your ship. If you are radar-ed while outside of smoke then you will be spotted.

this way there is no hard counter to a limited use consumable.

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5 hours ago, CptOddyB said:

 

I will say, and agree with what some are and have been saying. WG NEEDS to look at MM and evenly distribute Radar ships evenly between the teams .  Having a 5 v 1 radar ratio that happens frequently is not balanced, and given the amount of radar ships ingame now, and because of this it should be added to MM. Giving any reason not to do this would be BS,( but this is my opinion).

 

 

One thing negates your quote, how can MM pick ships that have radar as an optional consumable like the Minotaur, Neptune etc that may have smoke instead of radar, It can not so how can MM evenly distribute radar ships ?????

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it's easy to stay alive in a DD against several radars. it's easy to "get good" in the current radar meta and avoid easy deaths with map awareness, radar baiting and everything else that has been listed a thousand times by good/very good players by now. the problem is not to stay alive during those crucial seconds when radar is active. the problem is the map control you lose when the opponent's radar is off cooldown.

 

i'm sure everyone can follow me when I talk about the imaginary lines on the minimap where it's safe/unsafe for you to move, respectively where you can threaten an opponent/prevent opponents movement. DDs/CVs generally try to push this line in the direction away from your team and to the opponent team. this mapcontrol allows everyone else to move in a better position. BBs hugging the map edge do so, because they think this line is too far in your direction. moving this front in an advantagous position is hard work for everyone involved.

 

And this is where the power of the radar comes in play. an opponent having radar off cooldown effortlessly pushes this line in your direction. DDs must leave the premises at once/ or not be there in the first place. this forces the capital ships behind the DD in a bad spot. they can't move where they want or need to be.

 

but no, I have no solutions either. I don't think you should nerf radar, if it can't to what it is supposed to do, then you might aswell skip it. maybe just limit the availability (less charges/longer cooldown).

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17 minutes ago, Araloth_of_Talsyn said:

it's easy to stay alive in a DD against several radars. it's easy to "get good" in the current radar meta and avoid easy deaths with map awareness, radar baiting and everything else that has been listed a thousand times by good/very good players by now. the problem is not to stay alive during those crucial seconds when radar is active. the problem is the map control you lose when the opponent's radar is off cooldown.

 

i'm sure everyone can follow me when I talk about the imaginary lines on the minimap where it's safe/unsafe for you to move, respectively where you can threaten an opponent/prevent opponents movement. DDs/CVs generally try to push this line in the direction away from your team and to the opponent team. this mapcontrol allows everyone else to move in a better position. BBs hugging the map edge do so, because they think this line is too far in your direction. moving this front in an advantagous position is hard work for everyone involved.

 

And this is where the power of the radar comes in play. an opponent having radar off cooldown effortlessly pushes this line in your direction. DDs must leave the premises at once/ or not be there in the first place. this forces the capital ships behind the DD in a bad spot. they can't move where they want or need to be.

 

but no, I have no solutions either. I don't think you should nerf radar, if it can't to what it is supposed to do, then you might aswell skip it. maybe just limit the availability (less charges/longer cooldown).

And when DDs learn to fight in current situation some people are asking for nerf to DDs or some gimmics to others...maybe missiles for some cruisers...

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There is no real disadvantage of using a radar consumable. Make it a choice between the AA and the Radar consumable on USN ships. So you can't have both.  Idk how it is on other ships I've mainly played the USN and French cruisers which the latter one does not have radar. 

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51 minutes ago, Linkaex said:

There is no real disadvantage of using a radar consumable. Make it a choice between the AA and the Radar consumable on USN ships. So you can't have both.  Idk how it is on other ships I've mainly played the USN and French cruisers which the latter one does not have radar. 

I think it is not so big problem in high tiers where you can see cv maby once in ten games.I tried AA built in Akizuki but it was useless just for that reason.

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1 hour ago, evp66 said:

I think it is not so big problem in high tiers where you can see cv maby once in ten games.I tried AA built in Akizuki but it was useless just for that reason.

Also, we don't know what the CV rework will bring. They did promise to rework AA with it.

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On 28/07/2018 at 7:52 PM, CptOddyB said:

I have already made my stance on radar clear in another thread. I can also see an inbalance in Radar ships being distributed. Yet your attempt to invalidate any comment I make just shows your ignorance and dis-respect for anyone to have a point of view than does not fall into line with yours.

Please read what I actually write instead of coming with baseless accusations that only shows your ignorance and disrespect. I barely remember your name, so I can't exactly be hunting down your every comment.

 

I explain what that opinion means in practice. If something isn't stronger, it doesn't need to be balanced by numbers. If something is stronger, balancing by numbers is a patch-work solution at best, since it doesn't address the problem of them being stronger. If something is better the more of them you add, then you have something that's inherently imbalanced, and balancing by numbers doesn't solve the actual imbalance. It's just plain logic.

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