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MrConway

Radar Discussion Megathread

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[WG-EU]
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Captains,

 

Please use this thread to conduct discussions about the current state of radar in the game.

 

As we have noticed a trend of more and more topics being opened about the same topic, we want to make sure the topic of radar doesn't take over the forums while having a place where concerns, feedback and suggestions can be voiced.

 

New radar threads will be merged into this one if they are not contributing anything new to the discussion.

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Oooh nice so WG noticed. :fish_cute_2:

While I am mostly fine with radar as it is, if i had to change something i would like WG to reconsider:

- making radar being blocked by islands (i know i know, too hard to grasp for the average player but may be worth at least a try no?)

- remove radar on DDs and BBs (and yes that is coming from a proud owner of a USS Black) make it a cruiser consumable to reinforce the cruiser utility.

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I think a big part of the problem is that Radar feels like a hard counter to one specific class (well, one class and one ship line... hello RN CLs...) in a way no other consumable except DefAA does. None of the other consumables except these two have the same power of dictating pretty much your entire gameplay when you're up against them (i.e. dictating "STAY THE EFF AWAY OR YOU DED").

And to compound that, this is a hard counter against the one class that (at high tiers) doesn't have any way to recover from the damage it does to you - lose 75% of your Gearing's HP to that random suicidal New Orleans/Chappy that just went herpaderp imma rush cap and die bottom tier stinks anyway herpaderp here's a random radar that spots you before you can even see me (we've all been there...), and suddenly you can forget about ever contesting caps or pulling any risky maneuvers...

Yes, there are ways to play around radar - of course there are! Map awareness is a thing, after all... but still, the sheer threat of Radar creates large no-go zones for your DDs that you can't do much about without help from your team. Sure, you can try to go somewhere else, but that is often not where you'd want or need to be to win the match...

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[XODUS]
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Part of me would have no objection if radar operated like it does in a Cyclone.

IE: pop radar against ship outside 8km spotting only radar ship can shoot it but everyone sees it on the mini map. 

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Just remember that the cruiser boom is temporary in nature.

Numbers are going down again.

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Thx @MrConway.

 

My personal opinion: 

I don't think Radar is too strong in Random battles. Especially because there is no real focus fire.

 

  • I like that you can radar for your teammates too, which supports teamplay.
    Doing that through islands also supports teamplay.

 

  • I don't like that some USN radars are running for 48 seconds.
    It is just blocking the area for too long, making it too easy to cycle radars, completely blocking a cap.
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Radars are totally necesary and even needs a buff...

 

As I said earlier. DDs (and RN cruisers) just want to sit down confortably on their smoke screen without having the posibility of being shooted back. Sure, you can blind shoot/torp but it's more a matter of luck to hit anything.

 

And if you want to that coward dd from it's smoke screen he will torp you to death. And even if you manage to dodge it's torps you will receive alot of enemy fire from others ships.

IT's extremely frustrating to see a dd hiding in smoke screen, shoot you, burn you to death, and not being able to do anything but to wait until the smoke screen fades.

The radar it's the only thing that can compensate that.

 

Also... even for a CV smoke screen it's very frustrating. Lots of times I fly near a dd, he uses smoke screen and shoots down your planes from it without being spotted (and it's even worse with USN dds which almost all of them has defensive aa). Hell, there was a "bad advice" chapter about it which nowadays makes no sense.

 

DD players should just learn to do not sit down and accept they can be countered.

 

Also it would be a good idea to give Cvs some sort of spotter squad with radars.

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3 hours ago, Sargento_YO said:

Radars are totally necesary and even needs a buff...

 

As I said earlier. DDs (and RN cruisers) just want to sit down confortably on their smoke screen without having the posibility of being shooted back. Sure, you can blind shoot/torp but it's more a matter of luck to hit anything.

 

And if you want to that coward dd from it's smoke screen he will torp you to death. And even if you manage to dodge it's torps you will receive alot of enemy fire from others ships.

IT's extremely frustrating to see a dd hiding in smoke screen, shoot you, burn you to death, and not being able to do anything but to wait until the smoke screen fades.

The radar it's the only thing that can compensate that.

 

Also... even for a CV smoke screen it's very frustrating. Lots of times I fly near a dd, he uses smoke screen and shoots down your planes from it without being spotted (and it's even worse with USN dds which almost all of them has defensive aa). Hell, there was a "bad advice" chapter about it which nowadays makes no sense.

 

DD players should just learn to do not sit down and accept they can be countered.

 

Also it would be a good idea to give Cvs some sort of spotter squad with radars.

*edit

 

Add more radar for all I care, just give DDs anti radar missiles then ?

Edited by Mlddim
This post has been edited by the moderation team due to naming and shaming
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2 hours ago, PapVogele said:

*edit

 

Add more radar for all I care, just give DDs anti radar missiles then ?

What that has to do with the fact I SUFFER them??

Besides, I play for fun. And I can tell you high tier cv battles aren't fun. Hell, even dds have defensive aa there!

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I think the radar is not so broken as some wrote in other threads.

My only concerns are ships which have a bigger radar range then detection range.

So I think some reduction of the radar range (global for all radars or only for some ships) should be done.

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I dislike the lack of counter-play that comes with being radar'd as well as the lack of any kind of risk to the radar ship, especially with the benefits it has along with it working through islands.

I'd like to see it being limited to line-of-sight only with some sort of "radar-jammer" like consumable available for DDs that wouldn't necessarily mitigate it but provide some of protection against it.

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1 hour ago, Sargento_YO said:

What that has to do with the fact I SUFFER them??

Besides, I play for fun. And I can tell you high tier cv battles aren't fun. Hell, even dds have defensive aa there!

Aww does something have a consumable that partially counters your attacks... thats a problem for you, yet you want more of a consumeable that straight up gets DDs killed? Love your very biased logic there mr. Sealclubber..

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57 minutes ago, Aotearas said:

 

Says the guy with literally no hightier DD experience or really any respectable DD gameplay experience in total. Yes, yes, by now I'm sure everyone knows your narrative of "they just want to gun from smoke undetected all game long" and I'm also pretty sure everyone who knows a thing about DD gameplay told you you're wrong. But ey, never let the judgement of better DD players change your precious little bias ...

 

 

 

(any mod wants to delete that paragraph because it hurt his feelings, here's a clear line for orientation)

____________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

 

As for the topic itself, there's four issues I'm seeing:

 

  1. No learning curve: You don't get to play against any radar ships until tier VIII MM (exception being the occasional tier VII MM with premium radar ships Atlanta, Belfast and Indianapolis). From nothing you suddenly have to adjust your playstyle and positioning to beware a consumable that can spot you regardless of visual obstructions with no counterplay other than not being there. Little wonder so many people have problems with radar.
  2. An abundance of ships having access to radar: When first introduced it was just USN and VMF cruisers that got radar, two lines. Now we also get the USN light cruisers, plus more and more premium ships getting radar as gimmick (including the only ships with radar at tier VII) and the RN CLs and PA DDs with the option to mount the radar consumable. It's easy to adjust to play against two or three radar ships, but more than that and suddenly the space you can work without being in danger of being lit up by a key stroke drastically shrinks, especially around objectives where any radar ship worth it's salt tends to be.
  3. MM distributing radar ships willy-nilly: Often enough both teams get some radar ships, or in case of tier VII MM one team doesn't get much more than 1 radar ships. But the MM also regularily seeds games where one team gets several radar ships and the other gets much fewer or even none at all. A domination game with one team having 5 radar ships and the other team having 0 is hilariously skewed in the formers advantage.
  4. Radar ships having equal or greater radar range compared to their surface detectability: Got spotted by an undetected DD? Just press the magic button and violá. Oh, you can't turn away fast enough before my and my allies dpm chewses though half your HP? What a shame ...

 

Solution suggestions:

 

  • Add an active counterplay compenent to radar. For example a counter consumable like say Chaff that makes a ship invisible to radar for a small amount of time.
  • Alternatively, include something akin to radio range in WoT where only ships within a certain distance of the radar ship can actually see the radared ship, for everyone else it just shows up on the minimap. Would even add another vector to balance radar ships around rather than just radar range and duration.
  • Implement a filter in MM for the common radar ships (all tier VIII+ USN cruisers, all tier VIII+ VMF cruisers, all premium ships with radar) and have the MM try to seed them in equal or at least comparable numbers in both teams to reduce the chance of ludicrous radar MM where on team gets lots of radar ships and the other gets little to none. Ships where the choice for radar is offset by another competitive consumable (i.e.: RN CL or PA DD smokes) can be considered as non-Radar ships for the MM filter, keep some of the surprise when facing a RN CL or PA DD running radar instead of smoke.
  • Link radar detection to line-of-sight to eliminate the ability of radar ships sitting safely behind island cover and lighting up enemy ships without risking exposure whilst everyone else on the team can take shots at the enemy.
  • Ships shouldn't be able to instant radar other ships the moment they get spotted by something. There should always be a small buffer zone another ship can use to at least try to react to the fact that the ship he just spotted (for example at the start of the game) is a radar ship. As it stands right now some ships have such good concealment and radar range that just the happenstance of running into one of those can result in nasty HP loss even if you instantly turn away and try to run as you still inevitably spend some time within their radar range before you get away.

 

 Very well written, when I get to a computer I’ll get to writing down my own thoughts :)

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12 minutes ago, FluffyRedFox said:

I dislike the lack of counter-play

 

 

12 minutes ago, FluffyRedFox said:

as well as the lack of any kind of risk to the radar ship 

 

"Most ships can be spotted at the edge of their radar range. 
Just spot them and get out of their radar again, you will not have any problems at that distance. 
Instead they will shoot and stay spotted for your team to shoot them in return."

 

12 minutes ago, FluffyRedFox said:

especially with the benefits it has along with it working through islands.

 

That is good for teamplay.

Just use your head and watch out for that possibility.

 

12 minutes ago, FluffyRedFox said:

I'd like to see it being limited to line-of-sight only with some sort of "radar-jammer" like consumable

 

And what would be the counter to that then?

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The main strength of radar vs those who understand it is that a ship equipped with it slow the game down as the radar range is essentially a buffer zone where DDs take a big risk if they go into it. 

 

This stops DDs capping and effectively torping the enemy. 

 

A DD with a brain and experience will likely not die much by being radar lit but their actions will be limited by said radar bubble. 

 

This has fairly big consequences for Ranked, Domination and CW as you bleed points whilst the radar lives.

 

 

 

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Since I dont play DD's much nor cruisers as im main BB, I have no problems with radars, but nerfing them to work more proper would be nice. By 'work proper' I mean to remove radar detecting behind islands.

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I think the radars are okay at the moment, but I think some maps suffer more from a large number of radars.

 

So, a suggestion: Look at North, Northern Lights and maybe exclude tier 10 MM for these maps. Only tier 7-9 or whatnot, to keep the radars down somewhat. Easy solution, if it seems good.

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My 2 cents :

- the number of radar ships per team (USN and RU CA/CLs) should preferably be roughly the same 

- a ship shouldn't have lower or equal detection than its radar range (except PA DDs and RN CLs) - I think a window of 300m/400m should suffice

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a simple solution to radar, is do as i have done, 

don't play the game, its that easy, 

Played WOWP from the very start, loved the game for the first 6 months or so, paid a large sum of money, for premium account, for planes, etc, supported WG financially, then it went sour, premium planes paid for with hard cash, nerfed until they became pretty much useless, Jap line nerfed into oblivion, 

 

so then WOWS arrived, and again after a short honeymoon period, nerfs started, new consumables etc, anything to turn a coin, was and is, the WG motto, with one big difference, none of MY money or coins have been turned,

then WG introduced RADAR, and for me, the game went into the ground like a dart,

I could not give a toss if WG continue trading as a business, i care even less, if Ivan cannot pay his utility bills to keep himself and family warm in the long cold Russian winters, or put food in their mouths and cloths on their backs, 

WG has a very short sighted business ethic, peddling trinkets, t-shirts, and other crap, premium ships that will be nerfed as soon as another premium ship in a similar class, is launched, ripping off the existing client base even more, 

 

WOWP has approximately <25K - <30K players per night, WOWP had until an update which hides the Player numbers <2K per night, the EU has a population 508,000,000. i wonder what WG picks up on their RADAR, does it pay well???

 

CYA

 

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Radar is mostly fine the way it is. Most people complaining about it seem to want to continu playing DDs as they did on low tiers and fail to adapt to the presence of radar OR don't even play radar ships.

What should be adressed is radar range vs detection range: stealth radar is bad and should be removed, a discrepancy between both of 500m should suffice.

 

That being said, if you do plan to rework radar: make sure that cruisers currently having radar don't lose power ( aka, you might need to buff some other stats on said ships to keep them in line with their other ships, especially at tier X where I consider cruisers to be well balanced amongst eachother ).

 

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2 hours ago, PapVogele said:

And here we go again, the sealclubbing scrublord whose highest tier DD is a tier 7 with appallable wr goes on a rant because he cant drop the low tier DDs when they smoke up...

 

Add more radar for all I care, just give DDs anti radar missiles then ?

 

Pro-tip: Don't come in my thread to stats-bash, I don't like it and it violates forum rules.

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11 minutes ago, MrConway said:

Pro-tip: Don't come in my thread to stats-bash, I don't like it and it violates forum rules.

 

Your T-61 stats need some serious padding though. :etc_red_button:

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3 hours ago, Sargento_YO said:

Radars are totally necesary and even needs a buff...

 

As I said earlier. DDs (and RN cruisers) just want to sit down confortably on their smoke screen without having the posibility of being shooted back. Sure, you can blind shoot/torp but it's more a matter of luck to hit anything.

 

And if you want to that coward dd from it's smoke screen he will torp you to death. 

Hopefully, people can see your complete bias against anything DD related and will ignore this.

 

What follows are the opinions of an average DD player who only plays randoms.

 

Radar is seemingly getting back to a normal level now, the USN line seems to have had it's day. If it had continued then maybe something should have been done. I had originally said it should work on line of sight and still think that to a certain extent but feel lowering the duration and/or bringing it further into line with the ships concealment would be a less harsh measure. Actually I've thought about it some more and I think the main thing is to balance radar distribution through MM, although rare, having 4 radars on 1 team and none on the other just unbalance the game too much. Radar has added a new dimension/skillset to the game and making the DD's have to plan more is not a bad thing, although I do dislike the passive game play it sometimes requires.

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46 minutes ago, MrConway said:

 

Pro-tip: Don't come in my thread to stats-bash, I don't like it and it violates forum rules.

Genuine question, how is it statbashing when:

1: I’m referring to publicly available information.

2: I’m pointing out 1 ship to call bias in his arguments, and not bashing his general stats?

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