Isn't BB's AP overpen a little bit to much for the DD's?

[SR_FRIOL]

Have ever WG said anything about this mechanic?

[ColonelPete]

Yes, and there are a lot of threads about it.

[HaachamaShipping]

Yes, they said they want to fix it. They have brought up multiple ideas. So far, they seemed not to work as intented, it seems. Maybe one day...

[TBNRtom]

After we complained for about a whole year abou this WG has stated multiple times that they are working on improving these mechanics. If I remember correctly there is even something in Supertest right now.

[WeGreedy]

Regarding the title, I guess they will never change the damage over-penetrations deal.

Most likely they will get rid of full-penetrations on destroyers by battleships.

[Azalgor]

Isn't BB's AP overpen a little bit to much for the DD's?

 

Is this game still to hard for pre school aged children?

[Aotearas]

Overpenetrations are fine. If a BB can hit the DD he deserves some damage and even just an overpen is still ~10% of a DD's maximum HP. You'd have to catch an awful lot of overpens in a single salvo to suffer a crippling blow and that's not quite likely with BB dispersion unless you're precariously close to the BB.

 

It's the full penetrations that will chunk a DD for 20-25% of its HP in a single shell hit that are a problem and the reason why most BBs don't bother switching ammunition choice to HE even in preparation for shooting at DDs since you can still do obscene amounts of damage with AP if you get one or two full pens on it.

 

 

Nevermind the nonsense bugs where a single shell can do double damage.

[Lootboxer]

Yes. Every time when I can I will go full potato broadside to BB. It hurts much less then some magic bullet dealing double damage when angled trying to dodge. Montana is the worst. Too accurate with insane RNG for a BB. 

[Capra76]

5 minutes ago, Aotearas said:

Overpenetrations are fine. If a BB can hit the DD he deserves some damage and even just an overpen is still ~10% of a DD's maximum HP. You'd have to catch an awful lot of overpens in a single salvo to suffer a crippling blow and that's not quite likely with BB dispersion unless you're precariously close to the BB.

 

It's the full penetrations that will chunk a DD for 20-25% of its HP in a single shell hit that are a problem and the reason why most BBs don't bother switching ammunition choice to HE even in preparation for shooting at DDs since you can still do obscene amounts of damage with AP if you get one or two full pens on it.

Mostly true, but also bear in mind that the difference between an HE pen and an AP overpen isn't that great either, for example Monty HE gives 1,900 compared to 1,350 from AP with a chance of a 4,500 pen.

 

Perhaps WG should make overpen damage some % of the targests HP rather than a fixed amount related to the shell.

[PapVogele]

16 minutes ago, Azalgor said:

Isn't BB's AP overpen a little bit to much for the DD's?

 

Is this game still to hard for pre school aged children?

Its apparently too hard for you....

[Aotearas]

Just now, Capra76 said:

Mostly true, but also bear in mind that the difference between an HE pen and an AP overpen isn't that great either, for example Monty HE gives 1,900 compared to 1,350 from AP with a chance of a 4,500 pen.

 

Which is why people take the gamble and stick to AP, don't lose much at worst and can if they get lucky it's goodbye DD on a salvo that wouldn't have done nearly as much damage with the same number of HE hits.

 

But let's not forget that HE has the added benefit of nuking ship modules and setting fires though, plus with splash damage even a near miss can still hurt or at least still do module damage (that time where I detonated a DD with "0" hits ... very fun, much engaging).

 

 

My point being, AP overpens are fine as they are and if a BB has the opportunity to take a potshot with AP, he should be rewarded for hits. But if a BB purposefully wants to kill the DD, the ammunition choice should favour HE.

[Uglesett]

11 minutes ago, Aotearas said:

But let's not forget that HE has the added benefit of nuking ship modules and setting fires though, plus with splash damage even a near miss can still hurt or at least still do module damage (that time where I detonated a DD with "0" hits ... very fun, much engaging).

It's almost impossible to hit a DD with BB HE and not knock out either propulsion, steering or both...

[DFens_666]

16 minutes ago, Aotearas said:

But let's not forget that HE has the added benefit of nuking ship modules and setting fires though, plus with splash damage even a near miss can still hurt or at least still do module damage (that time where I detonated a DD with "0" hits ... very fun, much engaging).

 

I think the far bigger problem is, that the modules eat the HE damage.

Ive said it like half a year - one year ago, that once they fix BB AP on DDs, and some BB player will start to shoot HE at them, that it might be even worse than before. BB player might not get that much damage, but the DD will suffer module damage to basicly everything when it gets hit by ~6 BB HE shells. Sure with last stand it can still flee and turn, but hf without torps and guns.

Ive done that with Orion on lowtier cruisers, i think its the most unfun mechanic ever. Shoot: Engine down, must use DCP. next salvo engine down again, after that rudder, guns are breaking. Sit in the water till u get blasted to pieces.

Which brings me to another point: Are modules breaking more easily lately? Basicly i lose torpedo tubes on my Hindenburg every match, somtimes to BBs secondaries....

[Aotearas]

10 minutes ago, Uglesett said:

It's almost impossible to hit a DD with BB HE and not knock out either propulsion, steering or both...

 

Don't forget the torpedo tubes, nothing annoys a DD play more than getting their torps disabled during a reload cycle because it resets the reload countdown.

[Ouzo11]

They said they will reduce dd armor values to fix that.
People at forums replied that, if its done then cruiser ap will wreck dds.
Few days ago, som1 said that wg abandonded that plan but i dont have any proof for that.

[BeauNidl3]

Just now, DFens_666 said:

 

I think the far bigger problem is, that the modules eat the HE damage.

Ive said it like half a year - one year ago, that once they fix BB AP on DDs, and some BB player will start to shoot HE at them, that it might be even worse than before. BB player might not get that much damage, but the DD will suffer module damage to basicly everything when it gets hit by ~6 BB HE shells. Sure with last stand it can still flee and turn, but hf without torps and guns.

Ive done that with Orion on lowtier cruisers, i think its the most unfun mechanic ever. Shoot: Engine down, must use DCP. next salvo engine down again, after that rudder, guns are breaking. Sit in the water till u get blasted to pieces.

Which brings me to another point: Are modules breaking more easily lately? Basicly i lose torpedo tubes on my Hindenburg every match, somtimes to BBs secondaries....

 

This is true, I got hit by 2 turrets of a Lion in my Fletcher, knocked out all guns, both torpedoes, engine, rudder all AA. 2 turrets and 1 torp tube were destroyed permanently along with all the AA. Oh and 10k damage. It's very nasty.

 

Unless I'm sailing a Brit BB I stick to AP on DD's as if it angles it tends to do horrible damage even dev strikes, but most of us who drive DD's know this very well.

[Uglesett]

1 minute ago, Ouzo11 said:

They said they will reduce dd armor values to fix that.

No, that was intended to do something about DDs suffering full penetrations from BB AP projectiles. Reducing the armour would basically have turned most of the full penetrations into overpens.

 

OP is arguing that overpenetrations are also doing too much damage.

[Ouzo11]

crap you are right
Apologies

[wilkatis_LV]

Title: Overpens.

Almost everyone: OMG PENS!!!!

Spoiler

 

 

43 minutes ago, Aotearas said:

Overpenetrations are fine.

Except when 1 overpen magically does 2x to 4x the damage going past even what a full pen would do, but somehow I always get the feeling I'm the only one who has a problem with that

 

48 minutes ago, Aotearas said:

the reason why most BBs don't bother switching ammunition choice to HE

Is the reload. I'm not wasting 30s to  swap amo and hope it's still the right choice. I'm not even going to waste 15s (with EL) on that. By that time there's a good chance the target has already disappeared.

10s (Republic with EL) or 7.5s (improved EL - US special captains) are perfectly fine for that, I will actually swap the amo if situation allows for it.

 

Other than that - just clear the barrels from whatever I have, and load what's likely to be most useful for the next salvo (generally AP)

 

26 minutes ago, Uglesett said:

It's almost impossible to hit a DD with BB HE and not knock out either propulsion, steering or both...

Plus guns, torpedoes, whatever they call AA for themselves... Everything goes

 

14 minutes ago, Ouzo11 said:

They said they will reduce dd armor values to fix that.

Afaik that idea is cancelled, bcuz - as literally everyone could predict - cruiser AP could nuke DDs, and guess what - cruisers shoot much more often, have generally higher DPM and are far far more accurate than BBs

 

 

[Tungstonid]

42 minutes ago, Aotearas said:

Which is why people take the gamble and stick to AP, don't lose much at worst and can if they get lucky it's goodbye DD on a salvo that wouldn't have done nearly as much damage with the same number of HE hits.

Is it really a gamble or more of a choice to either fire what you have loaded (which should be AP for BBs in most cases) or start reloading your guns and wait for 30 seconds during which your target probably is either dead or not visible anymore? In the worst case you have just loaded HE for that DD but your target is dead so you are left with shooting sub-par ammo on other targets or you reload again to use AP. Either way, you basically waste another 30 seconds.

 

What makes me stay with AP for the most time is that both ammo choices have similar performances (damage-wise) and - most of all - that I don't want to sit there and reload the guns so I use the "right" ammo against a target which I might not even be able to shoot at after the reload. It is not the lucky pen or double-pen I could get.

 

If I knew that my next opponent I have to hit or can hit reliably is a DD, I'll switch to HE. But that is rarely the case during a normal battle.

 

Edit: Ninja'ed by @wilkatis_LV

[Miessa3]

45 minutes ago, wilkatis_LV said:

Title: Overpens.

Almost everyone: OMG PENS!!!!

  Hide contents

 

 

Except when 1 overpen magically does 2x to 4x the damage going past even what a full pen would do, but somehow I always get the feeling I'm the only one who has a problem with that

 

Is the reload. I'm not wasting 30s to  swap amo and hope it's still the right choice. I'm not even going to waste 15s (with EL) on that. By that time there's a good chance the target has already disappeared.

10s (Republic with EL) or 7.5s (improved EL - US special captains) are perfectly fine for that, I will actually swap the amo if situation allows for it.

 

Other than that - just clear the barrels from whatever I have, and load what's likely to be most useful for the next salvo (generally AP)

 

Plus guns, torpedoes, whatever they call AA for themselves... Everything goes

 

Afaik that idea is cancelled, bcuz - as literally everyone could predict - cruiser AP could nuke DDs, and guess what - cruisers shoot much more often, have generally higher DPM and are far far more accurate than BBs

 

 

 

44 minutes ago, Tungstonid said:

Is it really a gamble or more of a choice to either fire what you have loaded (which should be AP for BBs in most cases) or start reloading your guns and wait for 30 seconds during which your target probably is either dead or not visible anymore? In the worst case you have just loaded HE for that DD but your target is dead so you are left with shooting sub-par ammo on other targets or you reload again to use AP. Either way, you basically waste another 30 seconds.

 

What makes me stay with AP for the most time is that both ammo choices have similar performances (damage-wise) and - most of all - that I don't want to sit there and reload the guns so I use the "right" ammo against a target which I might not even be able to shoot at after the reload. It is not the lucky pen or double-pen I could get.

 

If I knew that my next opponent I have to hit or can hit reliably is a DD, I'll switch to HE. But that is rarely the case during a normal battle.

 

Edit: Ninja'ed by @wilkatis_LV

So basically you say that you also wouldn't turn your gunturrets in a slowturning BB like Yamato if a DD surprises you being spotted in an unexpected position because by the time you turned the guns he could be back in stealth again? (not counting DDs charging right at you ofc)

 

I would understand if you say I clear the barrels to shoot AP at the current target (which most of the times is not a DD except you are one of those that pick KM BBs to actively hunt and charge DDs) and then switch to HE because that DD popped up. Yes it may vanish before you reload but then you can shoot the HE at the other targets right? You can reload AP after that.

[HaachamaShipping]

1 hour ago, Capra76 said:

Mostly true, but also bear in mind that the difference between an HE pen and an AP overpen isn't that great either, for example Monty HE gives 1,900 compared to 1,350 from AP with a chance of a 4,500 pen.

 

Perhaps WG should make overpen damage some % of the targests HP rather than a fixed amount related to the shell.

Amagi gives 2,167 HE pen compared to a 1,260 AP overpen. Yamato is 2,433 vs 1,480. Don't forget, there are lines with actually good alpha on the HE.

 

On the other hand, Bismarck is 1,467 vs 1,160 and Großer Kurfürst is 1,600 vs 1,270. Imo, worst would be though Graf spee, with 1,067 vs 840 (main reason why i hardly ever bother with Spee HE, because it just sucks 20% fire chance with 6 shells is also terrible).

[DFens_666]

1 hour ago, BeauNidl3 said:

 

This is true, I got hit by 2 turrets of a Lion in my Fletcher, knocked out all guns, both torpedoes, engine, rudder all AA. 2 turrets and 1 torp tube were destroyed permanently along with all the AA. Oh and 10k damage. It's very nasty.

 

Unless I'm sailing a Brit BB I stick to AP on DD's as if it angles it tends to do horrible damage even dev strikes, but most of us who drive DD's know this very well.

 

I always think that the best way to balance damage dealt would not be to make caliber x deal x damage, but that the damage is calculated on the ship which gets hit.

F.e. a DD getting hit by a Yamato shell could receive less damage (overpen or pen) than the same shell hitting a Cruiser/BB/CV.

Ofc this would require much more detail than current damage calculation.

[AnEvilJoke]

2 hours ago, Alelos said:

Have ever WG said anything about this mechanic?

 

Seeing that iRL an overpen from a 400mm+ shell would rip a hole the size of a grown man into a lightly armored ship...

Every overpen should have 50% change to cause a flooding on DDs...

I play DDs btw...

 

[BeauNidl3]

1 hour ago, wilkatis_LV said:

Title: Overpens.

Almost everyone: OMG PENS!!!!

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

Except when 1 overpen magically does 2x to 4x the damage going past even what a full pen would do, but somehow I always get the feeling I'm the only one who has a problem with that

 

Seen it in both directions, been splattered in DD and seen a single overpen do nuts damage, it's busted somewhere.

1 hour ago, wilkatis_LV said:

 

Is the reload. I'm not wasting 30s to  swap amo and hope it's still the right choice. I'm not even going to waste 15s (with EL) on that. By that time there's a good chance the target has already disappeared.

10s (Republic with EL) or 7.5s (improved EL - US special captains) are perfectly fine for that, I will actually swap the amo if situation allows for it.

 

Other than that - just clear the barrels from whatever I have, and load what's likely to be most useful for the next salvo (generally AP)

 

Indeed, I agree, the whole reload cycle at around 30s makes it impractical

1 hour ago, wilkatis_LV said:

Plus guns, torpedoes, whatever they call AA for themselves... Everything goes

 

Afaik that idea is cancelled, bcuz - as literally everyone could predict - cruiser AP could nuke DDs, and guess what - cruisers shoot much more often, have generally higher DPM and are far far more accurate than BBs

 

I'm really glad to hear that, it was a dumb idea which would have resulted in secondaries, cruiser AP and even small calibre DD AP causing all sorts of issues.