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Saiyko

copy-paste of "mouses-angry-youtuber-reviews-of-ijn-destroyers"

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I found this post by @LittleWhiteMouse on the NA forums - and I liked it very very much. Was a little bit surprised it didn't get mentioned here, so I'll do the copy paste.
 
 
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Hello, Readers!  At the end of May, we hit my first Patreon Funding Goal and promised to put together an Angry Youtuber review of a tech tree line of my patron's choice.  With June's reviews all squared away, I got to work and tallied the votes.  Here's what they were:
 
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German cruisers had the early lead but the Japanese destroyer line ended up taking primacy.  I suspect that the hype surrounding the new gunship destroyers tipped the scales.  Good choice.
 
 So, without further ado, let's get started.
 
The Old Guard (Tier 2 through 4)
The low-tier Japanese destroyers are universally strong -- and I'd argue a little too strong.  Japanese destroyers excel at punishing distracted players and there are few players as easily distracted as those who are still sparkly eyed and new to the game. They quite deservedly have a reputation for being the chariot of choice for seal-clubbers as they have a combination of high alpha strike attacks and ridiculous levels of concealment.  Their only weakness is gunship destroyers like Vampire, Clemson and Derzki, but these must be crewed by similarly experienced players to stand a chance of limiting the influences of these terrors of the low-tiers.
 
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Welcome to PVP Battles in World of Warships.  Someone with 800 games in an Umikaze that likes to brag about their win rate will be handing you your [edited]shortly.
 
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Wakatake is a good ship but she's certainly not the most advantageous destroyer out at tier 3.  What she does do well is prep new Japanese destroyer players to the kind of game play that will see them through the rest of tech tree (barring the ducks).  Wakatake has decent torps but they're easy for wary opponents to dodge.  She's reasonably stealthy but you have to worry about tripping over gunships at close range.  She's not going to be able to outfight much of what she trips over either.  Wakatake delivers a few bumps, bruises and scraped knees to help cement the realities of Japanese destroyer game play before setting them loose into the higher tiers.
 
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Isokaze was nerfed in 0.5.15.  Someone forgot to tell her.  She's probably the only thing that can keep Orion and Imperator Nikolai I in check.
 
The Split (Tier 5)
With patch 0.5.15 in late November of 2016, the Japanese destroyer line received the first of two updates.  There were two significant changes.  First, they nerfed the Hell out of some of the more overpowered destroyers in the line -- most notably Isokaze and Minekaze.  The second change was that the line divided down two distinct paths while reshuffling the tiers of select ships.  One path was meant to focus on long-range torpedo attacks.  The other was meant to have a balance between artillery and torpedoes.

No, you're not the only one.  I couldn't tell them apart either.
 
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Mutsuki got a pretty healthy buff by being downtiered.  She used to be tier VI and much the same as she appears now.  Her guns are all kinds of terrible though, so I guess that means she can't be a part of that so called "gunship" destroyer line.  That just leaves...
 
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Ouch.  Minekaze is a shadow of her former self.  She used to epitomize everything that was great (overpowered) about the early Japanese destroyer line.  She was nerfed repeatedly and with some determined finality in 0.5.15.  She's supposed to head the "gunship" destroyer line but she remains arguably a better torpedo boat than Mutsuki, even with the nerfs.
 
The Uh... "Gunship" Destroyers (Tier 6 & 7)
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Poor Hatsuharu.  She's never really had a niche where she stood out.  The best that could be said about her is that she's not terrible, but she's long been overshadowed by Fubuki who sat a tier higher before and now competes with her directly on the second line.  She's stealthier than Fubuki and her guns reload faster but not so fast that you'd ever want to use them unless you had to. That's about all the good I can say about her really. 

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The meme boat.  I'm not going to overdo it here because it's almost a dead horse at this stage.  Shiratsuyu used to be THE destination ship on the "gunship" line, and not because she had good guns but because she had amazing torpedoes (go figure THAT one out).  She used to have access to the Torpedo Reload Booster AND Smoke Generator at the same time.  Yeah.  It was as OP as you're imagining.  Now she's all kinds of forgotten.  She's stealthier than Akatsuki but slower, so it's a weird trade off.
 
The Torpedo Boats (Tiers 6 through 10)
I think I've got this sorted out now.  The torpedo line leads off from Mutsuki and presses on through to Shimakaze.  This line is largely defined by having the most powerful torpedoes in the game at their tier but with the drawbacks of slow-firing guns and an enormous spotting range on their fish.  This last trait is a serious point of contention among the community -- particularly fans of the Japanese destroyer line.  The high spotting distance of their fish precludes them from making the most of their massive range and short of being played in the hands of an expert, will lead to inconsistent performance.

These are random-battle champions, though, and some of the most popular destroyers in the game. 
 

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Fubuki is a great start to the torpedo-line for the IJN destroyers.  While she's found wanting where her guns are concerned (even among IJN DDs), her torpedo armament is awesome and it's fast reloading too.  She can cause a lot of mayhem if you can get a 10pt commander in her. 

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No matter how good all of her other traits are, there's just that one flaw that overshadows everything...
 
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At tier VIII, everything begins to go to Hell for IJN destroyers.  The meta ramps up hard with stealthy destroyer-hunters, long range and long lasting hydro, and radar everywhere.  Kagero and Yugumo should be good ships -- they take Akatsuki's formula and then slap on excellent concealment without sacrificing their torpedo armament.  Yet it just doesn't feel enough...

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It's hard to argue that any other tier X destroyer has been as influential in Random Battles as Shimakaze.  Oh, she may not be the darling of the competitive scene, but I personally attribute her mischief and shenanigans for the reason Radar was introduced into the game in the first place.  She remains a monster at her tier (despite what the whiners will tell you).  The mere threat of her presence can paralyze a whole team with poop-to-the-brains, never mind if she actually hits someone with her fish.
 
The Ducks (Tiers 8 through 10)
These ships complete the "multipurpose ships" of the IJN destroyer line.  It's not until the Akizuki and the upcoming Kitakaze and Harugumo that we see the realization of what Wargaming implied back in November of 2016.  These ships all boast rapid-fire, 100mm guns, powerful torpedoes, good anti-aircraft firepower and the Torpedo Reload Booster along with a full complement of their other consumables.  They're not without their issues, though.  I want to rate these ships as being more powerful but they're only on the cusp of greatness and they gradually worsen as you climb in tiers.  First, there's a niggling detail:  Despite having impressive anti-aircraft firepower, they do not get access to the Defensive AA Fire consumable.  They could be amazing anti-aircraft picket ships but without this, their potential goes unrealized.

Next, Wargaming can't seem to make up their mind on what to do with their HE shells.  While rate of fire can solve many ills (and these ships have a rate of fire of between 160 and 500 rounds per minute), they are (currently) highly dependent upon deep commander skill builds of at least 14 points before they come into their own.  Without Inertial Fuse for HE Shells they cannot damage tier VIII+ enemy destroyers short of hitting their very small superstructures. What's more, these are large ships.  They take penetration damage from large caliber AP shells with alarming regularity which undermines the strength of their larger hit point pools.   Finally, they're slow and they have worse handling than some of the battleships at their tier.  Seriously.

All of these complaints aside, it's hilarious when one of them gets a chance to exercise its rate of fire against a vulnerable ships if you have the proper setup.  Destroyers melt.  Battleships cringe at the shell-rain that makes Minotaur and Worchester sit up and take notice. 
 
Kitakaze and Harugumo are still works in progress, so Wargaming has some time to find their footing with these new ships and maybe give Akizuki some much deserved love.  I repeat:  This is PREVIEW of the upcoming release of Kitakaze & Harugumo, ships Wargaming very kindly provided me. The statistics and performance discussed here are still being evaluated by Wargaming's developers and do not necessarily represent how the ships will appear when released.
 
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If you ever wondered where all of the guns on the "gunship" line went, they got glued onto Akizuki.  I like this ship a lot.  She's right on the cusp of greatness, IMO and probably the best of the bunch at the moment.  She just needs that little nudge to push her firmly into Gudbote territory.  Akizuki (and all of the ducks, really) are absolutely starved for commander skills.  19pts just doesn't cut it.  There are a lot of different builds and different playstyles for this ship.

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This is a soft upgrade of Akizuki, really.  The big bonus is the improvement to her torpedoes and the options that open up with her 6th upgrade slot which gives you the flexibility to try out even more builds.  You can ALMOST make her formidable AA boat.  Almost.

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Contrary to popular opinion, Harugumo isn't hot garbage.  She's not great.  She's definitely not competitive-worthy at this stage, but she's not terrible.  She's a much improved upgrade over Kitakaze but lordy, she has worse handling than Conqueror.
 
And there we go!  Now I have to hurry and get this published before Wargaming announces changes to all of the ducks and makes all of my hard work irrelevant.  Wait, what do you mean they're giving the 100mm guns 25mm of penetration and upping Kitakaze's speed?

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I would guess with planned speed buff and 1/4 HE pen, Kitakaze could end up getting a gudbote label.

 

Largely a good review though, as to be expected from LWM.

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Spoiler

*sees crying lolibotes*

 

d80.png

 

*weebing intensifies*

 

Also Shimakaze is supposed to be good? Well, I guess if you get the following MM

- no CVs

- literally no enemy DDs other than another 1 or 2 Shimas

- no hydro

- no radar

- no catapult planes

- no DD hunters

- no WASD hax unicums

then Shima may actually be a viable ship.

 

Seriously, now that Gearing has Fletcher torps is there ANY reason to play Shima? Like any at all? Gearing/Fletcher are better torp boats, her predecessors have better stealth, literally every other DD line she meets outguns her hard and she has no team utility that cannot be done better by another DD. Aka she's completely, utterly useless.

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"+ quad torpedo launcher replaced with sextuple launcher"

...mmm, are we certain it's a plus?

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39 minutes ago, Saiyko said:

Addendum. Her thingy about the umikaze reminded me about some chap I once met.

 

See https://wows-numbers.com/ship/4292753104,Umikaze/?order=battles__desc#leaderboard :Smile_trollface:

 

Waaah. Had that guy today in a random battle. One of the most annoying ppl ive ever seen! He F-spammed chat & minimap all game long. He was in Lyon tho, before anyone thinks I clubb at T2 :Smile_hiding:

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One cannot but agree with these assessments all the way. The IJN "Gunboats" tend to be quite MEH big time and the absence of DefAA in Akitsuki is indeed quite absurd (it could have been interchangeable with TRB, for example). WG does not seem to have any kind of concept in mind, as to what exactly should be the "characteristics" required of a gunboat and / or a Torpedoboat. So as a result both lines are an annoying mixed bag.:Smile_amazed:

 

For example, Shiratsuyu is quite a horrible gunboat, but with TRB it makes a decent TB though while its TB counterpart Akatsuki is definitely the better gunboat of the 2. As for Mutsuki vs Minekaze, oh well fair enough, Mutsuki does have the bigger, badder torps and rubbish guns. As for Hatsu, only a fool would actually try to duel other gunboats with it.. Ever, so that only makes it a rather unsatisfactory TB and in any case its gunpower is pretty much the same than Fubuki anyway.:Smile_ohmy:

 

Mayhap, if the distinction would be that the TB's (at tiers 7 and up) would have access to TRB (with possible exception of Akitsuki, who prolly badly needs it) with TB's being the stealthier but slightly slower DD's and MEH guns while the Gunboats should actually be faster, perhaps less stealthy but still passable, decent torps and MUCH improved gun reload. At the least this would make more sense to me than the current Mixed Salad.:cap_old:

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25 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

Seriously, now that Gearing has Fletcher torps is there ANY reason to play Shima? Like any at all?

The ability to (ineffectively) spam 20 km torps from safety will always get some people playing Shima.

4 minutes ago, RAHJAILARI said:

 As for Mutsuki vs Minekaze, oh well fair enough, Mutsuki does have the bigger, badder torps and rubbish guns.

Imo, Minekaze is just flat out better in both roles. Yes, Mutsuki gets 1 more km to play with and has harder hitting torps, but 3x2 beats 2x3 in flexibility and reload and the Mutsuki's 2 guns are utterly inadequate, while Minekaze's 4 guns, while not good, are at least not as hopeless, thanks to IJN ballistics.

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1 hour ago, AkosJaccik said:

"+ quad torpedo launcher replaced with sextuple launcher"

...mmm, are we certain it's a plus?

Well, it's debatable but can be defended. It depends a lot on how you want to use torps. Unlike Kagero and Yugumo, Akizuki gets a TRB that allows another launch in 5 seconds or something like that - it means that both your launchers can pretty much be combined into a single wall of skill. What it means is that with 6 torps per launcher you can - only a couple times per battle, but still - drop a wall of skill inferior only to Shimakaze: 12 torps salvo shouldn't be underestimated. 8 torps normally possible don't come even close. Also, the abysmal reload on 1x6 actually coincides pretty well with TRB consumable reload while 1x4 is much shorter but not short enough to be half the TRB reload...

 

So if you launch lots of single (1x4) spreads a lot in your Akizuki and tend to keep TRB for brown alert situations (in the "I always have torps ready!" fashion), 1x6 might be a nerf due to super-long reload. HOWEVER if your preferred way of using torps is to wait until both torps and TRB are off cooldown to surprise someone with 8 torp spread? Well, now at the same cooldown (since faster 1x4 cooldown is irrelevant if you need to wait for TRB to be back online) you get a 12 torp spread - which is a clear upgrade.

 

I personally thought it was a nerf originally, I'm somewhat conflicted now (and, of course, when you combine this launcher change with superior torpedo choices, Kitakaze's torp armament is clearly much superior to Akizuki regardless of whether 1x4 or 1x6 launcher is superior).

 

(for the purpose of comparison I assumed Kitakaze/Harugumo running 12km torps)

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12 minutes ago, eliastion said:

Well, it's debatable but can be defended. It depends a lot on how you want to use torps. Unlike Kagero and Yugumo, Akizuki gets a TRB that allows another launch in 5 seconds or something like that - it means that both your launchers can pretty much be combined into a single wall of skill. What it means is that with 6 torps per launcher you can - only a couple times per battle, but still - drop a wall of skill inferior only to Shimakaze: 12 torps salvo shouldn't be underestimated. 8 torps normally possible don't come even close. Also, the abysmal reload on 1x6 actually coincides pretty well with TRB consumable reload while 1x4 is much shorter but not short enough to be half the TRB reload...

Is the 3 seconds difference between duck's 5s reload and Kagero/Yuugumo 8s reload this game changing? Also, Ichiban has 5 seconds torp reload and 16 torps, so... technically TRB Shiratsuyu and Kagero can have larger walls of skill and Yuugumo can have a larger wall of skill, with the same 12 km torps (or 8 km for that matter).

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1 hour ago, Riselotte said:

Yuugumo can have a larger wall of skill, with the same 12 km torps (or 8 km for that matter).

 

Glorious F3s with TRB :cap_haloween:

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Sub_Octavian

they are competitive, but, as I said many times, they have become more skill-dependent. Yes, many players adapted, and it's nice to see even well-performing Akatsukis in Ranked. However, large number of players seem to play in old style, lowering ships avg. stats. 

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4 hours ago, El2aZeR said:
  Reveal hidden contents

*sees crying lolibotes*

 

d80.png

 

*weebing intensifies*

 

Also Shimakaze is supposed to be good? Well, I guess if you get the following MM

- no CVs

- literally no enemy DDs other than another 1 or 2 Shimas

- no hydro

- no radar

- no catapult planes

- no DD hunters

- no WASD hax unicums

then Shima may actually be a viable ship.

 

Seriously, now that Gearing has Fletcher torps is there ANY reason to play Shima? Like any at all? Gearing/Fletcher are better torp boats, her predecessors have better stealth, literally every other DD line she meets outguns her hard and she has no team utility that cannot be done better by another DD. Aka she's completely, utterly useless.

Sorry mate, but I gotta break a lance for her. She is less versatile, yes, but she can perform in any mm, provided one finds the right balance between agression and caution. We are talking about a ship with enough theoretical dpm to delete a Kurfürst every 45 seconds. And that is without ar kicking in. 

 

Challenging to play? Well, yes. Still a god of death when played correctly? Definitely. 

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22 minutes ago, dCK_Ad_Hominem said:

We are talking about a ship with enough theoretical dpm to delete a Kurfürst every 45 seconds.

 

And no way to apply it if the enemy just shows the smallest amount of common sense. Or if anything comes hunting your way.

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Hatsuharu is still my fav, it's the only small/manoeuvrable IJN destroyer with modern weapons and good AA.

 

Still waiting for a 5 gun Nenohi premium. :cap_cool:

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I don't want to badmouth mouse's work (that's some impressive work done right there), but tfw it's only the silverlines and not (for example:Smile_trollface:) Kamikaze. :Smile_sad:

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About the Shiratsuyu I can't help but think it was balanced around having both TRB and Smoke cause it only beats the Akatsuki in like 3 criteria, stealth, turning circle and gun range all the other stats are worse, both guns and torps are worse as the range is useless, and as there are loads of CVs at tier 7 you basically have to play with smoke so you are out run'ed, out gunned and out torped... even the AA is worse!

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6 hours ago, Riselotte said:

Is the 3 seconds difference between duck's 5s reload and Kagero/Yuugumo 8s reload this game changing? Also, Ichiban has 5 seconds torp reload and 16 torps, so... technically TRB Shiratsuyu and Kagero can have larger walls of skill and Yuugumo can have a larger wall of skill, with the same 12 km torps (or 8 km for that matter).

Yes, it is. Don't take me wrong, Kagero and Yugumo have powerful TRB but these additional couple seconds do make a difference. When Akizuki does her 1*4*2 thing, it still barely feels like a single wall of skill. When Kagero or Yugumo do their thing with their version of TRB, you end up with two waves. It's extremely obvious on the receiving end in a DD or nimble cruiser - with a torp wave douled with the inferior TRB, you actually dodge one wave and then the other one instead of trying to squeeze through both at once.

 

Anyway, I'm not sure what's your point - I never said that Kitakaze is going to be a better torpboat than Yugumo. Last time I checked, we were talking about whether 1*6 is an upgrade over 1*4 in context of having Akizuki's TRB. I mean, I did say "second only to Shimakaze" (the effect of being focused on t8-10) but that it's pretty clear that the point of the post was "big torpedo wave", right?

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3 minutes ago, eliastion said:

Yes, it is. Don't take me wrong, Kagero and Yugumo have powerful TRB but these additional couple seconds do make a difference. When Akizuki does her 1*4*2 thing, it still barely feels like a single wall of skill. When Kagero or Yugumo do their thing with their version of TRB, you end up with two waves. It's extremely obvious on the receiving end in a DD or nimble cruiser - with a torp wave douled with the inferior TRB, you actually dodge one wave and then the other one instead of trying to squeeze through both at once.

 

Anyway, I'm not sure what's your point - I never said that Kitakaze is going to be a better torpboat than Yugumo. Last time I checked, we were talking about whether 1*6 is an upgrade over 1*4 in context of having Akizuki's TRB. I mean, I did say "second only to Shimakaze" (the effect of being focused on t8-10) but that it's pretty clear that the point of the post was "big torpedo wave", right?

My point was, to ask whether the 3 seconds make a difference. I don't play Kagero with TRB (nor my Harekaze), don't have a Yuugumo and Shiratsuyu has 5 seconds. So I have not much experience with what 8 second TRB is like.

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I think Shimakaze still gives a slightly underwhelming impression compared to what the other tier 10 DDs are capable of (especially Yueyang that is a dangerous torpedo boat AND can knife fight better than Shimakaze because it's a pseudo-Gearing), but the IJN torpedo boat play style is what keeps me at using her. The fact that her guns are only "okay" limits their use to more opportunistic use which gives me more excuses to not use them. Often times you are better off running away or quietly spot for the others in the open, rather than smoking up to fire or fight other DDs without relying on others. Knife fighting is so stressful and I'd rather enjoy most of my time spotting, capping and torping... and then I fire my guns when I see an easy prey when it's worth opening up and when I can get away with it without getting totally crippled or killed.

 

My only complaint really is that her 12km torps could use a range increase to 14-16km (Frustrating when you have to sit so much out of radar range and when you spot the enemies as you try to torp them, they will often turn tail and run because you spotting is actually putting them under heavy fire and then you don't get any damage in.)  or that the 20km ones were less useless. (Better concealment anyone? Or maybe better reload, or maybe speed? Something, please!) I miss the 16km range from Gearing...

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