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__Helmut_Kohl__

420 mm G.Kurfüst: correct penetration

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I have seen the penetration graphs in comparison to the 406mm, where the 420mm are supposed to only have better penetration at very long distances.

 

But the numbers from wowsft.com show an overall better penetration on the 420mm:

 

gk.jpg.5d6459c4e9254bb0b62389afc25dd7ec.jpg

 

The difference is is actually similar to the advantage that the Iowa has over the North Carolina, which is especially important in medium range engagements.

 

So which statement is now correct about the 420 mm penetration?

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It's probably correct, but it doesn't  still make sense imho, you are a close range ship, and having a faster reload is usually the difference between death and living, and at less than 15 kms the difference in penetration doesn't  make worth it

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9 minutes ago, Flavio1997 said:

It's probably correct, but it doesn't  still make sense imho, you are a close range ship, and having a faster reload is usually the difference between death and living, and at less than 15 kms the difference in penetration doesn't  make worth it

 

Even a Kurfürst will actually take most of the shots at medium range (15 km) or even more, since you don't always have close targets available.

(Where the penetration counts.)

 

When you finally push into someone and get really close, you will usually only get one salvo at the right citadel angle anyway.

(Where the alpha damage counts.)

 

So the 406 mm only seem really advantageous, if you suicide-push into multiple targets, or if you try to out-DPM an angled target.

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The question is who is using what formula for penetration.

 

The formula published here on the forum and reddit is a close match to what WG uses, but there are still differences. The fitting tool does not say what formula is used.

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5 minutes ago, _Helmut_Kohl_ said:

 

Even a Kurfürst will actually take most of the shots at medium range (15 km) or even more, since you don't always have close targets available.

(Where the penetration counts.)

 

When you finally push into someone and get really close, you will usually only get one salvo at the right citadel angle anyway.

(Where the alpha damage counts.)

 

So the 406 mm only seem really advantageous, if you suicide-push into multiple targets.

That si correct until you factor in one thing: " german accuracy". That's  the reason why i still prefer the 406. You are not the kind of bb that blap targhet, you rather follow the "throw enough  crap at the wall..." philosophy 

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12 minutes ago, _Helmut_Kohl_ said:

So the 406 mm only seem really advantageous, if you suicide-push into multiple targets, or if you try to out-DPM an angled target.

This is not my experience at all.
The faster reload comes useful all the time. If you keep the guns singing the DPM difference is hefty.

You rightly point out that the "ideal citadel shot" is usually matter of one salvo. But what if the enemy presents the citadel and you still have 2 seconds of the reload left?

I would stick with the better ROF and better DPM either way.

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2 minutes ago, Blixies said:

You rightly point out that the "ideal citadel shot" is usually matter of one salvo. But what if the enemy presents the citadel and you still have 2 seconds of the reload left?

 

In these "jousting" situations you just need to hold your shot and manage your guns correctly.

 

But for occasional broadsides and the accuracy problem that @Flavio1997 pointed out, a better reload is ofc nice.

It is one of the reasons why Republique is fun...

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6 minutes ago, _Helmut_Kohl_ said:

 

In these "jousting" situations you just need to hold your shot and manage your guns correctly.

 

But for occasional broadsides and the accuracy problem that @Flavio1997 pointed out, a better reload is ofc nice.

It is one of the reasons why Republique is fun...

My point was you "have to hold the shot" (because you're still reloading) and you miss the citadel opportunity. Two seconds can be (and indeed were in my own personal experience) enough time for the enemy ship to create angle which is no longer optimal.

Not talking about jousting either (where the 406 have clear advantage), just the enemy turning away to disengage for example.

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3 minutes ago, Blixies said:

My point was you "have to hold the shot" (because you're still reloading) and you miss the citadel opportunity. 

 

As I said between the lines, that would have been mismanagement from your side then, if it is not an unexpected broadside.

 

Quote

Not talking about jousting either (where the 406 have clear advantage)

 

That is exactly the situation where the 420 mm with the higher alpha damage have the advantage.

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41 minutes ago, _Helmut_Kohl_ said:

wowsft.com

At least their dispersion numbers vary massively from what we have shown to us in-game, so I'm not sure how reliable any other numbers they might have are

 

When you compare it to this:

https://mustanghx.github.io/ship_ap_calculator/

which I was linked to by support a long long time ago, the only matching thing is impact angle. Shell flight time in wowsft is slightly longer, penetration is lower (plus it looks like wowsft gives you data only on penetrating vertical plates)

 

So are those values correct? Probably not

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Just now, _Helmut_Kohl_ said:

 

As I said between the lines, that would have been mismanagement from your side then, if it is not an unexpected broadside.

Mismanagement if you use 420s, but no problem with 406 in this particular scenario - as you get to shoot two salvos, instead of waiting patiently for the one good salvo. The 406s still win, what is your point?

 

 

5 minutes ago, _Helmut_Kohl_ said:

That is exactly the situation where the 420 mm with the higher alpha damage have the advantage.

Yes, if you only take the first salvo into account. What if the brawl lasts more than that one salvo? When two Kurfursts brawl, my money would be always on the one with 406s.

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51 minutes ago, Blixies said:

---

 

You largely exaggerate that 2.5 second (with Upgrade) difference mate.

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1 hour ago, wilkatis_LV said:

When you compare it to this:

https://mustanghx.github.io/ship_ap_calculator/

which I was linked to by support a long long time ago, the only matching thing is impact angle. Shell flight time in wowsft is slightly longer, penetration is lower (plus it looks like wowsft gives you data only on penetrating vertical plates)

 

So are those values correct? Probably not

 

Actually, that side confirms the wowsft.com values as correct for comparison.

 

While the overall penetration is 5-10mm higher, the difference is exactly the same, and the 420mm have more penetration at all distances.

 

 

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7 minutes ago, _Helmut_Kohl_ said:

 

You largely exaggerate that 2.5 second (with Upgrade) difference mate.

I just (purposefully) gave an example where the rather small difference matters.

I'm not claiming that the 406s are vastly superior to 420s, I just heavily prefer them, because my own personal experience suits the playstyle of the 406s much more.

I also like the fact that the faster reload differentiates the GK from the other BBs (excluding Republique as I have 0 experience with it).

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My recommendation is previous threads still stand. 

 

406mm guns for FdG

420mm guns for GK

 

For GK, mid range alpha is key. Taking opportunistic shots when they present themselves is one or the defining factors for the floating bunker playstyle of GK

 

FdG is just an upsized Bismarck, retaining much of the great agility and turret traverse of its predecessor making close range engagements much more comfortable. Shaving off 4 seconds from the reload helps compensate for only 8 guns with mediocre accuracy.

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So what is conclusion for this caliber comparison?

 

One friend of mine told me that 406 are better because they penetrate better at close-mid range, so its recommended because Kurfurst is a brawler after all.

I got mine last week but I didnt play it yet exept 1 round on Training.

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5 minutes ago, Hades_warrior said:

So what is conclusion for this caliber comparison?

 

It is a flavor thing. 

Decide if you want slightly faster reload or slightly higher salvo-damage and penetration.

 

Quote

One friend of mine told me that 406 are better because they penetrate better at close-mid range, so its recommended because Kurfurst is a brawler after all.

 

420 have higher penetration at all ranges.

But a quicker reload can help, especially if you brawl multiple ships.

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Just now, Hades_warrior said:

So what is conclusion for this caliber comparison?

 

One friend of mine told me that 406 are better because they penetrate better at close-mid range, so its recommended because Kurfurst is a brawler after all.

Its always been up in the air and a matter of preference. 406s have better DPM than 420s and 420s have higher alpha. This two differing strengths alone will split the fanbase on whats actually better. Then its the matter of different. Muzzle velocities, rate of overpens and how much 420s better pen actually matters.

 

Personally I think 420s has better pen than 406s at any range, but difference in my eyes is only minimal and rather insignificant.

 

For me its only a matter of whether alpha or dpm is more important.

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Secondaries specc'd Kurfurst, I'd say definately 406s as you ideally want to be 11km away from your nearest target and that extra salvo you might squeeze from your guns can be the diffference between life and death.

If you play more the middle to long range BB then you could make a case for the better pen and alpha of the 420s I guess.

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Yea, DPM is what is important to many of us. Well, the time will tell what will I use, and of course testings.

I dont like to be a sniper on 20+ km range with brawling ships. Something drag me in closer ranges always.

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6 minutes ago, Hades_warrior said:

I dont like to be a sniper on 20+ km range with brawling ships. Something drag me in closer ranges always.

 

That has nothing to do with the choice between 406 and 420.

 

Like @Affeks said, just ask yourself if you want faster reload or higher damage per shot.

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Wait... the 420 shells have shorter flight time over 5 km? I never knew - the initial muzzle speed is very very misleading.
I might give them another try after all, it's been quite long I have used the 420s.

Thanks for this thread @_Helmut_Kohl_. It made me think, which is always good.

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23 minutes ago, Hades_warrior said:

Yea, DPM is what is important to many of us. Well, the time will tell what will I use, and of course testings.

I dont like to be a sniper on 20+ km range with brawling ships. Something drag me in closer ranges always.

Higher alpha has many uses over higher DPM in close range. Especially in BB brawls and jousting. Just saying.

 

Again its a matter of preference.

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2 hours ago, Hades_warrior said:

So what is conclusion for this caliber comparison?

 

One friend of mine told me that 406 are better because they penetrate better at close-mid range, so its recommended because Kurfurst is a brawler after all.

I got mine last week but I didnt play it yet exept 1 round on Training.

I use 420 mm. Reason: size matters. It's always about the size :Smile_trollface: 

 

 

Yes, I'm actually a very rational person. Just not when choosing gun calibre :Smile_Default:

 

 

Take this post with as much salt as you like :fish_aqua:

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2 hours ago, Blixies said:

Wait... the 420 shells have shorter flight time over 5 km? I never knew - the initial muzzle speed is very very misleading.
I might give them another try after all, it's been quite long I have used the 420s.

Thanks for this thread @_Helmut_Kohl_. It made me think, which is always good.

That's to do with shells drag and inertia. Heavier (bigger) simply don't lose their velocity as fast as lighter shells, and their air drag values may (and probably do) vary

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