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Do the French cruisers need a concealment buff?

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Do the French cruisers, especially the Henri IV, need a buff in your opinion? They are the least team oriented cruisers in the game - they have very limited consumable utility (i.e. no radar), they have low dpm, and terrible concealment (especially at tier X). With a full concealment build the Henri IV sits at 12.7 km detwxtion range. I feel that if it were buffed to 10.8 km, or even 11.-something, the ship can start to shine by allowing us to contest caps. It's weird that the Henri IV is supposed to fulfill a similar role to the Zao, and yet it has worse concealment, worse dpm, worse torp range, worse number of torps, and the same conaumables as a Zao. I might be a tad biased, because my french cruiser performance ia by far my worst among all the warships I've played, so I would love to hear your opinions, guys.

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Hm. Most Guys I know,  use no Concealment Modul but Double rudershift on Henri. Same with the T9, which i  want to try also. In the  end the are long range and high Speed HE Spammers, not Stealth Supporters.  More like a High Tier  Schtorsch. 

 

Some like these playstyle, others dont.  

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I really don't understand people playing double rudder. What makes Henri not agile isn't the rudder shift, it's the turn radius and the speed bleed when turning. However the speed boost correct the second issue.

 

12.7 concealment is quite enough. I think Henri would need more something like one more torpedo tube, longer torpedo range, and a bit more DPM. However I still think this ship is quite ok as long as you keep it for random gameplay. Going 44 knots can be really strong in endgame, when there are few enemies and you want to catch them one by one and get some caps.

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10 minutes ago, ShinGetsu said:

I really don't understand people playing double rudder. What makes Henri not agile isn't the rudder shift, it's the turn radius and the speed bleed when turning. However the speed boost correct the second issue.

 

 I think its not only to make the ship more agile. It is also because ( as im told) these ships lose rudder quite often while kiting. And you get -80 % repair time from modul also. 

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17 minutes ago, belalugosisdead said:

 I think its not only to make the ship more agile. It is also because ( as im told) these ships lose rudder quite often while kiting. And you get -80 % repair time from modul also. 

Henri doesn't have that issue at all.

It's very true in Martel, and even more with Saint Louis, but Henri rudder is as strong as a battleship's.

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19 minutes ago, ShinGetsu said:

but Henri rudder is as strong as a battleship's.

Hopefully not IJN BBs :Smile_trollface:

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16 minutes ago, ShinGetsu said:

Henri doesn't have that issue at all.

It's very true in Martel, and even more with Saint Louis, but Henri rudder is as strong as a battleship's.

 

I will See soon.. i finished Martel, which  is fun to play, but often in T10.   And will soon grind  St. Louis after im done with Donskoi. :-)

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5 hours ago, ShinGetsu said:

I really don't understand people playing double rudder. What makes Henri not agile isn't the rudder shift, it's the turn radius and the speed bleed when turning. However the speed boost correct the second issue.

 

12.7 concealment is quite enough. I think Henri would need more something like one more torpedo tube, longer torpedo range, and a bit more DPM. However I still think this ship is quite ok as long as you keep it for random gameplay. Going 44 knots can be really strong in endgame, when there are few enemies and you want to catch them one by one and get some caps.

 

It just works better for me tgan the concealment build. 

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Double rudder is a waste imo. Propulsion 2 and rudder 3 is the way to go if you decide to give up concealment.

 

I do agree that Henri needs a buff. The other french cruisers are fine as far as numbers go, but I do agree that their teamplay utility is rather lacking.

 

However I dont think concealment is what would make Henri worth playing, the Legendary module isnt enough either. Its tankiness is way to bad to justify the large ship size and terrible concealment. Superstructure is huge and fore and aft ends only 25mm.

 

Henri is my tier 10 Cruiser with the highest avg damage, but also worst avg WR by quite the margin.

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On 17/07/2018 at 8:36 AM, ShinGetsu said:

I really don't understand people playing double rudder. What makes Henri not agile isn't the rudder shift, it's the turn radius and the speed bleed when turning. However the speed boost correct the second issue.

 

12.7 concealment is quite enough. I think Henri would need more something like one more torpedo tube, longer torpedo range, and a bit more DPM. However I still think this ship is quite ok as long as you keep it for random gameplay. Going 44 knots can be really strong in endgame, when there are few enemies and you want to catch them one by one and get some caps.

 

Agreed, from tVIII all you need is to max-out your gun range and use engine boost to dodge return fire.

 

They aren't very well suited for close range but from id to long they are hard to beat.

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Sad to see the Emile Bertin get hit with the nerf bat in the last update, lovely ship, great for hunting down DD's and my favourite French cruiser so far.

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2 hours ago, Maihon said:

Sad to see the Emile Bertin get hit with the nerf bat in the last update, lovely ship, great for hunting down DD's and my favourite French cruiser so far.

Be honest and admit she deserved it. Because it has been a long time since  such a nerf has been more deserved. 

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21 hours ago, Maihon said:

Sad to see the Emile Bertin get hit with the nerf bat in the last update, lovely ship, great for hunting down DD's and my favourite French cruiser so far.

Charles martel and st louis are going to get nerfed too ( reload from 10 to 12 secs, but you earn the reload booster gimmick )

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I don't feel it was that deserved, but then I only had a short time to use her pre-nerf, it was however very pleasant to occasionally be able to return a small portion of the love that DD's so freely shower us with.

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17 hours ago, Flavio1997 said:

Charles martel and st louis are going to get nerfed too ( reload from 10 to 12 secs, but you earn the reload booster gimmick )

Your kidding me? I thought it was originally 12 and was thankfully buffed to 10. Now it's going back to 12!

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On 31/07/2018 at 3:59 PM, Merlin851526 said:

Your kidding me? I thought it was originally 12 and was thankfully buffed to 10. Now it's going back to 12!

 

yeah they are nerfing two ships for am gimmick when they could of given them more fire power (so an extra turret) better mobility, more armour more hp etc. (not all of these things maybe one or two of them).

 

wargayming at it's finest.

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Henry is a high skill based ship, you need to know and have played a lot to get it's role to full effectivness. It is hard to tell whether it does need a buff or not, but in any case, concealment is not the issue. I hated Henry 3 months ago (for the lack of teamplaying abilities), and prefered Zao all the way, since on paper Zao has better conecalment, better torps, better DMP and better arcs. Not to mention it has better armor and it is smaller so in all traditional Cruiser gameplay mechanics Henry is a bad ship to begin with.

But Henry is as unique of a crusier as Khaba for a DD.  It should and HAS to be played differently. All of you who got the ship first noticed how fast you die to BBs once you are closer than 14km and beeing focussed. I did that too, but that is not how the ship works. Like it or not you do not want to get closer than 14km unless you know what lies ahead (lategame). Therefore I can understand players not using concealment in the first place. I myself adore the legendary which leaves me with 15.5km concealment, but buffs my DPM to the extent of a... Zao :P 

I cannot answer you whether the ship needs a Buff or not, or what kind of Buff it needs, but I can tell you how you might play it to be succesfull in it. And be beneficial for your team on top! Leaderboard Henry to begin with:

image.thumb.png.b214891f02801f245ebc41a9ce5f0903.png

Misconceptions about Henry. 
A)You snipe at ranges you are selfish damagefarmer. If played wrong this is true. E.g. if most of your team lemmings one side (e.g. Okinawa C), and you just play a 'Zao' with your ship, sticking with your team, farming some damage from back lines while the other flank is getting crushed, and in the end you have 30k damage dealt without taking any in return (since your team was tanking), then yes, you are as bad as 1-line Yamato snipers with Survavibility expert. 
What you should do instead is to flank. Go 1-line, 10-line. Get them from the side. Use your arcs to get stationary ships out of cover (perky DMs, Worcesters). Also important detail, they cannot shoot back at you, even if you are spotted. You are just annoying and be proud on it. Due to your speed you can be at any flank, and you can support every flank from the middle (with mine 20.6km range, but 19.1 do it aswell). You are the furthest ship behind often, but it does not mean you are useless in terms of gameplay.
One of the best examples I can give is on Mountain range, spawning north right, I just try go full speed 10-line to J1. If I get there we won the flank, since from there I shoot the positions where usually a moskva or a DM sit and tank. I got Broadside BB positions from the south C cap, this move, isolating myself from the team, just wins you the flank. And with the speed (and range) you are still back in the game really fast.
B)Live to fight another day. That might be a bit selfish indeed, but the main job of a cruiser is to be able to assist/damage without taking any. You are used on other cruisers to trade often (Zao get close, gets 2 volleys of on a dd, kites away and does it's best surviving; Hindenburg going in to brawl as last breath to change game,...). Henry does not have any circumstances where he trades. Your only job is to farm damage. It is a boring gameplay, but that does not make it a bad one. If you die in Henry before the endgame starts you missplayed. I had to leard that surviving is the main key, and with that I often managed to overcome overconfident random players in a losing situation. That is btw the main reason for the high damage numbers. Because you live to the end, that is not a selfish gameplay, that is your job in the ship. Your best way to assist your team is by ignoring them and playing for yourself most of the time.

And certain features for the Henry. It kites like a god. With the speed (and some spaced armor) you can survive a lot of shells. Every 3rd of my games I tank 2.5-3 Mill Potential damage. That does not tell much, but it is the amount of half of their team trying to get me, since I am on a position they dont want to have me in. A lure the attention away from my team that way. How to get that is easy, I got 15.5km concealment and I am fine beeing spotted all the time (that is why I do not think concealment Buff will improve anything), they spot me and start shooting usually. Then the kiting begins, while I farm them. Seldom teams have patience not to shoot a Henry and reveal their positions. 
Next feature is you have to think ahead, you are fast and you can switch flanks (unlike a Zao that is bound to the flank it is right now). You can multitask. Switch positions, shoot different stationary targets on different end of the map. Almost like Arty from WOT. And final thing is, you need to be aware of the whole map. E.g. I noticed an enemy Zao not beeing spotted for 2 mins when I pushed a flank (pushing 3 of their BBs away^^). Conclusion, turn out and run. At 13km the Zao then shot me but I was facing away already and moved to another position while Zao was out of the game. If I would not have noticed such details the Zao would have melted me together with their BBs. 
With this I wanted to show some insight into Henry gameplay (for randoms, I don't consider this ship to be viable for ranked), it needs a lot of skills, knowing where the enemies go, where the dds are (whether you are safe from torps on your solo tour). So you can 'ignore' the team and do your stuff without hurting it (by losing your ship). This ship is very specific and if we talk about potential I do not even know whether it does need a buff. I consider the legendary upgrade to be one, also the Reload Booster is very welcome. It is just a gimmick ship which you have to master on it's own. As said, I hated it 3 months ago 

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On 17/07/2018 at 8:33 AM, belalugosisdead said:

Hm. Most Guys I know,  use no Concealment Modul but Double rudershift on Henri. Same with the T9, which i  want to try also. In the  end the are long range and high Speed HE Spammers, not Stealth Supporters.  More like a High Tier  Schtorsch. 

 

Some like these playstyle, others dont.  

 

Exact. I play the tIX and geared it for long range gunnery, 21.5 km, those Cruisers are not close range brawlers, in terms of armour and DPM they'll loose more often than they would win but gun range and maneuvrability allow them to stay at fire range of other Cruisers and dodge the lowest velocity shells, great for flushing those radar campers out of their spots.

 

You have to look out for the BB who will love to citadel you, but when in boost, most of the time you can dodge their fire at long range, don't even think about doing it closer than 18 km...

 

If you need to get closer (to contest a cap with other ships), better use concealment as much as possible.

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