How to nerf Kronshtadt so its guns can be buffed?

[Affeks]

Current Kronshtadt has battleship dispersion patterns despite not having anywhere near the effectiveness of one. 

 

Have an example of how bad this dispersion is

Yeah its for some reason worse than an Iowa, and this is despite lacking BB overmatch and high alpha. I could go into more details, but if you cant see whats wrong with this image I dont know how to convince you otherwise.

 

I do however understand why WG cant just buff Kronshtadt in its current form. It is just way to tanky to have guns with actual effectiveness. 

 

So I wonder whats a fair buff in exchange for dispersion patterns closer to a Graf Spee?

 

An HP nerf to around 61k seems fair to me (this would use a normal BB HP calculation as opposed to the middleground calculation used by Stalingrad and current Kronshtadt). Though I would want more feedback.

 

Current Kronshtadt is way too much of a slotmachine. Waiting or positioning for a broadside just to have BB dispersion shoot for the clouds is not fun. Its a special kind of tank currently, yet tanking isnt really rewarding at all.

[HaachamaShipping]

Is this with or without Iowa's access to artillery plotting room?

[wilkatis_LV]

4 minutes ago, Riselotte said:

Is this with or without Iowa's access to artillery plotting room?

Kind of irrelevant seeing how it doesn't affect dispersion of main batteries

[HaachamaShipping]

2 minutes ago, wilkatis_LV said:

Kind of irrelevant seeing how it doesn't affect dispersion of main batteries

Quote

Artillery Plotting Room Modification 2: 

Increases the firing accuracy of the main battery:

-11% to maximum dispersion of main battery.

Really?

[wilkatis_LV]

3 minutes ago, Riselotte said:

Really?

Oh, mod 2 in the 6th slot. I thought of mod 1 in the 3rd. That's why you should always add the number to it

[Affeks]

15 minutes ago, Riselotte said:

Is this with or without Iowa's access to artillery plotting room?

Both ships have all available accuracy modifiers in that graph.

 

Without the mod Iowa still has half a percentage better hit rate at 10km, but 0.16% worse at 18km actually. 

[ColonelPete]

1 hour ago, Affeks said:

Current Kronshtadt has battleship dispersion patterns despite not having anywhere near the effectiveness of one. 

 

Have an example of how bad this dispersion is

Yeah its for some reason worse than an Iowa, and this is despite lacking BB overmatch and high alpha. I could go into more details, but if you cant see whats wrong with this image I dont know how to convince you otherwise.

 

I do however understand why WG cant just buff Kronshtadt in its current form. It is just way to tanky to have guns with actual effectiveness. 

 

So I wonder whats a fair buff in exchange for dispersion patterns closer to a Graf Spee?

 

An HP nerf to around 61k seems fair to me (this would use a normal BB HP calculation as opposed to the middleground calculation used by Stalingrad and current Kronshtadt). Though I would want more feedback.

 

Current Kronshtadt is way too much of a slotmachine. Waiting or positioning for a broadside just to have BB dispersion shoot for the clouds is not fun. Its a special kind of tank currently, yet tanking isnt really rewarding at all.

These a theoretical numbers.

 

This are practical numbers:

[Affeks]

8 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

These a theoretical numbers.

 

This are practical numbers:

Thats the reason I want this thing to be nerfed in return for better guns, because I know the ship is adequate in randoms. 

 

Whenever I play Kronshtadt no one ever bothers to focus me and BBs sail broadside for minutes on end. If this thing was a bit squishier maybe people would focus it and if it had more consistent damage output maybe people would treat it like an actual threat? 

 

I can tell you my percentage damage dealt is much higher vs. BBs than cruisers or DDs compared to Missouri or Iowa where overmatch lets me consistently deal damage to cruisers and arcing shells have a higher chance to detonate in DDs. So those "practical" numbers might be skewed for all we know. Also the fact that Kronshtadt has higher tanking average is more proof than anything of these stats being skewed.

[Exocet6951]

Here's a brilliant step by step plan how to do that:

1. Turn it into a BB
2. Buff bow armor and dispersion so it performs as a battlecruiser

 

Tadaa !

 

[Affeks]

21 minutes ago, Exocet6951 said:

Here's a brilliant step by step plan how to do that:

1. Turn it into a BB
2. Buff bow armor and dispersion so it performs as a battlecruiser

 

Tadaa !

 

But that would spoil the fun

[VC381]

Where did you get the graph? Own testing?

 

I'm not saying I don't believe you, but I:

 

a) always assumed Kronshtadt had Graf Spee style dispersion already

b) feel from my limited experience with Kronshtadt so far that it is a very accurate ship. I have Iowa as well, which is deliciously accurate for a BB, but Kronshtadt to me does not feel like a lottery in the slightest. I've been averaging more citadels per game than Iowa that's for sure.

 

The trouble is, a ship like Kronshtadt can very easily get out of hand if you make one aspect too strong. A cruiser that can reliably citadel T10 BBs at close to max range, that already does it fairly reliably, getting even better at it? I mean, sure, I would love you to make my railguns laser guided on top of how good they already are, but you'll need to take away more than 10k HP for me to not feel like I need a shower after every game in the thing. If you want Graf Speed dispersion, you need to lose that 10k HP, reload to 20s and probably nerf the HE as well. And it will still perform like an utter boss in randoms.

[ColonelPete]

Russian site, calculated theoretical values, not empirical server data.

 

http://proships.ru/stat/ships/1133,157/

[Affeks]

2 hours ago, VC381 said:

Where did you get the graph? Own testing?

 

I'm not saying I don't believe you, but I:

 

a) always assumed Kronshtadt had Graf Spee style dispersion already

b) feel from my limited experience with Kronshtadt so far that it is a very accurate ship. I have Iowa as well, which is deliciously accurate for a BB, but Kronshtadt to me does not feel like a lottery in the slightest. I've been averaging more citadels per game than Iowa that's for sure.

 

The trouble is, a ship like Kronshtadt can very easily get out of hand if you make one aspect too strong. A cruiser that can reliably citadel T10 BBs at close to max range, that already does it fairly reliably, getting even better at it? I mean, sure, I would love you to make my railguns laser guided on top of how good they already are, but you'll need to take away more than 10k HP for me to not feel like I need a shower after every game in the thing. If you want Graf Speed dispersion, you need to lose that 10k HP, reload to 20s and probably nerf the HE as well. And it will still perform like an utter boss in randoms.

That specific graph is from Proships, but all of the available sites confirm this.

This is what a comparison between Graf and Kronshtadt looks like.  Not a big deal at close range, but not at long.

 

Comparison of Kronshtadt, Colorado and Graf Spee's main battery. Min V dispersion is "usually" associated with projectile speed, but even then H Dispersion is worse than even Colorado. 

Not saying Kronshtadt is any more of a lottery than a slightly over average accurate BB, but thats not really called for when Kronshtadt is already so reliant on a perfect broadside. 

 

By the way you will have an very hard time citadelling any BB over 12km away. While pen is over 450mm at 18km, practically most targets will be angled enough that the practical armor is much higher. Iowa has a solid 100mm better pen at 10km and 67mm at 18km which makes a lot of difference considering most BB belts are within the 300-400mm range.

 

Nerfing reload down to 20 seconds sounds fair too. Puts it in line with Stalingrad and Alaska.

[_DeathWing_]

Have to say that dispersion on this ship is really frustrating sometimes. 

[VC381]

So what are the percentages in that graph? Proportion of shells within a certain area at each range?

 

As for penetration, Kronshtadt is a cruiser and has for more freedom and ability to position accordingly. BBs might angle against you in a 1v1 scenario but overall they usually have other priorities and I've had no shortage of perfect broadsides and max range citadels on BBs. The thing that makes the ship feel consistent for me is that I've had citadels on consecutive salvos, not one blap one derp that's so common with BBs.

 

I'm more worried about the impact on other cruisers if Kronshtadt is made more accurate.

[VeryHonarbrah]

But why are even asking to change the ships suv for gun stats, the ship has not been played enough for it to be changed so far wg wise. If we do look at its stats so far its got the highest avrg xp of any t9 bb or cruiser, 3rd highest damage of any t9 bb or cruiser and highest wr. I have played it and I find it very enjoyable.

[Affeks]

5 hours ago, VC381 said:

I'm more worried about the impact on other cruisers if Kronshtadt is made more accurate.

Cruisers (as well as BBs and DDs) are more reliably punished for their mistakes and Kronshtadts have to be more selective in where and when they fire (in case of nerf to RoF) or be more strategic with their positioning more akin to normal cruisers (in case of surv nerf). So all in all less focus on bootleg BB tanking and rng coinflips and more reliable reward for good plays and punishement for mistakes made.

 

Exactly what the ship needs imo

 

5 hours ago, VeryHonarbrah said:

But why are even asking to change the ships suv for gun stats, the ship has not been played enough for it to be changed so far wg wise. If we do look at its stats so far its got the highest avrg xp of any t9 bb or cruiser, 3rd highest damage of any t9 bb or cruiser and highest wr. I have played it and I find it very enjoyable.

Server/global stats are one thing and has already been discussed.

 

Personally I dont find a dumbed down cruiser enjoyable at all, and I cant imagine how others can enjoy it either. Positioning smartly and having trigger discipline is more often than not rewarded with overpens and/or straddles. 

 

Not saying the ship is a weak performer in randoms, but that doesnt make it rewarding to play. It just takes whats annoying about Graf Spee and multiplies it by an order of magnitude (and removes the torps as an added bonus).

[MoveZig]

On 7/16/2018 at 8:15 PM, Affeks said:

Not saying the ship is a weak performer in randoms, but that doesnt make it rewarding to play. It just takes whats annoying about Graf Spee and multiplies it by an order of magnitude (and removes the torps as an added bonus).

 

What I hate about GS is the low ROF and small salvos, and the random cits you can take through the deck. Kron has a much higher ROF and is generally safe from cits as long as you angle enough. The HE is also more useable and radar is arguably more useful than hydro. I feel GS is more of a dedicated cruiser-killer while Kron can be somewhat on par with BBs at maximum range.

[xenopathia]

Krohn is simply boring to play. Played 4 games and that was enough.

As mentioned,  not that it's weak but that dispersion puts me off.

[VC381]

Still not seeing this bad dispersion you guys are talking about...

[xenopathia]

 

[xenopathia]

15 hours ago, VC381 said:

Still not seeing this bad dispersion you guys are talking about...

Sorry for stat peeking but I think this is necessary for you to see:

 

On 7/15/2018 at 10:08 PM, VC381 said:

a) always assumed Kronshtadt had Graf Spee style dispersion already

Your hit ratio with Graf Spee: 36.26 %

On 7/15/2018 at 10:08 PM, VC381 said:

b) feel from my limited experience with Kronshtadt so far that it is a very accurate ship. I have Iowa as well, which is deliciously accurate for a BB, but Kronshtadt to me does not feel like a lottery in the slightest. I've been averaging more citadels per game than Iowa that's for sure.

Your hit ratio with Iowa: 32%

Your hit ratio with Krohnstadt:  31.1%

[VC381]

I'm obviously not immune to perception bias but your comparison is too simplistic. Graf Spee is fairly short ranged and plays against people that barely know how to WASD. Iowa is stealthy so I play it ambush style, getting close for perfect shots. Kronshtadt I play medium to long range and firing all the time.

 

So what does it mean that my hit rate is 1% lower in Kron than Iowa when in one I am spewing shells every 16 seconds at 18 km and the other I am taking calculated shots every 30s at 14km? It means absolutely nothing. In fact if Kronshtadt was less accurate than Iowa I would expect the difference to be much bigger.

 

Anyway Kronshtadt has cruiser sigma while Iowa has lower. When you get a really good shot in Iowa all 9 shells hit the same spot and it's awesome but doesn't happen that often. A really bad shot in Kronshtadt can go all over the map and it's annoying, but most of the time it's consistently good.

[xenopathia]

Stats are simple, I just wanted to share.

And if you are happy with the Krohns dispersion it's all fine. Have fun with it.

[Affeks]

On 25.7.2018 at 11:34 AM, VC381 said:

I'm obviously not immune to perception bias but your comparison is too simplistic. Graf Spee is fairly short ranged and plays against people that barely know how to WASD. Iowa is stealthy so I play it ambush style, getting close for perfect shots. Kronshtadt I play medium to long range and firing all the time.

 

So what does it mean that my hit rate is 1% lower in Kron than Iowa when in one I am spewing shells every 16 seconds at 18 km and the other I am taking calculated shots every 30s at 14km? It means absolutely nothing. In fact if Kronshtadt was less accurate than Iowa I would expect the difference to be much bigger.

 

Anyway Kronshtadt has cruiser sigma while Iowa has lower. When you get a really good shot in Iowa all 9 shells hit the same spot and it's awesome but doesn't happen that often. A really bad shot in Kronshtadt can go all over the map and it's annoying, but most of the time it's consistently good.

Kronshtadt has a much lower time to target than Iowa, which should inflate the hit ratio quite a bit as enemies are less likely to dodge in time and leading is considerably easier.

 

Anyways the data is all there, Kronshtadt has the same dispersion patterns (min V/H dispersion and dispersion) as BBs but has a decent/good sigma. The whole issue here is that the dispersion doesnt match the functionality of the AP mostly since its just that much less universal than BB caliber AP and even slower RoF than crusiers.