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Aulus_Claudius

How to perform best when playing bottom tier?

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This is a request-for-advice thread. I'm far from the best player out there, sitting on a win rate at consistently around 50% +/-3, and feeling like I underperform in many of those battles I win. Most of this is due to my needing to improve my gameplay in general, but a smaller part of this is that I tend to play tier VIII and thus often get matched against tier X ships. I'll be honest, even if I had a ton of tier X ships to choose from, I'd still prefer playing tier VIII - many of the neatest ships, in my opinion, are at tiers VII and VIII, and if I pick VII someone in my division can pick an VIII. Especially where tier X is concerned, even a 2-tier gap seems like a lot, but it's how the matchmaking works and I have to live with it. This means that I have to improve not only generally, which goes without saying, but specifically at being the low-tier ship in a battle.

 

So let me ask some advice of better captains: how does your gameplay change when you find yourself two or even three tiers below the top-tier ship in a battle, especially when over half of the opposing team is at least one tier above you? Are you more passive, waiting for the higher-tier ships to engage so that you can hopefully survive longer? As a BB do you view yourself as more expendable than, say, a Yamato or Kurfürst and thus try to draw fire from him, or let him tank because he can take more of a beating?

 

I feel like I'm just getting the hang of decision-making against at-tier opponents, and am a bit out of my depth when it comes to facing off against an opposing ship with higher stats. Any help is appreciated!

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what i do is that i do not care what tier my oponent is. it has guns/torps and needs to be sunk before it sinks me.

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  • Know your role
  • Know the map
  • Know the opposition
  • Think about how you can support your team the best way without sinking (too early)
  • This will often result in a more passive support role (exceptions can be torpedoboats or some BB)
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Stay at lower tier. Premium ships dont help you learn the game. You are a burden to your team, which can be seen from your stats. 40-45% WR, damage in way beyong average. Stay at T4, learn the bascis. Even T5 isnt good for learning. Once you manage to win ~55% with decent damage (thats a green number) - you can move up.

Oh yea: Use Youtube/Twitch.

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How accurate is the last data from your stats? Since u hid them, its hard to know what ships u are playing currently. But as it seems, u didnt "waste" much time in lowtiers, and bought some T8 Premiums.

Highertier battles differ very much from lower tiers. And u got to get the basics down before u can perform good on higher tiers.

 

A very crucial part when being bottom tier (btw avoid fail divisions (Tier difference), as its the only way u can end up being -3 tiers!) is, to watch at the minimap. Check, what ships are spotted and which will give u a problem. F.e. u play a DD and a Radar Cruiser is spotted going to a Cap where u are heading too. The priority is not to cap ASAP, since its more disadvantageous for your team when u are dead.

U have to learn maps and places where Radar ships are hiding and avoid those. Or vice versa when playing a BB and try to help your DDs by trying to get shots on those Radar Cruisers.
Ofc in lowtiers u dont have Radar, so thats why its easier to learn DD play down there.

 

When u are bottom tier, the more u know about the enemy ships, the better u can perform. F.e. German DD is in a cap where u are? NEVER Smoke up, he has Hydro and will wreck u easily without u seeing him.

I feel BBs can handle -2MM better than Cruisers. They are as tanky as the higher ones, but mostly lack firepower. But dont go solo! T10 Cruiser can easily kill T8 BBs. Move with the fleet and support them.

Playing Cruiser the best advice is Islands when your range is low. Otherwise kite away, wiggle as much as possible without showing broadside and try to get fires. When u charge, its easier to kill u.

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27 minutes ago, Aulus_Claudius said:

This is a request-for-advice thread. I'm far from the best player out there, sitting on a win rate at consistently around 50% +/-3, and feeling like I underperform in many of those battles I win. Most of this is due to my needing to improve my gameplay in general, but a smaller part of this is that I tend to play tier VIII and thus often get matched against tier X ships. I'll be honest, even if I had a ton of tier X ships to choose from, I'd still prefer playing tier VIII - many of the neatest ships, in my opinion, are at tiers VII and VIII, and if I pick VII someone in my division can pick an VIII. Especially where tier X is concerned, even a 2-tier gap seems like a lot, but it's how the matchmaking works and I have to live with it. This means that I have to improve not only generally, which goes without saying, but specifically at being the low-tier ship in a battle.

 

So let me ask some advice of better captains: how does your gameplay change when you find yourself two or even three tiers below the top-tier ship in a battle, especially when over half of the opposing team is at least one tier above you? Are you more passive, waiting for the higher-tier ships to engage so that you can hopefully survive longer? As a BB do you view yourself as more expendable than, say, a Yamato or Kurfürst and thus try to draw fire from him, or let him tank because he can take more of a beating?

 

I feel like I'm just getting the hang of decision-making against at-tier opponents, and am a bit out of my depth when it comes to facing off against an opposing ship with higher stats. Any help is appreciated!

 

When I'm bottom tier, two rules of thumb I try to stick too;

 

1 - Don't try and do anything alone, stick with the team.

2 - Try and take a more supportive role. The longer you survive the more impact you will be able to have later in the match.

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9 minutes ago, Aulus_Claudius said:

This is a request-for-advice thread. I'm far from the best player out there, sitting on a win rate at consistently around 50% +/-3, and feeling like I underperform in many of those battles I win. Most of this is due to my needing to improve my gameplay in general, but a smaller part of this is that I tend to play tier VIII and thus often get matched against tier X ships. I'll be honest, even if I had a ton of tier X ships to choose from, I'd still prefer playing tier VIII - many of the neatest ships, in my opinion, are at tiers VII and VIII, and if I pick VII someone in my division can pick an VIII. Especially where tier X is concerned, even a 2-tier gap seems like a lot, but it's how the matchmaking works and I have to live with it. This means that I have to improve not only generally, which goes without saying, but specifically at being the low-tier ship in a battle.

 

So let me ask some advice of better captains: how does your gameplay change when you find yourself two or even three tiers below the top-tier ship in a battle, especially when over half of the opposing team is at least one tier above you? Are you more passive, waiting for the higher-tier ships to engage so that you can hopefully survive longer? As a BB do you view yourself as more expendable than, say, a Yamato or Kurfürst and thus try to draw fire from him, or let him tank because he can take more of a beating?

 

I feel like I'm just getting the hang of decision-making against at-tier opponents, and am a bit out of my depth when it comes to facing off against an opposing ship with higher stats. Any help is appreciated!

Your question is really hard to answer. Or rather, the only correct answer is completely unsatisfactory: it depends.

 

It depends on the class of ship but also on the quirks of your ship AND on the MM. If there are many bottom tier ships and few top tier ones, you still need to be the main fighting force (especially since there's a substantial risk of the few friendly top tiers to be potatoes). If there are plenty top tiers then it's advisable to play it safe and keep to your support role...

 

However, I'll try to leave a couple general pointers:

1. Make sure you know your ship. It's quite possible that your strong points still hold true even as bottom tier:

 - t8 BB can still one-shot a t10 cruiser

 - t8 US cruiser is still a nightmare for any DD regardless of tier

 - Kagero is the stealthiest DD whether she's in t8 or t10 battle

 - Akizuki on 1/3 hp that manages to ambush a full hp Shimakaze can still obliterate the latter unless she eats a torp

2. Remember that your armament can still hurt top tier ships. You have presence and you are a threat. You ask if you're more expendable in a t8 BB than a t10 BB. Technically that might be true (sure it's better to lose the low tier BB than the top tier one) but it doesn't really change that much. Sacrificing yourself is almost never a good idea - if the top BB is a good player, he shouldn't need your suicide. If he needs your suicide to survive, then there's a good chance he won't be of much use even if you save him. In the end, you're left with the standard BB thing: it's good for enemies to be shooting at you rather than your allies but dying or taking truly crippling damage is hardly ever worth it.

3. Some safer tactics are more resistant to being uptiered - for example lobbing shells over an island is pretty similar whether you do it as t8 cruiser raining fire on t10 BB or a t10 cruiser bullying a t8 BB. I mean, you will obviously be more effective in the latter situation but the tactic works roughly the same.

 

 

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38 minutes ago, Aulus_Claudius said:

and feeling like I underperform in many of those battles I win.

(...)

and if I pick VII someone in my division can pick an VIII. 

(...)

how does your gameplay change when you find yourself two or even three tiers below the top-tier ship in a battle

Yeah...

 

First point, don't do this. It's commonly called "fail divisioning". Division match making is primarily based on the highest tier ship in the division, which means that a T7 ship in a T8 division is often going to be heavily outmatched. Stick to the same tier as the rest of your division, or it's no wonder that you're underperforming.

 

I was going to write more, but... just read what the other guys above me have written.

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33 minutes ago, Uglesett said:

First point, don't do this. It's commonly called "fail divisioning". Division match making is primarily based on the highest tier ship in the division, which means that a T7 ship in a T8 division is often going to be heavily outmatched. Stick to the same tier as the rest of your division, or it's no wonder that you're underperforming.

The matchmaker is better than you think. I am in a division and more often than not we have a 'fail division'.

T6 BB and T7 DD. And we rule, even if we get a T9 match (which happens once or twice in 20 games).

Usually the MM gives us a T6, T7 or T8, which is great. 

 

I'd not say T9 would be a problem anyway. The matchmaker will pose other T6/T7 with the enemy.

 Wrecked a lot of T9s though in my T6 BB, my mate in the T7 DD also had no problems. 

(A T6 DD and a T7BB would be less smart though...).

 

But this seems to be more a case of not applying the right tactics in the first place...

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Vor 13 Minuten, DFens_666 sagte:

How accurate is the last data from your stats? Since u hid them, its hard to know what ships u are playing currently. But as it seems, u didnt "waste" much time in lowtiers, and bought some T8 Premiums.

Highertier battles differ very much from lower tiers. And u got to get the basics down before u can perform good on higher tiers.

Well, not much good it does hiding them when people can just check third-party sites for outdated stats, haha. :Smile_hiding: I don't care about hiding my performance, nor do I mind you or anyone checking it, but I know from other games how people like to use the fact that someone spent money on a game to put them down and make "P2W" accusations. One would think there'd be less hate for the people who keep the game they enjoy F2P. :D Oh well, I'll unhide them as soon as I'm done posting here, since it does no good anyway.

 

Not to bore folks with a biography, but since you asked: back when the game was brand new I had an NA account and played until tier VI before quitting because I found the game too slow-paced and boring. Being EU now I recently started a new account, started to get bored with the pace again, and a friend convinced me to try a premium to get a feel for VII+ before quitting. Well, that solved the slow-paced problem! Now I can't get enough of the game and have several VIII's, but admit I still have a loooong way to go before I'm really good. I still play some low-tier battles, but mainly just for the daily XP bonus with as many XP flags and camos as I can fit on the ship. While I realize it's more forgiving of mistakes and a good place to learn, it's just less fun. Perhaps I need to go back and level a few lines to VIII or so anyway for the practice (the tier X ships don't really interest me much historically - the earlier WWII-era ships are far more fascinating!), but can't say I look forward to that slog.

 

Thanks to everyone else as well for the tips, especially eliastion - I probably overvalue tier somewhat and will try to keep playing to my ships' strengths normally when I encounter this. Also wasn't aware that "fail divisioning" was a named phenomenon or so looked down upon, so that's good to know - I assumed it's considered balanced because the game tries to put another tier -3 ship on the opposing team.

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18 hours ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

The matchmaker is better than you think. I am in a division and more often than not we have a 'fail division'.

T6 BB and T7 DD. And we rule, even if we get a T9 match (which happens once or twice in 20 games).

Usually the MM gives us a T6, T7 or T8, which is great. 

T6 and 7 is probably the least bad fail division, mainly because... well, there are just so few T9 matches overall. Most T9 ships end up in T10 matches. T7 might be the tier that is most often top tier (EDIT: Except T10, of course).

 

Now try the same with a division consisting of T4 and 5 or T7 and 8...

 

18 hours ago, Aulus_Claudius said:

I assumed it's considered balanced because the game tries to put another tier -3 ship on the opposing team.

It won't. Unless someone else happens to be fail divisioning in the exact same way at the exact same time, it's not going to happen. Normal matchmaking is +/- two tiers, maximum, and the game won't force someone else into a bad situation just because you chose to handicap yourself.

 

So if you end up in a T7 in a T10 match, you will in most cases be matched against a T8.

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The new mirror MM is actually quite good at putting a division at different tiers in a game with both those tiers, provided the server population is quite high and queue times aren't long. Also, if you are uptiered it will drag a random to balance your fail. Yes, I have seen a poor solo T7 in a T10 game because he was there to mirror someone in a fail division.

 

As for doing well while bottom tier, basically play to exploit whatever strengths you have while covering weakness. This usually means being a bit more passive and supporting but not always. For example, a lot of T8 ships are stealthier and more agile than their higher tier counterparts, so you can sometimes pull tricks a T10 can't, like being in an unexpected place and getting away with it.

 

Also, play to exploit class countering. A bottom tier DD in a match with few DDs still controls the caps and vision, and is still a deadly threat to BBs. A bottom tier BB is still great at dealing with cruisers. A bottom tier cruiser is still a great DD hunter and generally a versatile little pain in the stern.

 

Finally, remember you only need to play better than the bottom tier ship on the enemy team to have an impact. Relax and do your best, the pressure and expectation is not on you and you will be underestimated. You don't need to hard carry, just punch a bit above your weight. It's more rewarding to do well like that.

 

P.S. the game was too slow paced for you at low tier and you find high tier better?! Are we playing the same game?!

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Play to the strengths of your ship and support your team. Good AA? stay close to BBs, cover them if there is a CV.

HE Cruiser? Burn everything from Max range.

Smoke cruiser, try to sneak in and harras something.

DD? Not much difference. Just don't engage T10 DD's 1v1, spot everything you can, cap if possible, at least contest.

 

Just dont die very early. When things go hot, you'll possibly be the last target people will prioritize.

 

BTW, on some games you can even do something like this:

image.thumb.png.9cd57270ad55aded1d038658e488551e.png

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I think this comes down to picking your targets, and deciding when you need help. As bottom tier, you're going to be more commonly in a situation where should be supporting a higher-tier ship vs. taking charge, and you just need to roll with that.

 

Some ships uptier much better than others. Something like Charles Martel doesn't care too much about going against T10's. You're still really frustrating to hit at T10, provided you WASD hack well. And T10 ships still burn. I imagine the same applies for really good bottom-tier torpedo DD's.

 

By contrast I've never quite figured out how to do well in a bottom-tier brawler BB. You still need to get close, but the BB's you face brawl even better, the torpedo soup gets thicker, etc.  

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7 minutes ago, VC381 said:

The new mirror MM is actually quite good at putting a division at different tiers in a game with both those tiers, provided the server population is quite high and queue times aren't long. Also, if you are uptiered it will drag a random to balance your fail. Yes, I have seen a poor solo T7 in a T10 game because he was there to mirror someone in a fail division.

Ah. Didn't know they'd made that kind of changes.

 

I really would not like to be the poor T7.

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18 hours ago, Uglesett said:

Now try the same with a division consisting of T4 and 5 or T7 and 8...

We did (except I do not have T7 and 8, DDs go a lot faster through the ranges, and that's why).

T3 DD (Vampire), T5BB will usually not work, sometimes does and then you get T5 (in which my mate in the DD has a torpfest).

 

17 hours ago, VC381 said:

The new mirror MM is actually quite good at putting a division at different tiers in a game with both those tiers, provided the server population is quite high and queue times aren't long.

We  (fail division T6/7) got 2 tier 9 matches out of ~20 (whole day). 

But T9 matches is not ALL T9 except us --> there were lots of T8s and T7. 

 

17 hours ago, Zimbit said:

Play to the strengths of your ship and support your team. Good AA? stay close to BBs, cover them if there is a CV.

HE Cruiser? Burn everything from Max range.

Smoke cruiser, try to sneak in and harras something.

DD? Not much difference. Just don't engage T10 DD's 1v1, spot everything you can, cap if possible, at least contest

Exactly. We did good in those T9 matches, I had fun playing the Queen Elizabeth, and the New Mexico. 

I am trying to get a New York in it but so far no luck (no I am not really trying, that's a joke).

Killed a Gneisenau and a Tirpitz, hmmm tastyyyy (that's no joke). Wore them down a bit shooting AP from distance,

and when they came closer hid behind the islands and managed to finalize them (thank RNGesus for that huuughe heal). 

 

Generally though: DDs do not care (much). Torps will damage + 2 or +3 Tiers no problem. They can still spot. 

Just you will be deleted VERY QUICKLY when you get detected - and the higher tiers have more RADAR.

BBs usually do not care either. T7 in a New York? Eat my constant 20km HE spam. Just keep your distance and do not go brawling...

T9 in a New Mexico? LOL, just do not expect to survive any broadside AP... act like you are a (very slow) Graf Spee, or something.

 

Island-cover still works in a cruiser (and I bet insta-delete in the Leander will feel no different, maybe more instant though)....

 

17 hours ago, jss78 said:

By contrast I've never quite figured out how to do well in a bottom-tier brawler BB. You still need to get close, but the BB's you face brawl even better, the torpedo soup gets thicker, etc.  

 

I imagine you'll be good at defending base against cruisers. 

But i don't know, I only have the US and RN, both do well as medium-distance cruiser deleters.

If you meet higher tier BBs, yes indeed the WASD hack, and wear them down before they kill you.

 

In a (fail)division it is easier, your DD mate spots a lone BB and he will go down, no matter.

You take him from left and right as he cannot turn his guns both ways. 

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1 hour ago, Aulus_Claudius said:

Well, not much good it does hiding them when people can just check third-party sites for outdated stats, haha. :Smile_hiding: I don't care about hiding my performance, nor do I mind you or anyone checking it, but I know from other games how people like to use the fact that someone spent money on a game to put them down and make "P2W" accusations. One would think there'd be less hate for the people who keep the game they enjoy F2P. :D Oh well, I'll unhide them as soon as I'm done posting here, since it does no good anyway.

 

I mean, the problem is, when ppl buy themselves into hightiers, and dont do too well, the best course of action is to play more lowtiers. Its the truth, even when ppl dont like to hear it. And ofc most ppl dont because they want to play hightiers for reasons.

For me, its the other way around.

Hightier battles are mostly boring and not much movement is required at first. Gets better when half of the ships are down, but then u get the usual roflstomp and the game is done with very little XP gain... Low/midtiers are usually faster paced with more engagements.

Sure, everyone can play hightier with Premiums, but id always imagine its not much fun when u cant contribute too much.

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1 hour ago, Aulus_Claudius said:

I assumed it's considered balanced because the game tries to put another tier -3 ship on the opposing team.

 

Yea sure. Just throw random people under the bus cuz "I wantz to fail-division." :Smile_facepalm:

I wish people would think their plans through - including the consequences.

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11 minutes ago, ForlornSailor said:

Yea sure. Just throw random people under the bus cuz "I wantz to fail-division." :Smile_facepalm:

I wish people would think their plans through - including the consequences.

Lets say the fail division has a T8 and a T7, and now faces T10. 

You say the MM will grab one poor T7 player and throw him under the T10 bus.

The MM will not do that, and substitute a T8 where the fail division has a T7.

 

The lone T8 stood the chance anyway to get +2 MM, so, can't be considered 'thrown under the bus'. 

I think the 'fail' T7 in the division will be more useful than that solo T8 ship. 

We did a T6/T7 fail division and ended 3rd/5th on the winning team inT9.

 

Failed bunch of T9s more likely. :Smile_medal:

 

 

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16 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

Lets say the fail division has a T8 and a T7, and now faces T10. 

You say the MM will grab one poor T7 player and throw him under the T10 bus.

The MM will not do that, and substitute a T8 where the fail division has a T7.

 

I have seen the MM do this. It prioritises the mirror (enemy team must have ships of same type and tier) over the usual +/-2.

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Just now, VC381 said:

 

I have seen the MM do this. It prioritises the mirror (enemy team must have ships of same type and tier) over the usual +/-2.

I saw it once, I was in a T6BB with a mate in a T7DD, in a T9 game.

Seems we got another T6BB but he may have been in a division too. 

And there were lots of T7 and 8 in the team, not like 10xT9 and the two of us. 

 

I almost killed a T9 (took 80% off his HP) and my mate killed it off, then he killed the other.

They probably thought they were invulnerable. 

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44 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

You say the MM will grab one poor T7 player and throw him under the T10 bus.

The MM will not do that, and substitute a T8 where the fail division has a T7.

 

Its not me that said this, its @Aulus_Claudius

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3 minutes ago, ForlornSailor said:

Its not me that said this, its @Aulus_Claudius

OK, well he is probably right. We had it only 2 times though while we played all day (20 games or more).

And we saw only A FEW T9 ships, most were T7/8. The second time, no other T6 in the enemy team. 

 

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Alle 7/13/2018 alle 18:58, BLUB__BLUB ha scritto:

OK, well he is probably right. We had it only 2 times though while we played all day (20 games or more).

And we saw only A FEW T9 ships, most were T7/8. The second time, no other T6 in the enemy team. 

 

Most likely fail-divisions aswell. Matchmaker loves to *edited* both of them, if he gets a hold of them at the same time. I know what im talking about, we tried this once and got thrown under the bus right away. So did the other division in the enemy team, that though, they were smart.

 

What I more meant, and brought out with a lil sarcasm, was, that a player without a division cant be punished like this (-3 mm) just cuz a division is failing on the other side.

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Oh I don't mind that, and we knew pretty well we could get some T9s in. 

It is just that I do not have T7. Will have soon. 

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