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The problem with game development and game mechanics.

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The problem with game development and game mechanics.


This thing has irqued me for a while now, but it's hard for me to describe. Doesn't make it easier for me that I'm a non-native
English 'speaker' :Smile_hiding: but I will try.

 

I noticed, back when I was still something of a yoloing rookie, that some people disliked WG to (how they described it) "copy+paste an
existing ship, make it a premium and slap a price tag onto it". But otoh I also sense some frustration or perhaps resentment or
jealousy towards having unique premium ships that have a mechanic that is either unique to non-silver ships or implemented in a
more enjoyable way (for example, BBs with torps, this is mostly a premiumship thing).

This is not about some of these premium ships that are OP because of these unique sets of game mechanics they possess (like the
HMS Winfast or perhaps the Kutuzov) but more broader, in what game mechanics, what tech trees could possible be implemented
into the game that add to the game and make a tree unique, have its own flavor.

When there's very little tech trees, this is easy. For instance, designating one tree for close combat or brawling and the other for sniping. That way 2 tech tree branches can be differentiated.

Adding a third? Lets make it somewhere between those two.

 

But once you start getting more and more lines, the notions of "gimmicky lines" start becomming more obvious due to limitations if how to differentiate tech tree branches enough from each other without using some gimmicks.

 

I don't see gimmicks as a bad development in itself. I believe this is somewhat of a necessity if one is to make lines more distinctive
from each other. It adds more flavor to a line of ships, adds unique and more distinguishable lines of ships to the game and
overall makes a game like this one more colorfull.

Another one is balancing new stuff vs the old stuff. Powercreep is one of them, but one is to be careful when judging a course
of actions as being one of purposefully powercreeping in a game like this one, the (lets call them) more unimpressing new
premiums get akinda forgotten and relatively little use.

 

In my opinion I think WG has (during the time that I played WoWS, close to a year now which is longer then I ever played WoT in
a single go) done pretty good work regarding the balancing of new lines while not messing up too badly (and sometimes quite
promptly nerfed some stuff back like the 2 top tier Brit BBs), while adding a unique gameplay mechanic.
The Brit HE BBs I think are actually a nice addition to the game, or at least it has good potential. And it's definitely a
unique and in my opinion interesting branch.

The French BBs were to me a bigger succes regarding how a new and unique line (with respect towards the older stuff) is implemented
correctly, I think they hit the spot right in the middle there! Not OP, but certainly not UP. And definitely unique, though
personally I would've liked to see Strassbourg as a silver ship but who knows, perhaps someday.
But imo I think the French BB line, which added speed boost consumable as a flavor (or gimmick) to this new line, is how
balancing is done correctly.
A couple of the ships are quite daring (like Lyon and Republique) and would make a line as a whole stand out a bit more, but in
itself is not necessary for to make a line interesting enough to receive the wanted attention from players.

 

Adding too much 'exceptions' to the game may even end up clogging up the game with many hundreds or perhaps even thousands of
'unique' playable entities, each with their own specialities, this can be seen in WoT where for me it's totally impossible to
learn all of these weakspots, making me feel like "ok, nevermind, forget it, I'm out!".
At some point one can get fed up with the artificially created 'unique' content, which is a trapping pit filled with spears one would not want to
trap onself into when adding game content.

One wouldn't want to make the game something that is ridiculous, even though WoWS is more an arcade game then a simulator. The
really silly stuff can be confined to events, I think it's proven that this works very nicely with the ingenious halloween
event from last year :Smile_great:

 

 

Long introduction, but this has been in the works for a while now. On to the gimmicky part :cap_haloween:

 

Some new ones may get tested once in a while (like the reload booster during last halloween event, now getting added to Jean
Bart)
What kinds of gimmicks could be feasable to add to this game?

So which unique consumables do we have?

Here's a quick breakdown:

- Damage Control Party
- Repair Party (this one is the heal)
- Smoke Generator
- Engine Boost
- Hydroacoustic Search (sees ships and torps in relative near proximity, relatively long duration)
- Surveillance Radar (sees ships in relative wide area, short duration)
- Defensive AA Fire
- Torpedo Reload Booster
- Spotting Aircraft
- Catapult Fighter

These ones here can be kinda lumped into an armament category:
- Defensive AA Fire
- Torpedo Reload Booster
- Spotting Aircraft
- Catapult Fighter

Now we will be seeing a new one here, primary armament reload booster.
But how about a secondary armament booster for some new brawler ships? (I'm not suggesting the speculated new German BC line,
I'd prefer these have the earlier mentioned torps but this is kinda wishful thinking).
Or something which I believe is not a first time mention, a consumable that lays a couple mines (perhaps in a similar fashion
that puffs of smoke are laid) that last for a certain duration and can be spotted with hydro or only when really up close?
- Secondary armament reload booster
- Minelaying


Hydroacoustic Search and Surveillance Radar use a unique game mechanic, I presume DefAA uses the same one but may kill
aircraft, and smoke is possibly also using similar game mechanics.

One possible new consumable could be a radar jammer but lets not get into that I wouldn't want it myself unless it's for some
event or something
- Radar jammer

With the smoke there are already a couple variations using the same game mechanics, smaller puffs that are generated for a
longer while while some ships (mainly Brits) have fewer puffs but are MUCH bigger.
One unique one is the very short duration one that is basically meant to cover a ship instead of laying a smoke screen (Perth
for example, iirc).

One game mechanic that could be conceived is a puff of smoke that acts basically like the thunderstorms in Hermes, making
accuracy towards ships inside this weird puff of smoke worse. But to me it doesn't fit into the game, or at least how things
are right now, dunno if I'd want this one but it could kinda aleviate the radar meta).
- Distracting Magic Stuff Accuracy Generator, or possibly make existing smokes a bit like this to aleviate the radar meta.

Another one could be a consumable that lays anti-torp nets that last for a little while. This hypothetical consumable could
somehow make it into the game without ruining the flavor of the game. I think this one might actually be interesting, though
I'm not knowledgable enough to know if it's even possible to implement into the game right now due to engine limitations.
- Torpedo Nets (stops movement of torps only, both friendly and enemy torps)


Then there's the speed boost. How about a skill that is kinda like speed boost, but has a small area activation so ships nearby
also receive a speed boost? Call it the "Get out!" or (not so serious) "Get to da exit zone!"-consumable. Raises the alarm,
"full steam ahead", "signal all ships to disengage!", the name is kinda arbitrary but this one might be viable. Duration of its effect is debatable as is area of effect.

Or perhaps an area consumable that repairs other ships (I think this one was mentioned before and was used during halloween
event) or can put out fires (but not floodings), like how ships from those times already could put out fires by using fire
hoses from other ships. Or make it so it can put out only a single fire by having an ally selected when activating the "Put
Fire Out"-consumable. Perhaps it's possible and it could potentially fit into the game.
Perhaps make it so that this doesn't work on one's own ship, there's multiple variations possible here when considering if it's
possible using existing game engine mechanics.
- Area Speedboost
- Area Heal
- Area Damage Control Party


Like the mines mentioned earlier, one could 'drop' heals or heal packages, like a medkit used in some shooters, but dunno how
this could fit into the game.


I wrote this mostly to explore what could be possible within the boundries of what WoWS could offer (apparently something like radar/hydro not going through mountains is not possible for the current game engine, while other options are but are unwanted due to what WoWS is about) and I wrote it for fun.

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2 hours ago, NothingButTheRain said:
Spoiler

 

The problem with game development and game mechanics.


This thing has irqued me for a while now, but it's hard for me to describe. Doesn't make it easier for me that I'm a non-native
English 'speaker' :Smile_hiding: but I will try.

 

I noticed, back when I was still something of a yoloing rookie, that some people disliked WG to (how they described it) "copy+paste an
existing ship, make it a premium and slap a price tag onto it". But otoh I also sense some frustration or perhaps resentment or
jealousy towards having unique premium ships that have a mechanic that is either unique to non-silver ships or implemented in a
more enjoyable way (for example, BBs with torps, this is mostly a premiumship thing).

This is not about some of these premium ships that are OP because of these unique sets of game mechanics they possess (like the
HMS Winfast or perhaps the Kutuzov) but more broader, in what game mechanics, what tech trees could possible be implemented
into the game that add to the game and make a tree unique, have its own flavor.

When there's very little tech trees, this is easy. For instance, designating one tree for close combat or brawling and the other for sniping. That way 2 tech tree branches can be differentiated.

Adding a third? Lets make it somewhere between those two.

 

But once you start getting more and more lines, the notions of "gimmicky lines" start becomming more obvious due to limitations if how to differentiate tech tree branches enough from each other without using some gimmicks.

 

I don't see gimmicks as a bad development in itself. I believe this is somewhat of a necessity if one is to make lines more distinctive
from each other. It adds more flavor to a line of ships, adds unique and more distinguishable lines of ships to the game and
overall makes a game like this one more colorfull.

Another one is balancing new stuff vs the old stuff. Powercreep is one of them, but one is to be careful when judging a course
of actions as being one of purposefully powercreeping in a game like this one, the (lets call them) more unimpressing new
premiums get akinda forgotten and relatively little use.

 

In my opinion I think WG has (during the time that I played WoWS, close to a year now which is longer then I ever played WoT in
a single go) done pretty good work regarding the balancing of new lines while not messing up too badly (and sometimes quite
promptly nerfed some stuff back like the 2 top tier Brit BBs), while adding a unique gameplay mechanic.
The Brit HE BBs I think are actually a nice addition to the game, or at least it has good potential. And it's definitely a
unique and in my opinion interesting branch.

The French BBs were to me a bigger succes regarding how a new and unique line (with respect towards the older stuff) is implemented
correctly, I think they hit the spot right in the middle there! Not OP, but certainly not UP. And definitely unique, though
personally I would've liked to see Strassbourg as a silver ship but who knows, perhaps someday.
But imo I think the French BB line, which added speed boost consumable as a flavor (or gimmick) to this new line, is how
balancing is done correctly.
A couple of the ships are quite daring (like Lyon and Republique) and would make a line as a whole stand out a bit more, but in
itself is not necessary for to make a line interesting enough to receive the wanted attention from players.

 

Adding too much 'exceptions' to the game may even end up clogging up the game with many hundreds or perhaps even thousands of
'unique' playable entities, each with their own specialities, this can be seen in WoT where for me it's totally impossible to
learn all of these weakspots, making me feel like "ok, nevermind, forget it, I'm out!".
At some point one can get fed up with the artificially created 'unique' content, which is a trapping pit filled with spears one would not want to
trap onself into when adding game content.

One wouldn't want to make the game something that is ridiculous, even though WoWS is more an arcade game then a simulator. The
really silly stuff can be confined to events, I think it's proven that this works very nicely with the ingenious halloween
event from last year :Smile_great:

 

 

Long introduction, but this has been in the works for a while now. On to the gimmicky part :cap_haloween:

 

Some new ones may get tested once in a while (like the reload booster during last halloween event, now getting added to Jean
Bart)
What kinds of gimmicks could be feasable to add to this game?

So which unique consumables do we have?

Here's a quick breakdown:

- Damage Control Party
- Repair Party (this one is the heal)
- Smoke Generator
- Engine Boost
- Hydroacoustic Search (sees ships and torps in relative near proximity, relatively long duration)
- Surveillance Radar (sees ships in relative wide area, short duration)
- Defensive AA Fire
- Torpedo Reload Booster
- Spotting Aircraft
- Catapult Fighter

These ones here can be kinda lumped into an armament category:
- Defensive AA Fire
- Torpedo Reload Booster
- Spotting Aircraft
- Catapult Fighter

Now we will be seeing a new one here, primary armament reload booster.
But how about a secondary armament booster for some new brawler ships? (I'm not suggesting the speculated new German BC line,
I'd prefer these have the earlier mentioned torps but this is kinda wishful thinking).
Or something which I believe is not a first time mention, a consumable that lays a couple mines (perhaps in a similar fashion
that puffs of smoke are laid) that last for a certain duration and can be spotted with hydro or only when really up close?
- Secondary armament reload booster
- Minelaying


Hydroacoustic Search and Surveillance Radar use a unique game mechanic, I presume DefAA uses the same one but may kill
aircraft, and smoke is possibly also using similar game mechanics.

One possible new consumable could be a radar jammer but lets not get into that I wouldn't want it myself unless it's for some
event or something
- Radar jammer

With the smoke there are already a couple variations using the same game mechanics, smaller puffs that are generated for a
longer while while some ships (mainly Brits) have fewer puffs but are MUCH bigger.
One unique one is the very short duration one that is basically meant to cover a ship instead of laying a smoke screen (Perth
for example, iirc).

One game mechanic that could be conceived is a puff of smoke that acts basically like the thunderstorms in Hermes, making
accuracy towards ships inside this weird puff of smoke worse. But to me it doesn't fit into the game, or at least how things
are right now, dunno if I'd want this one but it could kinda aleviate the radar meta).
- Distracting Magic Stuff Accuracy Generator, or possibly make existing smokes a bit like this to aleviate the radar meta.

Another one could be a consumable that lays anti-torp nets that last for a little while. This hypothetical consumable could
somehow make it into the game without ruining the flavor of the game. I think this one might actually be interesting, though
I'm not knowledgable enough to know if it's even possible to implement into the game right now due to engine limitations.
- Torpedo Nets (stops movement of torps only, both friendly and enemy torps)


Then there's the speed boost. How about a skill that is kinda like speed boost, but has a small area activation so ships nearby
also receive a speed boost? Call it the "Get out!" or (not so serious) "Get to da exit zone!"-consumable. Raises the alarm,
"full steam ahead", "signal all ships to disengage!", the name is kinda arbitrary but this one might be viable. Duration of its effect is debatable as is area of effect.

Or perhaps an area consumable that repairs other ships (I think this one was mentioned before and was used during halloween
event) or can put out fires (but not floodings), like how ships from those times already could put out fires by using fire
hoses from other ships. Or make it so it can put out only a single fire by having an ally selected when activating the "Put
Fire Out"-consumable. Perhaps it's possible and it could potentially fit into the game.
Perhaps make it so that this doesn't work on one's own ship, there's multiple variations possible here when considering if it's
possible using existing game engine mechanics.
- Area Speedboost
- Area Heal
- Area Damage Control Party


Like the mines mentioned earlier, one could 'drop' heals or heal packages, like a medkit used in some shooters, but dunno how
this could fit into the game.


I wrote this mostly to explore what could be possible within the boundries of what WoWS could offer (apparently something like radar/hydro not going through mountains is not possible for the current game engine, while other options are but are unwanted due to what WoWS is about) and I wrote it for fun.

 

 

 

Let us know when you have a TL:DR for that

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5 hours ago, NothingButTheRain said:

I wrote this mostly to explore what could be possible within the boundries of what WoWS could offer (apparently something like radar/hydro not going through mountains is not possible for the current game engine, while other options are but are unwanted due to what WoWS is about) and I wrote it for fun.

It is possible for the game engine, it is just, according to WG, too complicated for the average player to understand.

 

Also, as for limits, you can introduce all kinds of stuff. You could even give ships some kind of teleport consumable that moves them from one cap to the other, making it more suited to capping D on North and then immediately being useful again. Call it the Philadelphia field or whatever. The options are limitless. Just, at some point you have to ask yourself, how far are people going to suspend their disbelief just because it is an arcade game and at what point it just becomes utterly ridiculous.

 

Honestly, it is pretty obvious you wrote this for fun, because helf the stuff couldn't have been written for serious debate.

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7 hours ago, Riselotte said:

It is possible for the game engine, it is just, according to WG, too complicated for the average player to understand.

 

Also, as for limits, you can introduce all kinds of stuff. You could even give ships some kind of teleport consumable that moves them from one cap to the other, making it more suited to capping D on North and then immediately being useful again. Call it the Philadelphia field or whatever. The options are limitless. Just, at some point you have to ask yourself, how far are people going to suspend their disbelief just because it is an arcade game and at what point it just becomes utterly ridiculous.

 

Honestly, it is pretty obvious you wrote this for fun, because helf the stuff couldn't have been written for serious debate.

What is too complicated for the average player to understand? Where did they mention this?

The thing is that it's not only about thinking up stuff that will never work in the regular games (like a teleporter). And options are in fact not limitless.

 

But like I said, it's hard to explain partially due to me not being native English. I was more thinking in lines of what kinds of tech tree branches could be interesting to see in the future and what gimmicks could/should they use.

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I'm not even going to read this at work on their time...

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Almost read it all, got tired, scrolled down to see how much more, 2paragraphs to go. Thought ok i'll finish it, tried to find where i was, then realized i forgot the beginning..... screw it all.

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Started to SCROLL and SCROLL and SCROLL...

 

Before my mouse got REKT, I quickly checked the players stats to see how relevant the post is. Does it worth to REKT my mouse scroll?

 

Stopped SCROLLING. Time to sheeetpost. 

 

 

 

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9 hours ago, Riselotte said:

It is possible for the game engine, it is just, according to WG, too complicated for the average player to understand.

 

Also, as for limits, you can introduce all kinds of stuff. You could even give ships some kind of teleport consumable that moves them from one cap to the other, making it more suited to capping D on North and then immediately being useful again. Call it the Philadelphia field or whatever. The options are limitless. Just, at some point you have to ask yourself, how far are people going to suspend their disbelief just because it is an arcade game and at what point it just becomes utterly ridiculous.

 

Honestly, it is pretty obvious you wrote this for fun, because helf the stuff couldn't have been written for serious debate.

I can see them doing that in a future Haloween or some sort of thing.

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Only read the first half.

 

Main problem is not that there are gimmicks. Main problem is that Wargaming has forgotten some fundamental principles of balancing, with battleships being the most prominent example. When I started to play WoWs, battleships were tanky, slow, clumsy, easy to spot, and easy to punish by other battleships when misplayed. First exception were German BB with their underwater citadels, but they were merely fitting into the system because their main guns are very unreliable. The following lines were worse. Now we have fast BB with good concealment, good ruddershift, fast turrets and underwater citadels. Anyone wondering why we have BB overpopulation?

 

Same with British BB-HE. HE used to be the reliable low-damage ammo, while AP was the more difficult-to-use high-damage one. Now we have a reliable, easy-to-use, high damage ammo with additional fire potential. Does somebody find the error in this? And HE is not range-dependened - why do we have more and more camping?

 

Gimmicks will make balancing even harder. How valuable is Radar? Does one gimmick nullify a ship's weakness (Main Artillery Reload Booster on a BB - DD und CA players will love this!) or does it only boost some already existent strength? Furthermore, modules tend to create some Pawlov-like gameplay: If X happens, press buttom Y. Not a good addition to gameplay.

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5 hours ago, Oely001 said:

Only read the first half.

 

Main problem is not that there are gimmicks. Main problem is that Wargaming has forgotten some fundamental principles of balancing, with battleships being the most prominent example. When I started to play WoWs, battleships were tanky, slow, clumsy, easy to spot, and easy to punish by other battleships when misplayed. First exception were German BB with their underwater citadels, but they were merely fitting into the system because their main guns are very unreliable. The following lines were worse. Now we have fast BB with good concealment, good ruddershift, fast turrets and underwater citadels. Anyone wondering why we have BB overpopulation?

 

Same with British BB-HE. HE used to be the reliable low-damage ammo, while AP was the more difficult-to-use high-damage one. Now we have a reliable, easy-to-use, high damage ammo with additional fire potential. Does somebody find the error in this? And HE is not range-dependened - why do we have more and more camping?

 

Gimmicks will make balancing even harder. How valuable is Radar? Does one gimmick nullify a ship's weakness (Main Artillery Reload Booster on a BB - DD und CA players will love this!) or does it only boost some already existent strength? Furthermore, modules tend to create some Pawlov-like gameplay: If X happens, press buttom Y. Not a good addition to gameplay.

Thank you for at least reading half of it and responding with your thoughts :Smile_Default:

 

Regarding the balancing (particularly of BBs), I'm not sure I agree with the newer lines being worse when it comes to balancing. I think the French line is an example of how it is done well.

You do describe how trying to add diversity without actually changing the core of how the game plays, it's hardly possible. One could add new BB lines that kinda play the same as the old lines (all with same above-water citadels, all with same and same number of consumables, all with same HE values and reload, you get my point) but the problem with that is that I can imagine this will get old at some point.

 

Suppose WG were to add another USA BB line and use existing ships. Mostly this whole line would also be ships of 19/20 knots till tier 8 or so, and then ships would also be very similar. Why would anyone who has the old USA line unlocked even consider playing the new line of it's just more of the same?

 

I don't agree that we have more and more camping. Unless there's some data that I am missing here.

Besides, I'm a bit sceptical to say the least when it comes to complaints about camping. I've seen people do absurd claims of camping and coward, literally accusing people of being full HP while AT THAT MOMENT they are under 50% health, or accused of camping while actually just having capped a cap as a BB, it's often just totally retarded accusations more reflective of their personal frustration instead of being a constructive observation. How am I to take this seriously?

 

Quote

If X happens, press buttom Y. Not a good addition to gameplay.

But wasn't it always like this?

If hit by a torp and leaking, press Damage Control Party. If on fire, wait 30 seconds then press Repair Party.

Enemy planes attacking you? Press DefAA consumable.

 

How would you propose consumables be used in a different way that is a good addition to gameplay?

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On ‎13‎.‎07‎.‎2018 at 6:35 PM, NothingButTheRain said:

But wasn't it always like this?

If hit by a torp and leaking, press Damage Control Party. If on fire, wait 30 seconds then press Repair Party.

Enemy planes attacking you? Press DefAA consumable.

 

How would you propose consumables be used in a different way that is a good addition to gameplay?

 

Not necessarily. For example, you can play a whole battle with a BB without using a single damage control party. October Revolution has DCP limit of five (with captain skill and premium consumable), and I had no battle where I ran out of DCPs. DCP is a good example for a non-Pawlov-consumable, provided you are at least a decent player. In a BB you can (sometimes have to) ignore fires. In a cruiser you normally have to wait until you killed the enemy cruiser before using your DCP.

 

Another example: Torpedo Reload Booster. I consider this a good consumable. You get a bigger volley alpha in exchange for a very long reload. TRB enhances a ship's strength. On the other side: Main Artillery Reload Booster. An inherent disadvantage of a battleship is the low rate of fire. MARB reduces this disadvantage by half, without any penalty. And battleships are mainly balanced by their disadvantages; taking away the disadvantages you get something you cannot balance properly at all. This is why I consider the Frensh BB line a big mistake, because they are purely balanced around missing some of the normal BB flaws, which are slow speed and few shells per minute. Take Lyon (haven't played it myself, but I know the numbers): This ship is total crap in BB vs. BB fights, but it is a cruiser killing god. How do you balance this? Even the British BB could be balanced around being relatively fragile while having good (not absurdly good) HE. Take Iron Duke and Queen Elizabeth, both are well balanced (what makes them the "stinkers" in the line).

 

In general I consider a consumable which temporarily enhances a ship's strenghs a good consumable, because they are relatively easy to balance (the consumable does not change the ship's general quality, only the quantity of its strenghts). A consumable which mitigates a ship's weaknesses (Repair Party on a destroyer for example) makes this ship very hard to balance.

 

I'm not good in proposing new good consumables, but maybe you got the general idea I am talking about.

 

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