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WhatANiceBoat

Asashio strong - Maybe to strong?

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Good day fellow captains,

 

I've been playing World of Warships for a while now and I can at least say I am not terrible. Not very good either but you understand. I've played quite a range of ships now and I recently bought the Asashio. I've played 16 games now and it is really really strong. I was wondering if it was just me or do allot of destroyer players have the same fealing about this ship? Every BB has absolutly no chance with these torps with 72 knots and such a stealth and 16 of them with the reload booster. Also on paper the guns don't look special, but in game I get the fealing these guns are really hard hitting on other DD's I often utterly destroy other DD's which are known for their guns. This ship might make me never really like any other DD because this one is so good so that sucks. I was wondering what you guys think about this one? This game was one which was allot of fun but I don't even have to try in this ship just relax not just torps also because the guns really hurt other DD's.

 

Regards,

WhatANiceBoat

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Asashio is stronger than any other DD in the hands of idiots against idiots. It is absolute crap against good players.

 

The guns don't "really hurt other DDs". Not any more than any other T8 DD, except C hull Harekaze. But as said, against idiots they work. I guess you could try kite a moron Benson to death. Good luck against a halfway decent player though. You are practically a roadkill. And don't get me started on cruisers...

 

Is the DD "balanced"? Depends on definition. In the way that it is not OP or UP, sure. But it still is utterly devastating in randoms, when anyone who is not an utter idiot plays it against the average enemy team. But well, quite often, the player in Asashio is your average 45% WR window licker who avoids caps like they were minefields, because "Can only torp BBs, cannot cap" or even better, they go there and try torp cruisers or DDs, because they couldn't figure out how torps work. and then this ship is an endless source of frustration for their team.

 

Thanks WG for selling this piece of crap yet again. Thanks for developing it in the first place. Thanks for giving giving us this utter meme DD that is everything wrong with terrible IJN DD play exemplified. Thank you for giving us a DD that caters to the imbeciles that make 20 km Shima so popular WG thinks it doesn't have to fix that. Thanks for giving us a retarded T8 IJN DD, because I guess we IJN players with a brain don't deserve to get a T8 premium DD that is actually good and rewarding with high skill floor and which has actually existed. We deserve to get this...

 

Ah screw it, I think it's clear what I think about this ship and if it isn't, you can search my post history on Asashio. It was a mistake, but sadly not in the Belfast kind of way, so it keeps getting sold.

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Ignore @Riselotte. He's a nice and knowledgeable guy most of the time but this topic triggers him to such an extent he just goes full irrational.

 

In answer to the original question, no Asashio is not too strong. Asashio has a very unique skill set and if you've "clicked" with it like you have then you can farm the tears of battleships forever. You will however have games where you find yourself frustrated. Not as useless as others claim, but certainly needing to play around your weaknesses.

 

As for guns, yes they have great alpha and are accurate. Dedicated gunboats with floaty arcs will fall to you if they're dumb enough to chase you and keep shooting you at ranges where you can easily dodge. That's not unique to Asashio though, that's just an IJN DD thing. People play IJN DDs like they don't have guns, which is a mistake in my opinion. This is not to say you should yolo-gunboat, you will get completely shredded.

 

So yeah, if you like the ship, ignore the hate and carry on. But don't be under any illusions of it being OP.

 

And no, it doesn't make other DDs suck by comparison. If you like Asashio you should really like Kagero, Yugumo, Shimakaze. Same playstyle basically, just adapt to different torpedoes. I see you already play Pan-Asia destroyers. They also have pretty good deepwater torpedoes. Asashio just effortlessly props up your damage numbers, but there are other ways to win games in a DD.

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3 hours ago, VC381 said:

As for guns, yes they have great alpha and are accurate.

Asashio/Kagero/A-Hull Harekaze/pretty much every IJN DD with the 12.7 cm 3rd Year Type:

HE damage per shell: 1,800

AP damage per shell: 2,200

Benson/Loyang/Kidd/pretty much any DD armed with standard-issue USN 5' gun;

HE damage per shell: 1,800

AP damage per shell: 2,100

Ognevoi/Kiev/any DD armed with 130 mm Russian bias guns:

HE damage per shell: 1,900

AP damage per shell: 2,500 (later DDs 2,600)

Z-23:

HE damage per shell: 1,500

AP damage per shell: 3,000

Akizuki/B-hull Harekaze/any DD armed with Type 98 10 cm dual purpose guns:

HE damage per shell: 1,200

AP damage per shell: 1,700

 

I won't say anything about the rest of your post, but it is clear as day that these guns do not have any better alpha than you'd expect of their caliber. In fact, they are the exact same alpha as USN guns in the HE department (and AP use is situational, nor is there a massive difference), being outclassed by the Russian shels that have both better alpha and better ballistics (and better reload, so don't try gun fights with them. Run away using your concealment), and only beating the Germans and the Type 98-armed ships, both which however beat the reload of the Asashio/Kagero/A-hull Harekaze, have AP ammunition that is viable (and immense dps) and have ballistics that are good enough that typically you gain no advantage from your IJN ballistics. Add to that that an Akizuki can use all four of its guns with impunity, because it will never have to fear getting shot by you. Pretty much leaves the USN and PA DDs as the only DDs that can be kited to death, if they oblige, but if you fail at that, straight up, it's a pretty uneven fight.

 

So, accurate, yes. Great alpha, lol no.

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16 hours ago, Riselotte said:

Thanks for giving us a retarded T8 IJN DD, because I guess we IJN players with a brain don't deserve to get a T8 premium DD that is actually good and rewarding with high skill floor and which has actually existed. We deserve to get this...

What about Harekaze? I heard there was something like that even with the "c"-hull somewhere in the east. :Smile_hiding: (and it got THE BEST camo in the friggin game! :etc_red_button::fish_cute_2::cap_haloween:)

 

Asashio is a great ship to troll clueless straightlining BBs nothing more. (oh and farm Liquidator medals on them :Smile_hiding:)

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2 minutes ago, Miessa3 said:

What about Harekaze? I heard there was something like that even with the "c"-hull somewhere in the east. :Smile_hiding: (and it got THE BEST camo in the friggin game! :etc_red_button::fish_cute_2::cap_haloween:)

 

Asashio is a great ship to troll clueless straightlining BBs nothing more.

 

17 hours ago, Riselotte said:

Thanks for giving us a retarded T8 IJN DD, because I guess we IJN players with a brain don't deserve to get a T8 premium DD that is actually good and rewarding with high skill floor and which has actually existed. We deserve to get this...

Harekaze is a made up ship from the anime High School Fleet. Yes, some may say "But there was this one IJN DD IRL that got 10 cm guns on a Kagero hull", but it still is not a real ship. It's an inspired ship. That is not to say the ship is bad, it's damn amazing and actually a worthwile investment if you want to get better at playing the game and not just statpad with farming idiot BBs in the most braindead ways, but nevertheless, it would be great if there was a readily available T8 IJN premium DD based on an actually historical ship. Just like the Loyang sits there in shop all year and is not restricted to once-in-a-blue-moon sales tied to a collaboration of limited time (because we aren't NA here, where it is available till September).

 

And if anyone gets Harekaze, don't use C-hull Harekaze. It is frankly bad. In any possible way. It has no hp. It has no dpm. It has high fire chance but low fires/minute. It still only has Kagero stock torps with Kagero top reload. All it has is turret traverse. Get the 4 captain points for IFHE and use B-hull. Or wait till they buff the 10 cm guns to get 1/4 caliber pen.

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Per shell yes, per salvo though:

 

HE

6-gun IJN 12.7cm: 10,800

5-gun USN: 9,000

4-gun USN: 7,200

4-gun Soviet: 7,600

6-gun Soviet: 11,400

5-gun German: 7,500

6-gun 10cm: 7,200

8-gun 10cm: 9,600

 

AP

6-gun IJN 12.7cm: 13,200

5-gun USN: 10,500

4-gun USN: 8,400

4-gun Soviet: 10,000

6-gun Soviet: 15,000

5-gun German: 15,000

6-gun 10cm: 10,200

8-gun 10cm: 13,600

 

So, second best HE alpha and top 50% AP alpha. Sure, disadvantages in DPM against basically all other DDs but for opportunistic shots when you're fairly safe from return fire (e.g. kiting but can include other situations like ambushes or enemy DD radared) it's a very decent punch. I've used the guns for everything from DD duels to lighting up targets to force DCP before flood, lighting them up after they repair flooding, finishing low HP cruisers late game.

 

As for farming BB noobs, sure there is a lot of that but the high tier meta is also very static and the BBs are sluggish and predictable. Torping BBs hence does not always rely on them being braindead, it's a standard strategy to deny them key positions or remove them so your team can take advantage.

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8 minutes ago, Riselotte said:

 

Harekaze is a made up ship from the anime High School Fleet. Yes, some may say "But there was this one IJN DD IRL that got 10 cm guns on a Kagero hull", but it still is not a real ship. It's an inspired ship. That is not to say the ship is bad, it's damn amazing and actually a worthwile investment if you want to get better at playing the game and not just statpad with farming idiot BBs in the most braindead ways, but nevertheless, it would be great if there was a readily available T8 IJN premium DD based on an actually historical ship. Just like the Loyang sits there in shop all year and is not restricted to once-in-a-blue-moon sales tied to a collaboration of limited time (because we aren't NA here, where it is available till September).

 

And if anyone gets Harekaze, don't use C-hull Harekaze. It is frankly bad. In any possible way. It has no hp. It has no dpm. It has high fire chance but low fires/minute. It still only has Kagero stock torps with Kagero top reload. All it has is turret traverse. Get the 4 captain points for IFHE and use B-hull. Or wait till they buff the 10 cm guns to get 1/4 caliber pen.

But if you use the "a" Hull then it is basically a premium Kagero. :Smile_hiding:

 

But I agree "b"  Hull + IFHE is the optimal/competetive way to play this ship. :fish_viking:

I just like that this premium is so special as it is basically 3 Premiums in 1.

-A-Hull is for training torpedocaptains

-B-Hull is for training akizuki captains (and the most fun)

-C-Hull is a unique premium if you really want something different and requires an own captain which comes with every ship purchase. (though is indeed not really good/strong like you said :cap_old:)

 

If you got Harekaze you simply don't need any more IJN Premium DDs as it is the optimal captain trainer for all DD captains and best in creditearning due to being Tier VIII AND LOTS OF FUN.

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4 minutes ago, Miessa3 said:

But if you use the "a" Hull then it is basically a premium Kagero. :Smile_hiding:

 

But I agree "b"  Hull + IFHE is the optimal/competetive way to play this ship. :fish_viking:

I just like that this premium is so special as it is basically 3 Premiums in 1.

-A-Hull is for training torpedocaptains

-B-Hull is for training akizuki captains (and the most fun)

-C-Hull is a unique premium if you really want something different and requires an own captain which comes with every ship purchase. (though is indeed not really good/strong like you said :cap_old:)

A hull is a bad Kagero.

 

Post-buff to 10 cm guns, there'll be no point to playing A hull anymore.

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The simple fact that Asashio is utterly powerless against cruiser make her bad.

Not being able to hurts DDs besides opportunistic shot isn't that big of a deal. Being unable to hurts CA and CL however is another matter.

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6 minutes ago, Riselotte said:

A hull is a bad Kagero.

 

Post-buff to 10 cm guns, there'll be no point to playing A hull anymore.

Back in the day when I started playing WoT it was normal that the premiums where just a tad worse copies of the techtree Tank/ship. That how premiums should work. Nothing bad at balanced alternative settings though.

 

Like I said I agree that the b hull is clearly the strongest pick and the buff will only make that clearer, but it is nice that it still offers 3 different playstyles for the price of one premiumship.

 

2 minutes ago, ShinGetsu said:

The simple fact that Asashio is utterly powerless against cruiser make her bad.

Not being able to hurts DDs besides opportunistic shot isn't that big of a deal. Being unable to hurts CA and CL however is another matter.

Which is the reason why it will only ever be a "trolling bad BBs" ship.....

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17 minutes ago, VC381 said:

Per shell yes, per salvo though:

 

HE

6-gun IJN 12.7cm: 10,800

5-gun USN: 9,000

4-gun USN: 7,200

4-gun Soviet: 7,600

6-gun Soviet: 11,400

5-gun German: 7,500

6-gun 10cm: 7,200

8-gun 10cm: 9,600

 

AP

6-gun IJN 12.7cm: 13,200

5-gun USN: 10,500

4-gun USN: 8,400

4-gun Soviet: 10,000

6-gun Soviet: 15,000

5-gun German: 15,000

6-gun 10cm: 10,200

8-gun 10cm: 13,600

 

So, second best HE alpha and top 50% AP alpha. Sure, disadvantages in DPM against basically all other DDs but for opportunistic shots when you're fairly safe from return fire (e.g. kiting but can include other situations like ambushes or enemy DD radared) it's a very decent punch. I've used the guns for everything from DD duels to lighting up targets to force DCP before flood, lighting them up after they repair flooding, finishing low HP cruisers late game.

 

As for farming BB noobs, sure there is a lot of that but the high tier meta is also very static and the BBs are sluggish and predictable. Torping BBs hence does not always rely on them being braindead, it's a standard strategy to deny them key positions or remove them so your team can take advantage.

Issue is, the dpm and that the alpha is nowhere close to making up for it. This isn't some Graf Spee vs Nürnberg we're talking here, this is 600 more possible damage in a salvo (given 1/3 on pen). Annoying, but not going to end any ship.

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It seems to boast third best WR of all T8 ships. Only bested by Alabama ST and Massachusetts.

 

So what makes it a bad ship?

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9 hours ago, Altsak said:

It seems to boast third best WR of all T8 ships. Only bested by Alabama ST and Massachusetts.

 

So what makes it a bad ship?

It has to rely on others to kill cruisers for it and is utterly incapable of dealing with a cruiser by itself, unless that cruiser has almost no hp. It also is not good vs DDs and it has no real AA.

 

The reason it fares well is because it's Random battles, where BBs are plenty and where it isn't too uncommon that all the cruisers get themselves deleted by lategame without BB support, if you can kill them. So, statistically, the many games where the ship can make an impact and the team holds up trump the battles where this ship is just utterly useless, because MM decided Screw you, I'll give you an enemy lineup of radar cruisers and 2 BBs or something, or where all your allies died fast enough that you are actually left against cruisers. also, because random teams are often utterly incapable with dealing with Asashio's torp threat.

 

So, if you like that, sure, get Asashio. But for a ship to be genuinely good, it should actually be able to deal with most situations in some way and not be reliant on farming idiots. 

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7 hours ago, Riselotte said:

It has to rely on others to kill cruisers

 

 

Oh noes, teamwork required! Call the nerf police quickly! :fish_nerv:

 

Now there's a good point from you:" random teams are often utterly incapable with dealing with Asashio's torp threat

-BBs just have to git gud.

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2 minutes ago, Altsak said:

 

Oh noes, teamwork required! Call the nerf police quickly! :fish_nerv:

 

Now there's a good point from you:" random teams are often utterly incapable with dealing with Asashio's torp threat

-BBs just have to git gud.

Thing is, if BBs would git gud, this DD would be one of the worst in existence (reason why it pretty much stays in Random and semi-random Ranked, though already in Ranked it suffers, whiler in competitive, you'd get laughed at for having this ship in the lineup). Also, it's easy to mouth off about how a ship that requires teamwork is a good thing but:

  • Asashio itself is likely the most damage farming-oriented and least team-oriented DD, except maybe Russian gunboats. While you can try play a team-focused role, others are better at it and the way the ship is designed incentivises what otherwise would be an utterly terrible playstyle (and still is).
  • Teamwork in random is a miracle.

After all, what are you going to do when a game loads up and either your BBs just die in the most dumb ways to this DD or on the other side, if this DD just goes on its merry hunt for BBs, neglecting any and all other duties of a DD, just to maybe then die to a Cleveland or carrier, because people are too dumb to realise that this ship cannot solo flank at all (if any ship ever can). Tell them to "git gud"? Give a crash course on how to play, just to get ignored and have them die anyway?

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1 hour ago, Riselotte said:

Give a crash course on how to play

 

Actually the good WR tells us that majority of the Asashio players already know how to play a DD effectively. You are describing the minority here. Bad players aren't exclusive to Asashio.

 

What happens when you play an Asashio and the enemy BBs freak out and run away to j10 drying up Asashio damage potential? Your BBs and radar cruisers can now nudge a little closer to the caps negating most of the threats to Asashio. Been there done that numerous times and was an easy win. In essence Asashio has become a teamwork multiplier.

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6 minutes ago, Altsak said:

 

Actually the good WR tells us that majority of the Asashio players already know how to play a DD effectively. You are describing the minority here. Bad players aren't exclusive to Asashio.

 

What happens when you play an Asashio and the enemy BBs freak out and run away to j10 drying up Asashio damage potential? Your BBs and radar cruisers can now nudge a little closer to the caps negating most of the threats to Asashio. Been there done that numerous times and was an easy win. In essence Asashio has become a teamwork multiplier.

Not really. If you look at the WR of T8 DDs you see, the Asashio leads by a good margin for all people, but the more you limit stats to better players, the less impressive her lead becomes and she falls behind the Kidd by an even larger margin. Also the margin of average damage decreases. This tells us that it isn't mostly people who know how to DD that cause this, it is people who are actually terrible at DDs yet are less terrible in the Asashio (because, oh wonder, it is the easiest of all DDs to get something done).

 

The other thing, as stated before, is that Asashio is mostly like this in Random, because you run into people who have no idea how to coordinate and counter or are unwilling to, not to mention it can be terribly unfun, as it starts to become akin to ASW duty. In short, the DD thrives on a meta that WG created in a mistake and would require as proper counter a meta that is hardly being fostered in WGs push to dumb down the game further and further. Which itself is exemplified in the Asashio, a ship that is retardedly easy to torp its one target with (if you cannot torp a BB with an Asashio, it is very unlikely you could have torped it in anything else) andtakes away any and all target selection or skill necessary to set up torps against the more difficult targets.

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2 hours ago, Altsak said:

 

Oh noes, teamwork required! Call the nerf police quickly! :fish_nerv:

 

20 minutes ago, Altsak said:

Actually the good WR tells us that majority of the Asashio players already know how to play a DD effectively. You are describing the minority here. Bad players aren't exclusive to Asashio.

 

What happens when you play an Asashio and the enemy BBs freak out and run away to j10 drying up Asashio damage potential? Your BBs and radar cruisers can now nudge a little closer to the caps negating most of the threats to Asashio. Been there done that numerous times and was an easy win. In essence Asashio has become a teamwork multiplier.

 

This is the point I've been making since the ship was announced in this form. It is unconventional but it basically tries to win by sinking or deterring enemy BBs so your team has more flexibility without this threat. Of course being team reliant can be a bad thing too in randoms.

 

1 hour ago, Riselotte said:

Thing is, if BBs would git gud, this DD would be one of the worst in existence

 

I don't completely agree with this point. At high tiers, even great BB players are prone to sticking to known "good positions" and bow tanking or otherwise being static. They're safe in doing this mostly because DDs who are doing what DDs are meant to do (spotting between the teams, contesting caps etc.) can't get past the cruiser screen to get in range to torp them. Asashio is one of the very few DDs (the others being T10 anyway) that can be where a DD needs to be (sub-optimally I accept, but there nevertheless) while still being able to threaten and shift those pesky BB blockades that stop your team pushing. This is not reliant on the enemy BBs being dumb. Area denial torping is a thing for every DD, and it's not usually cruisers you're trying to deny. Asashio is the best BB denial DD in the game.

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1 minute ago, VC381 said:

I don't completely agree with this point. At high tiers, even great BB players are prone to sticking to known "good positions" and bow tanking or otherwise being static. They're safe in doing this mostly because DDs who are doing what DDs are meant to do (spotting between the teams, contesting caps etc.) can't get past the cruiser screen to get in range to torp them. Asashio is one of the very few DDs (the others being T10 anyway) that can be where a DD needs to be (sub-optimally I accept, but there nevertheless) while still being able to threaten and shift those pesky BB blockades that stop your team pushing. This is not reliant on the enemy BBs being dumb. Area denial torping is a thing for every DD, and it's not usually cruisers you're trying to deny. Asashio is the best BB denial DD in the game.

Assuming that good players don't see Asashio in the lineup and adapt their tactics. Maybe you have a different definition of "good" than me. And the issue is, for area denial alone, you don't need torps to be super stealthy. You just need them to be there, because some bow-camping BB in the usual spot will have to get out or die whether it is Asashio torps or Kagero torps. Just, most other DDs can do other jobs too.

 

And yes, the Asashio might get torps past the DD and cruisers to the BBs unspotted, but guess what. Any other DD doesn't have to pay as much attention to that, because if an enemy DD or cruiser runs over normal torps, it is itself going to die or get crippled, often no less valuable than the BB kill.

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1 hour ago, Riselotte said:

Assuming that good players don't see Asashio in the lineup and adapt their tactics.

Assuming there are optimal tactics with respect to BB positioning, then if a player, regardless of how good, must use different tactics that are less optimal, if they're constantly on their toes or on the back foot by the mere presence of a ship, then Asashio has won a small victory without firing a single shot.

 

1 hour ago, Riselotte said:

And the issue is, for area denial alone, you don't need torps to be super stealthy. You just need them to be there, because some bow-camping BB in the usual spot will have to get out or die whether it is Asashio torps or Kagero torps.

You don't need your torps to be super stealthy but you need them to have the range. 10km Kagero torps can't be used for area denial against BBs, because they simply won't reach. At least, not if you value your own ship. Unless the enemy escorts are incompetent, but then you're saying Asashio only works if BBs are incompetent.

 

The other thing 20km torps allow you to do is to take one cap while doing area denial at another. It's giving a DD cross-map impact it usually can't have.

 

1 hour ago, Riselotte said:

Any other DD doesn't have to pay as much attention to that, because if an enemy DD or cruiser runs over normal torps, it is itself going to die or get crippled, often no less valuable than the BB kill.

The number of BBs in a random game and their overall impact and perceived power is an issue. Any other DD might be better at sinking DDs and cruisers, but there are enough BBs on a team to wipe out all the enemy cruisers, and enough cruisers on a team to radar/deny/sink enemy DDs. Hell, most BBs have no problems wiping out half a DDs health in one salvo once it's been radared. So having a DD that just does more of that is simply not necessary, it's just redundant. On the other hand, having a DD that can surgically target enemy BBs almost irrespective of range or escort is unique and removes a threat on the enemy team far more efficiently than currently anything else in the line-up can (except maybe an AP CV).

 

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Never played the ship but I do know I love it while playing my Benson :)

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Asashio wins by completly removing enemy BB`s from the game (or at least your half of the map), but it can`t win on it`s own.

And as with every team-reliant ship this makes it completly balanced, because no matter how powerful your ship might be your team`s stupidity will always balance you out.

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28 minutes ago, Infiriel said:

Asashio wins by completly removing enemy BB`s from the game (or at least your half of the map), but it can`t win on it`s own.

And as with every team-reliant ship this makes it completly balanced, because no matter how powerful your ship might be your team`s stupidity will always balance you out.

And that is why there will always be just as many people calling it OP and asking for a nerf, as there will be people asking for a buff.

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